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Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.


AlaskanSandman

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43 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I can't decide if i think the birds trying to say something or just rambling. 

Don't discount what Jon says:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon III

"Crippled," Mormont said. "I'm sorry, boy. Read the rest of the letter."

He looked at the words, but they didn't matter. Nothing mattered. Bran was going to live. "My brother is going to live," he told Mormont. The Lord Commander shook his head, gathered up a fistful of corn, and whistled. The raven flew to his shoulder, crying, "Live! Live!"

Jon ran down the stairs, a smile on his face and Robb's letter in his hand. "My brother is going to live," he told the guards. They exchanged a look. He ran back to the common hall, where he found Tyrion Lannister just finishing his meal. He grabbed the little man under the arms, hoisted him up in the air, and spun him around in a circle. "Bran is going to live!" he whooped. Lannister looked startled. Jon put him down and thrust the paper into his hands. "Here, read it," he said.

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

 

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Just now, LynnS said:

Don't discount what Jon says:

 

 

 

Exactly my point. The birds responses come often around things to do with Jon and his family and warning him of danger.

But if you also take these individual words and string them along with out every body elses words around it, they also seem to form blips of thought also, or things trying to be said.

Also, Bran was thought to possibly be dead at this point and never wake up. So Dead Live is still spot on for what's going on with Jon's brother Bran.

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The birds responses come often around things to do with Jon and his family and warning him of danger.

Should we start calling the bird Uncle Benjen?
 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"I do," said Lord Commander Mormont. "The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?"

"Ben Jen," the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. "Ben Jen. Ben Jen."

The only other name the bird actually speaks besides Jon Snow.

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Should we start calling the bird Uncle Benjen?
 

The only other name the bird actually speaks besides Jon Snow.

While that is an interesting catch. Idk about that hahah i tend to think Benjen is dead and that we'll never see him again. Just a catalyst to set things off. Though i do think we will find out more about him. I could be wrong though. Some still think he is ColdHands

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Many of the things the Mormont's raven says are kind of weird.

(Father, Son, girls, obey, wall, know, something, , bones, live, good, fool.) I can't decide if i think the birds trying to say something or just rambling. 

Just taking what i can find in chronological order would go - Corn, Live, Fool, Sit, Boy, Father, Know, Corn, Snow, Old, Fool, King, Old. (Debating if i should pursue more) if corn = death or dead though, then it would read. Dead Live Fool, Sit boy father know dead Snow, Old Fool King, old. - "The Dead live you fool! Sit down boy, you know father is dead Jon Snow, the Old King is a Fool"

If Jon is Corn King Jon Snow, then Dead or death would also work. Jon is the Death King? King of the Dead?

Thoughts?
 

Edit- If you actually look in the book, the time the Raven is saying "Sit Boy Father" is all around the time Eddard is in K.L. causing a raucous and could be his brother Bran trying to tell him about their father. Just a thought

I don't know what corn is but I read that string of words like: Live fool. Sit boy. Father know. Old Fool? Or Snow old? Fool King, old. 

Doesn't make much sense I guess but when I read it it was like the crow was giving commands to different people. 

Have you ever read the corn code theory? It was debunked but it is still a quite interesting read. 

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3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know what corn is but I read that string of words like: Live fool. Sit boy. Father know. Old Fool? Or Snow old? Fool King, old. 

Doesn't make much sense I guess but when I read it it was like the crow was giving commands to different people. 

Have you ever read the corn code theory? It was debunked but it is still a quite interesting read. 

I think i have heard of it. Which is why i kind of was trying to be careful with how i approached this haha

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34 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While that is an interesting catch. Idk about that hahah i tend to think Benjen is dead and that we'll never see him again. Just a catalyst to set things off. Though i do think we will find out more about him. I could be wrong though. Some still think he is ColdHands

You don't think there might have been some wolf blood in Benjen's veins?  Benjen was the bane of the wildlings; could he have had some skinchanging ability?  I do think Benjen is dead.  The question is whether or not he's having his second life as Mormont's Raven and looking out for Jon that way.  Perhaps the bird was more Benjen's raven than Mormont's, always keeping an eye on the LC while ranging; eating and taking counsel with Mormont just like Benjen.

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You don't think there might have been some wolf blood in Benjen's veins?  Benjen was the bane of the wildlings; could he have had some skinchanging ability?  I do think Benjen is dead.  The question is whether or not he's having his second life as Mormont's Raven and looking out for Jon that way.  Perhaps the bird was more Benjen's raven than Mormont's, always keeping an eye on the LC while ranging; eating and taking counsel with Mormont just like Benjen.

Now that's an intersting idea i hadn't considered seen before. Though it sucks for Mormont that the raven leaves Jon's shoulder to go poo on Mormont's at one point hahaha Benjen was unhappy atm? hahah Definitely an interesting thought and possible! I agree that Benjen could very well have been stronger than Eddard at it, as Lyanna seems to have been in touch with hers a lil. Who knows what would have happened if they had had their own Direwolves to bring out their abilities

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53 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Now that's an intersting idea i hadn't considered seen before. Though it sucks for Mormont that the raven leaves Jon's shoulder to go poo on Mormont's at one point hahaha Benjen was unhappy atm? hahah Definitely an interesting thought and possible! I agree that Benjen could very well have been stronger than Eddard at it, as Lyanna seems to have been in touch with hers a lil. Who knows what would have happened if they had had their own Direwolves to bring out their abilities

It is Mormont's Raven who tells Jon what to do about Othor:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them." 

My uncle's men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he'd pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here …

 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

And suddenly the corpse's weight was gone, its fingers ripped from his throat. It was all Jon could do to roll over, retching and shaking. Ghost had it again. He watched as the direwolf buried his teeth in the wight's gut and began to rip and tear. He watched, only half conscious, for a long moment before he finally remembered to look for his sword …

… and saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him.

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

That's not mimicry.

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8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While that is an interesting catch. Idk about that hahah i tend to think Benjen is dead and that we'll never see him again. Just a catalyst to set things off. Though i do think we will find out more about him. I could be wrong though. Some still think he is ColdHands

I wonder why, since we have Martin himself saying he is not. :)

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Not really quite on topic, but i was meaning to respond on here but got lost reading about Black Stones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blarney_Stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

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 Islamic tradition holds that it fell from heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar. 

Sounds alot like the First Dayne who may have been Azor Ahai/Light Bringer

Which leads to a fun tour through

 

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Christianity[edit]

  • Lucifer, sometimes translated from Latin as "morning star"
  • Jesus, self-described as "the bright Morning Star" in the Christian Bible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star

 

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The Hebrew word, transliterated Hêlêl[10] or Heylel (pron. as HAY-lale),[11] occurs once in the Hebrew Bible[10] and according to the KJV-based Strong's Concordancemeans "shining one, light-bearer".[11] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος[12][13][14][15][16] (heōsphoros),[17][18][19] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

 

Which ties to tree's

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Trees

"Five Trees" in Paradise is a mysterious allegory or concept from famous Coptic Gospel of Thomas NHC 2: (gnostic library from Nag Hammadi in Egypt) 19th saying/logia of Jesus and other sources of religious mythology.

Blatz Translation:

(19) Jesus said: Blessed is he who was before he came into being. If you become disciples to me (and) listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For you have five trees in Paradise which do not change, either in summer or in winter, and their leaves do not fall. He who knows them shall not taste of death.

Which is a fun look through

 

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Which, brings you in a circle to the Black stone

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Black Stone - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

Worship at that time period was often associated with stone reverence, mountains, special rock formations, or distinctive trees. 

 

Just thought id share for those that enjoy real world myth and possible inspiration of ASOIAF. Which is just fun to think about to me and consider Hp Love Craft mythos wrapped up in all this real world myth. :)

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39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wonder why, since we have Martin himself saying he is not. :)

Right haha :) I think inevitably as a writer or creator of any art, that you can't please every one, and must do what you want. I agree with Martin, you want something else, go and write it haha But some like to hope and who am i to poop on that? :) 

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Oh i completely agree! It's definitely something i wanna look into more. Have you more into this?

I did read a very convincing OP somewhere, suggesting that it was Craster who killed Othor and Jafr with his axe, but I don't know where to find it now.  The bird makes a curious gesture seeming to protect Mormont's neck, something that Craster finds amusing:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the Wall."

The raven seemed to like the notion. "Wall," it screamed, spreading black wings like a high collar behind Mormont's head.

Their host gave a nasty smile, showing a mouthful of broken brown teeth. "And what would we do there, serve you at supper? We're free folk here. Craster serves no man."

I'm not sure that I believe Craster when he says that he hasn't seen Benjen since Craster's Keep would the first place he would likely go for information on Mance or a place he might stop off on the way back to the Wall.  Jon's vision of Benjen dead in the snow might be true.  It also appears that an axe was the weapon used to kill Othor and Jafr, a cut to the neck.  Craster complains about his axe and gets a new one from Mormont. 

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Right haha :) I think inevitably as a writer or creator of any art, that you can't please every one, and must do what you want. I agree with Martin, you want something else, go and write it haha But some like to hope and who am i to poop on that? :) 

WRT Coldhands; it has also been suggested that Gared was sent through the Black Gate with the pregnant direwolf.  If that's the case, then Coldhands would need a man of the Watch to say the words and Coldhands would have to take Gared to the door itself.  Benjen is not dead at this point.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Islamic tradition holds that it fell from heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar. 

Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge and becoming god-like is what happens to Bran when he is wed to the tree.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Christianity[edit]

  • Lucifer, sometimes translated from Latin as "morning star"
  • Jesus, self-described as "the bright Morning Star" in the Christian Bible

Specifically, we are told that Dawn is made from the heart of a fallen star.  The key word being 'fallen' rather than falling; the definition of which can include someone who is vanquished or defeated in battle (Arthur Dayne) or someone who has fallen in disgrace; also a fallen angel or soul.  

Curiously when Jon sees the sword hanging in the south; it's not the morning star (Venus) that he sees but the sword in Orion's belt if we are to add astrononmy to the picture.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

 Another curious astronomical reference is the star of the west:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei I

By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. She paused upon the drawbridge that spanned the dry moat, gazing down at the spikes below. They would not dare lie to me about such a thing. "Who found him?"

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The star of the west is Arcturus:\Arcturus (/ɑːrkˈtjʊərəs/), also designated Alpha Boötis, is the brightest star in the constellation of Boötes, the fourth-brightest in the night sky, and the brightest in the northern celestial hemisphere. Together with Spica and Denebola, Arcturus is part of the Spring Triangle asterism and, by extension, also of the Great Diamond along with the star Cor Caroli.

The traditional name Arcturus derives from Ancient Greek and means "Guardian of the Bear", ultimately from "bear" and (ouros), "watcher, guardian".  The Greek name is a reference to its being the brightest star in the constellation next to Ursa Major, the Greater Bear.

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Name "Arthur"

The etymology of the Welsh name Arthur is uncertain, though most scholars favour either a derivation from the Roman gens name Artorius (ultimately of Messapic or Etruscan origin), or a native Brittonic compound based on the root *arto- 'bear' (which became arth in Medieval and Modern Welsh). Similar 'bear' names appear throughout the Celtic-speaking world. Gildas does not give the name Arthur, but he does mention a British king Cuneglas who had been "charioteer to the bear". Those that favor a mythological origin for Arthur point out that a Gaulish bear goddess, Artio, is attested, but as yet no certain examples of Celtic male bear gods have been detected.

This is all very suggestive and I wonder about Martin's use of the term "old bear".

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

I wonder if Dany's 'quardian' was an unidentified Dayne. 

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not really quite on topic, but i was meaning to respond on here but got lost reading about Black Stones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blarney_Stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

Sounds alot like the First Dayne who may have been Azor Ahai/Light Bringer

Which leads to a fun tour through

 

 

 

Which ties to tree's

Which is a fun look through

 

 

Which, brings you in a circle to the Black stone

 

Just thought id share for those that enjoy real world myth and possible inspiration of ASOIAF. Which is just fun to think about to me and consider Hp Love Craft mythos wrapped up in all this real world myth. :)

Another interesting "black rock" is associated with the Phrygian goddess, Cybele.  When her cult was imported into Rome,they also imported one of her symbols a black meteoric stone.:

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At Pessinos in Phrygia, the mother goddess—identified by the Greeks as Cybele—took the form of an unshaped stone of black meteoric iron,[10] and may have been associated with or identical to Agdistis, Pessinos' mountain deity.[11] This was the aniconic stone that was removed to Rome in 204 BC.

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Rome officially adopted her cult during the Second Punic War (218 to 201 BC), after dire prodigies, including a meteor shower, a failed harvest and famine, seemed to warn of Rome's imminent defeat. The Roman Senate and its religious advisers consulted the Sibylline oracle and decided that Carthage might be defeated if Rome imported the Magna Mater ("Great Mother") of Phrygian Pessinos.[40] As this cult object belonged to a Roman ally, the Kingdom of Pergamum, the Roman Senate sent ambassadors to seek the king's consent; en route, a consultation with the Greek oracle at Delphi confirmed that the goddess should be brought to Rome.[41] The goddess arrived in Rome in the form of Pessinos' black meteoric stone.

Initiation into her cult initially consisted of self-castration.  One of her symbols was also a mural crown.  This symbol can be found in ASOIAF as the gold painted crenellations on top of the Queen's crown tower.

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The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart.

So I've toyed with the idea that Mance was/is the three eyed crow... and I'm not convinced, but it's interesting...

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"Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back … or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." Osha stood, her chains rattling together. "I tried to tell your lordling brother. Only yesterday, when I saw him in the yard. 'M'lord Stark,' I called to him, respectful as you please, but he looked through me, and that sweaty oaf Greatjon Umber shoves me out of the path. So be it. I'll wear my irons and hold my tongue. A man who won't listen can't hear."

Of course Mance was/is a "crow", a member of the night's watch. Rather than post a ton of quotes I'll just leave this for those interested in Mance/crow quotes:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=mance+crow&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=tmk&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=twoiaf&scope[]=asos&scope[]=thk&scope[]=trp&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss&scope[]=tpatq

He was in Winterfell when Bran fell.

He is opposed to the Others, in fact it seems that he's been aware and fighting them for as long, if not longer, than anyone else (alive).

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If Mance is dead, the free folk are doomed. The Thenns, giants, and the Hornfoot men, the cave-dwellers with their filed teeth, and the men of the western shore with their chariots of bone … all of them were doomed as well. Even the crows. They might not know it yet, but those black-cloaked bastards would perish with the rest. The enemy was coming.

Mance has raven wings on his bronze and iron helm, I'm not sure how that plays into or against the idea, or how raven wings differ from crow wings (both have feathers anyway)... and what it implies.

And is it possible Mance is a skinchanger? He was somehow able to get Varamyr and other skinchangers to follow him.

 
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"Why did he desert?"
"For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

 

 
Anyway, I know it's crazy, you know it's crazy, but I wanted to throw Mance into the ring a possible 3eC candidate.
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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that I believe Craster when he says that he hasn't seen Benjen since Craster's Keep would the first place he would likely go for information on Mance or a place he might stop off on the way back to the Wall.  Jon's vision of Benjen dead in the snow might be true.  It also appears that an axe was the weapon used to kill Othor and Jafr, a cut to the neck.  Craster complains about his axe and gets a new one from Mormont. 

I still don't know what to make of Craster... on the one hand he seems to have refused Mance's approaches... on the other he has golden arm rings and a sheepskin, both are gifts Mance gave others (Varamyr and Jon):

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Craster's sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. He looked to be a powerful man, though well into the winter of his days now, his mane of hair grey going to white. A flat nose and a drooping mouth gave him a cruel look, and one of his ears was missing. So this is a wildling. Jon remembered Old Nan's tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls. Crasterseemed to be drinking a thin yellow beer from a chipped stone cup. Perhaps he had not heard the stories.

And Varamyr for comparison:

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It was snowing, and Varamyr had lost his own cloaks at the Wall. His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind. I burned and I died and then I ran, half-mad with pain and terror. The memory still shamed him, but he had not been alone. Others had run as well, hundreds of them, thousands. The battle was lost. The knights had come, invincible in their steel, killing everyone who stayed to fight. It was run or die

 

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Mance has raven wings on his bronze and iron helm, I'm not sure how that plays into or against the idea, or how raven wings differ from crow wings (both have feathers anyway)... and what it implies.

And is it possible Mance is a skinchanger? He was somehow able to get Varamyr and other skinchangers to follow him.

His helmet of bronze and iron crested with raven wings reminds me that the King of Winter's crown is bronze and iron tipped with steel swords. And so I'm reminded of previous alliance between the Stark of Winterfell and the King beyond the Wall.  I also suspect that the KbtW who wear no crowns have the distinction of being horned lords represented by giant antlers:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

I'm not sure that Mance is a skinchanger, but rather he has the allegiance of skinchangers, which he certainly employs, if Orell is anything to go by. 

Benjen, on the other hand, tells Jon that the Wall could use a man like Jon, but then backtracks when Jon jumps at the offer.  Skinchangers know another skinchanger when they see one. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

His helmet of bronze and iron crested with raven wings reminds me that the King of Winter's crown is bronze and iron tipped with steel swords. And so I'm reminded of previous alliance between the Stark of Winterfell and the King beyond the Wall.  I also suspect that the KbtW who wear no crowns have the distinction of being horned lords represented by giant antlers:

Nice observations, and interesting that you place the kings beyond the wall as almost Greenmen, who are said to have antlers.

 I'm still partial to the idea that "horned lord" is referring to being in possession of the horn of winter. But I've also toyed with the idea that Joramun was an Other or a king of the Others, making the tale of him and the Stark of Winterfell joining forces to bring down the Nights king super intrigueing... especially as he's also listed among the KBtW who broke their strength on the Wall or against the strength of Winterfell.

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I'm not sure that Mance is a skinchanger, but rather he has the allegiance of skinchangers, which he certainly employs, if Orell is anything to go by. 

I'm not sure either... just throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks... but I've always thought there must be more to Mance than we've leaned so far. 

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Benjen, on the other hand, tells Jon that the Wall could use a man like Jon, but then backtracks when Jon jumps at the offer.  Skinchangers know another skinchanger when they see one. 

Haha but I don't know what the giveaway was, that they are related or that Jon's being followed around everywhere by a white, red eyed, direwolf...

Varamyr seems to recognize Jon's strength of talent also, which might be a better example of recognizing skinchanging in others. But it seemed to me he recognized it in Ghost more than in Jon... if that makes sense. I don't know if a skinchanger can tell another skinchanger if they don't have any beasts about... 

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51 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 I'm still partial to the idea that "horned lord" is referring to being in possession of the horn of winter. But I've also toyed with the idea that Joramun was an Other or a king of the Others, making the tale of him and the Stark of Winterfell joining forces to bring down the Nights king super intrigueing... especially as he's also listed among the KBtW who broke their strength on the Wall or against the strength of Winterfell.

I am as well considering that the horn of winter is likely the small broken horn in Sam's possession.  Of a common type used by the men of the Watch.  So I wonder if Joramun was also a crow who flew down from the wall once upon a time.

53 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not sure either... just throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks... but I've always thought there must be more to Mance than we've leaned so far. 

I do as well.  What was the watch doing taking a wildling boy from a group of raiders in the first place?  Who's son is he really?  Considering that when Craster's mother tried to make a claim on the watch, she was turned away.

55 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha but I don't know what the giveaway was, that they are related or that Jon's being followed around everywhere by a white, red eyed, direwolf...

LOL.  I have to go with the direwolf.  I think Benjen knows more about snarks and grumkins than he lets on. 

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