Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I tended to assume the shadow's were Mel's, but there could be others he means.

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I always find myself thinking of the shadows dancing in Miri's Tent. The Wolf and the Man Aflame

Not trying to derail, but "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord" could be the Others.

Prologue, GoT

Quote

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness.

 

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce.

 

Quote

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.”

 

Quote

His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

I love that chapter.

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'd agree it's to do with describing destinations - however, I can't see much use for the second part (nuance) given that the White Ravens only carry change-of-season messages.

To expand on your comments re Sam, he had separate raven cages specifically for Castle Black and for Eastwatch, again confirming the 'homing' tendency of your rank and file raven.

I would imagine back in the days of the Singers when they skinchanged with their birds and taught them to speak the messages, the birds would have been more capable of navigating to different locations, too, but that is just a conjecture.

I would argue that the primary role of the white ravens is announcing the changing of the seasons but the fact that they can speak and (possibly) communicate in their own right means that they might be capable of so much more.  For example, when I read the epilogue chapter of aDwD, I found myself wondering who Varys was delivering his monologue to (besides the dying Kevan Lannister).  It couldn't be Varys' Little Birds because they are all part his own network and participants in Kevan's murder.  So who the hell was he talking to when he went on about wanting to preserve the chaos that Cersei created in the Kings Landing and all of the Seven Kingdoms?  Well, maybe he was talking to the Maesters in the Citadel.  When Kevan arrived in Grand Maester Pycelle's chambers the first thing he noticed was the white raven perched in the window.  The herald of the seasons had just delivered news that Autumn was done and that Winter had begun.  Having heralded the changing of the seasons to the Grand Maester himself the white raven will return to the Citadel but since it is capable of speech maybe it will tell the tale of what it heard Varys saying to Kevan to the Conclave of Archmaesters.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

Not trying to derail, but "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord" could be the Others.

Prologue, GoT

I love that chapter.

For a long time this was my default interpretation, and I still think it's a totally valid possibility.

Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are multiple applicable meanings.

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Bloodraven is not the Three Eye’d Crow. In here I will seek to separate the two and see if we can’t decide what is going on, if anything.

Crows and Ravens. What’s the difference, is there one. Our author can’t seem to tell the difference

 

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So the Crow seem’s to be apart from the Old Gods, NOT a part of the Old God’s

What’s that Old Nan?

 

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So what do we truly know? Well, not much really. Here is one thing we are told for instance.

You did a good job of pulling that all together.

That said, the “Crows are all liars” may taken a bit out of context.  My thought is that she is placating Bran.  As in agreeing with him or trying to help him feel better.  Now that old Nan has been carried off to the Dreadfort I may never get to hear her tale of the crow.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     "It was just a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. "I can't fly. I can't even run."    "Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow."      "I don't want any more stories," Bran snapped, his voice petulant. He had liked Old Nan and her stories once. Before. But it was different now. They left her with him all day now, to watch over him and clean him and keep him from being lonely, but she just made it worse. "I hate your stupid stories." The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."/

Granted there may be some truth in her story telling. There is also a possibility that there is some exaggeration/embellishment in her stories as set up in Bran’s first chapter. Story telling is a form of entertainment. Some of the Grimm tales were downright scary. Then there other storys that give a child a warm & fuzzy glow.

A Game of Thrones - Bran I       The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children./

A Game of Thrones - Bran I      "He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."     His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile./

In hindsight I know that the man Eddard beheads is a man from the prologue. The prologue that introduced the Other’s.

I also see the introduction of the name Mance Rayder who is referenced as King Beyond the Wall. Later in the story I am told that Mance is a deserter of the NW and that men of the NW are referred to as crows.

What’s the possibility that the story about the crow old Nan was going to tell Bran was about a NW man? A man such as Mance or LC Rivers or Coldhands?

As this saga begins I am privy to the knowledge that the Other’s exist. The people of Westeros don’t know that. Eddard seemingly paid no heed to words the man said, “The man was half mad.”

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I      She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers.     Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.      "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

 

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked. "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."    "Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder. Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.    His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."     "Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him./

As the saga grows the author builds upon the pieces he starts with revealing more and more of his tale.    Seriously though, it is highly improbable that I will read Old Nan’s story/tale about the crow which may or may not have been about LC Brynden Rivers.

Since you asked for thoughts, if you don’t mind I will come back later with more as it relates to ravens & crows, the 3EC & Lord Rivers and dreams & the old gods. Perhaps with a boring but practical reason why the 125 (?) man being kept alive by a tree stumbles, stutters and sputters with his words. Thanks.

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sure, the story about a crow is likely about the Night's King.  Bloodraven is more tree than man and Bran dreams of the tree together with the crow at times.  They seem to be two separate identities.

Is the bird in Bran's dreams, the 3EC, what folks hinge a second coming of the Nights King on?  I'm sorry LynnS, you are a great researcher so I know you can point me to clues if there are any.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is the bird in Bran's dreams, the 3EC, what folks hinge a second coming of the Nights King on?  I'm sorry LynnS, you are a great researcher so I know you can point me to clues if there are any.

I'm not sure that the original Night's King will resurface in the story unless it's the greenseer that controls the Black Gate.  I do think the story of  the Night's King is being replayed with Jon in that role.  The fantastical elements of Old Nan's tales are just that... they appear to have another explanation.  Although Bran says the 3EC is a liar; Nan isn't talking about birds, she's talking the men of the Night's Watch when she says all crows are liars.  We get the real explanation from Mormont about why the men are called crows and why they are liars. 

I suspect that Jon is the 3EC. Patchface tells us a much when he first sees him:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

Jon isn't a crow, he's the crow.  There is much in Old Nan's tales of the NK to dig into that may have a parallel to the events around Jon.  The NK is the one who's name is not remembered.  This is different from the one who's name cannot or must not be spoken.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

This above passage describes what it would mean to the be condemned, to have your name erased from memory.

Old Nan's stories are like the stories of King Arthur, probably based on a roman military leader, about whom we know nothing. I don't think of Old Nan's stories literally, that the original Night's King is still lurking about, or that the corpse queen was an actual paramour.  I think they are presented out of context.   Rather, I look at current events that might serve to inform the more fantastical elements of Old Nan's stories. 

[Curled Finger]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that the original Night's King will resurface in the story unless it's the greenseer that controls the Black Gate.  I do think the story of  the Night's King is being replayed with Jon in that role.  The fantastical elements of Old Nan's tales are just that... they appear to have another explanation.  Although Bran says the 3EC is a liar; Nan isn't talking about birds, she's talking the men of the Night's Watch when she says all crows are liars.  We get the real explanation from Mormont about why the men are called crows and why they are liars. 

I suspect that Jon is the 3EC. Patchface tells us a much when he first sees him:

Jon isn't a crow, he's the crow.  There is much in Old Nan's tales of the NK to dig into that may have a parallel to the events around Jon.  The NK is the one who's name is not remembered.  This is different from the one who's name cannot or must not be spoken.

This above passage describes what it would mean to the be condemned, to have your name erased from memory.

Old Nan's stories are like the stories of King Arthur, probably based on a roman military leader, about whom we know nothing. I don't think of Old Nan's stories literally, that the original Night's King is still lurking about, or that the corpse queen was an actual paramour.  I think they are presented out of context.   Rather, I look at current events that might serve to inform the more fantastical elements of Old Nan's stories. 

Thank you for helping me understand.    I had no idea this was how Old Nan's tales, Jon and the 3EC figured into the NK.   I'm beginning to get it now.  

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Not to discredit anything, Ser.   I simply don't see any current evidence for the real Nights King to pop up.   Surely there is something else 3EC/Old Gods/COTF/Bloodraven/NW/Giants/Euron/Jon/R'hllor/The Others could intend for someone as gifted and powerful and young Bran Stark.  And thanks for the quote it came to me as soon as I read it.  Agreed, there may be some bet hedging here, but that goes in both directions.   Nights King could still just be a legend.  As you graciously allow, I choose to stay on the side of the fence that offers me myriad possibility.  

We both mentioned Sheira Seastar, Bloodraven's half sister.  Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote, but I feel it's necessary to get us on the same page for this conversation.   Of course we have no idea what types of sorcery the siblings studied, but the word sorcery indicates magic and R'hllor is a religion.  We have no evidence either way if they studied the Lord of Light or not, but it's not magic.  Most of those nutty Targs studied dragons and fire--probably some blood magic, as you allow.  I think if BR & SS were studying or even practicing R'hllorists we would have seen some evidence to support it.   They were half Targ, partial dragons themselves.   Now that you bring it up, R'hllor would be a good fit for the Targaryans, it's just not substantiated.   

Do you care to offer some of this evidence for the NK so that I can weigh it?   Perhaps you've caught something I missed.   I read this entire topic and every post.  It's a good conversation.  

Yea alot have the same opinion and reference GRRM's vague comment as proof that he doesn't exist. Though we know the Wight's are controlled by some one or something. At least the Great Other. Yet, who is the Great Other? The main other? Sounds more like it. There more than likely is a head of their army. It's just kind of the way thinks work, there is always a leader. A head. Since we see no evidence for the Others dying of old age, or any evidence that the Night's King was killed. I feel it's more likely he is the current leader than not. And of course, its the best way to stay open minded  

And yea, no, i just used it as a passing reference to them using some type of Fire Magic, something oft associated with Rhllorism. 

And nope, no real solid evidence like most else. It's just small things like some of what was mentioned above  Im just now getting enough evidence together to be able to post a thread about Bloodraven not being the Three Eyed Crow hahah and sometimes new evidence forces you to look at things different, so we'll see when i get there

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Not trying to derail, but "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord" could be the Others.

Keep it coming!

This is likely a larger topic that does connect to people such as Euron, Patchface and others. Definitely worth bringing up here, and not derailing at all

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

 

You did a good job of pulling that all together.

That said, the “Crows are all liars” may taken a bit out of context.  My thought is that she is placating Bran.  As in agreeing with him or trying to help him feel better.  Now that old Nan has been carried off to the Dreadfort I may never get to hear her tale of the crow.

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     "It was just a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. "I can't fly. I can't even run."    "Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow."      "I don't want any more stories," Bran snapped, his voice petulant. He had liked Old Nan and her stories once. Before. But it was different now. They left her with him all day now, to watch over him and clean him and keep him from being lonely, but she just made it worse. "I hate your stupid stories." The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."/

 

Granted there may be some truth in her story telling. There is also a possibility that there is some exaggeration/embellishment in her stories as set up in Bran’s first chapter. Story telling is a form of entertainment. Some of the Grimm tales were downright scary. Then there other storys that give a child a warm & fuzzy glow.

A Game of Thrones - Bran I       The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children./

A Game of Thrones - Bran I      "He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."     His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile./

 

In hindsight I know that the man Eddard beheads is a man from the prologue. The prologue that introduced the Other’s.

 

I also see the introduction of the name Mance Rayder who is referenced as King Beyond the Wall. Later in the story I am told that Mance is a deserter of the NW and that men of the NW are referred to as crows.

 

What’s the possibility that the story about the crow old Nan was going to tell Bran was about a NW man? A man such as Mance or LC Rivers or Coldhands?

As this saga begins I am privy to the knowledge that the Other’s exist. The people of Westeros don’t know that. Eddard seemingly paid no heed to words the man said, “The man was half mad.”

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I      She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers.     Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.      "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

 

 

 

"Is it the wildlings?" she asked. "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."    "Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder. Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear."

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.    His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."     "Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him./

As the saga grows the author builds upon the pieces he starts with revealing more and more of his tale.    Seriously though, it is highly improbable that I will read Old Nan’s story/tale about the crow which may or may not have been about LC Brynden Rivers.

Since you asked for thoughts, if you don’t mind I will come back later with more as it relates to ravens & crows, the 3EC & Lord Rivers and dreams & the old gods. Perhaps with a boring but practical reason why the 125 (?) man being kept alive by a tree stumbles, stutters and sputters with his words. Thanks.

By all means

As far as Old Nan, i tried doing a thread to kind of show a lot of what she says, and most is pretty on point. I tend to trust Old Nan most times, that being said though.

Leaf-Ghost of HighHeart-Jenny of Old Stones-Bloodraven         I can't help but feel there is something to do with all of this. Like, Bloodraven sent Leaf? or Maybe some one else? I wonder who led Bloodraven to the cave, who was the 2nd to last Greenseerer?

There is definitely much and more to discuss that may be related  

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jon isn't a crow, he's the crow.  There is much in Old Nan's tales of the NK to dig into that may have a parallel to the events around Jon.  The NK is the one who's name is not remembered.  This is different from the one who's name cannot or must not be spoken.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I suspect that Jon is the 3EC. Patchface tells us a much when he first sees him:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

Takes me a while to read through all the comments hahaha just saw this and never noticed that before! See this is why there is much and more to bring in to this discussion that may relate closely or heavily as in the potential case of this

And absolutely on trying to figure out just who is the 3EC! Im in no way certain on who he is and love the catch

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that the original Night's King will resurface in the story unless it's the greenseer that controls the Black Gate.  I do think the story of  the Night's King is being replayed with Jon in that role.  The fantastical elements of Old Nan's tales are just that... they appear to have another explanation.  Although Bran says the 3EC is a liar; Nan isn't talking about birds, she's talking the men of the Night's Watch when she says all crows are liars.  We get the real explanation from Mormont about why the men are called crows and why they are liars. 

I suspect that Jon is the 3EC. Patchface tells us a much when he first sees him:

Jon isn't a crow, he's the crow.  There is much in Old Nan's tales of the NK to dig into that may have a parallel to the events around Jon.  The NK is the one who's name is not remembered.  This is different from the one who's name cannot or must not be spoken.

This above passage describes what it would mean to the be condemned, to have your name erased from memory.

Old Nan's stories are like the stories of King Arthur, probably based on a roman military leader, about whom we know nothing. I don't think of Old Nan's stories literally, that the original Night's King is still lurking about, or that the corpse queen was an actual paramour.  I think they are presented out of context.   Rather, I look at current events that might serve to inform the more fantastical elements of Old Nan's stories. 

The biggest problem i have with this though, is that GRRM has already talked about Jon's death and resurrection and has already hinted at the deeper meaning of it. Jon is a fire wight now. Like Beric or Caitlyn. Or possibly even ColdHands as his eyes are not blue. So though i see some of the parallels you mention, the best bit i think is the quote

14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

Under the sea the Crows are as white as Snow. Jon is Snow, and Patch face calls him the Crow. 

 

Edit- This makes me wanna look more closely at Patches and what all he's saying

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The biggest problem i have with this though, is that GRRM has already talked about Jon's death and resurrection and has already hinted at the deeper meaning of it. Jon is a fire wight now. Like Beric or Caitlyn. Or possibly even ColdHands as his eyes are not blue. So though i see some of the parallels you mention, the best bit i think is the quote

I'm not sure how Jon will be resurrected.  I think Bran's vision of Jon says that he is dead:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

The memory of warmth is used to describe death:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

"I said my farewells to them here, and watched them ride out from that window." She had begged Ned not to go, not now, not after what had happened; everything had changed now, couldn't he see that? It was no use. He had no choice, he had told her, and then he left, choosing. "I can't leave him, even for a moment, not when any moment could be his last. I have to be with him, if … if …" She took her son's limp hand, sliding his fingers through her own. He was so frail and thin, with no strength left in his hand, but she could still feel the warmth of life through his skin.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

So in Jon's case, the warmth of life has fled from him and this is a vision of the future, followed by another vision of what comes next, when Bran peers into the heart of winter.  So it seems that Jon will end up alone in a cold bed.  All the warmth has left Jon's body.  Bran describes Jon as 'sleeping' and I'm not sure that Bran will heed Bloodraven's warning not to seek to wake the dead.

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure how Jon will be resurrected.  I think Bran's vision of Jon says that he is dead:

The memory of warmth is used to describe death:

So in Jon's case, the warmth of life has fled from him and this is a vision of the future, followed by another vision of what comes next, when Bran peers into the heart of winter.  So it seems that Jon will end up alone in a cold bed.

While i agree with most of this, i just always took this for him being dead after the watch stabbed him, and i like most, always just assumed he would be resurrected. 

The thing that should not be named did their thing, what ever it was. GRRM though said else where at the time to do with his resurrection is that the deeper implication was that he was a fire wight now. Though, i dont put it past GRRM to troll people. He's in no way entitled to give up answer's to his book before he prints them. So take that all for what you want, but that's a lil more info surrounding him having said that

Now i dont think for a moment that no matter what, Jon as a fire wight is gonna lead humans to victory in some glorious battle with a climatic showdown between him and the Great Other. So im totally open to ideas on these things and how they could play out in the End Game.

I had an idea about Jon's death and the chances that he will mate with Dany. A dead jon putting a "never born" child into Dany.

The Idea being is that taking control of people isn't easy, as they are still their in the mind (Think of how Bran is only able to take Hodor cause he's mentally scarred by Bran.). So this, would give an empty vessel of sorts, that would possibly share his bloodline.

This is what i've kinda wondered about what the Great Other wants. He wants a human body to rid him self of the curse placed on him by the COTF to be used as their tool of death against humans. 

So Jon, as Azor Ahai, will have to sacrifice Dany, as Nissa Nissa, in that moment they realize the Night's king has taken their baby inside her. Jon will have to run Long Claw through them both. The bitter sweet ending, but it's just an idea

[AlaskanSandman]

Maybe the Other's didn't have a leader till Azor Ahai/The Night's King, and so they were indeed an unwieldy weapon till they placed him at it's head. Though he's playing the board as the Three Eyed Crow and setting up his own pieces, to free him self.

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While i agree with most of this, i just always took this for him being dead after the watch stabbed him, and i like most, always just assumed he would be resurrected. 

I think that Jon will become the heart of winter and the soul of ice.  The heart and soul really represents the mind.  Bran has seen into the mind of the 3EC:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

 

[Rufus Snow]

9 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I would argue that the primary role of the white ravens is announcing the changing of the seasons but the fact that they can speak and (possibly) communicate in their own right means that they might be capable of so much more.

As much as I would like this to be true -  because they are capable of so much more - we are explicitly told:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.

 

... of course, we might postulate they have another purpose on returning to the Citadel

[White Ravens]

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As much as I would like this to be true -  because they are capable of so much more - we are explicitly told:
 

Quote

  Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.

... of course, we might postulate they have another purpose on returning to the Citadel

Thanks  for the reply.  Listening and reporting back to the Citadel would not interfere with their roll of heralding the change of seasons.  As I say, Varys is definitely in monologue mode when he shoots Kevan with a crossbow bolt and he had to have been delivering that speech for someone to hear other than the dying Kevan Lannister.  Perhaps one or more of his little birds is a double agent and he delivered the speech knowing that it would get reported to Littlefinger or maybe evan Olenna Tyrell.  But if the white ravens are capable of speech it is possible that by now the raven on the window sill has returned to the Citadel and the Conclave is now aware that Varys has been feeding political chaos in Kings Landing, is the murderer of Pycelle and Kevan Lannister and is trying to pave the way for Aegon to invade. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Im reading responses but researching right now hahaha checking out Mormont's bird and Patches.

I will say though that i find mormonts ravens usage of "Corn King Jon Snow" interesting mixed with patches calling him the crow.

Mixed with some other things the raven says makes me think the Raven is definitely Jon or Bran, im just trying to look for more to which. 

Quote

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

 

Quote

 "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." 

The Crows are as white as Snow, could also just be the Others are NW memebers like Jon.  But this all still intersting

[AlaskanSandman]

Many of the things the Mormont's raven says are kind of weird.

(Father, Son, girls, obey, wall, know, something, , bones, live, good, fool.) I can't decide if i think the birds trying to say something or just rambling. 

Just taking what i can find in chronological order would go - Corn, Live, Fool, Sit, Boy, Father, Know, Corn, Snow, Old, Fool, King, Old. (Debating if i should pursue more) if corn = death or dead though, then it would read. Dead Live Fool, Sit boy father know dead Snow, Old Fool King, old. - "The Dead live you fool! Sit down boy, you know father is dead Jon Snow, the Old King is a Fool"

If Jon is Corn King Jon Snow, then Dead or death would also work. Jon is the Death King? King of the Dead?

Thoughts?
 

Edit- If you actually look in the book, the time the Raven is saying "Sit Boy Father" is all around the time Eddard is in K.L. causing a raucous and could be his brother Bran trying to tell him about their father. Just a thought