Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[Clegane'sPup]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What?  Warned?  What do you mean warned? 

"You are a bit more up front than some of the whiners that resort to the bear and the enforcer."

?????????

 

Nunya

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Nunya

Well fine.  I am sorry if something happened on account of our exchange.  It's not something that I would call out the bear and the enforcer for though.  So I am surprised.  

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well fine.  I am sorry if something happened on account of our exchange.  It's not something that I would call out the bear and the enforcer for though.  So I am surprised.  

A person would need to go back through the thread for context.

Your and my interaction had nada to do with nuttin'. Your and my exchange had nothing to do with other  posters remarks.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A person would need to go back through the thread for context.

Your and my interaction had nada to do with nuttin'. Your and my exchange had nothing to do with other  posters remarks.

OK. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

Well, one thing that always struck me about going through the Wall about Bran and his companions is now Jojen simply doesn't seem to have his green dreams anymore, only regular dreams as other boys do, as Meera once put it. That is especially odd since he spends most of his time sleeping due to how frail he feels. It is almost as if he is cut off from whatever magic aids him once he's North of the Wall... indicating, perhaps, that the source of his dreams are South.

Interesting point.

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

So, yes, that does give a pretty strong indicator that Weirwoods are not inhibited by the Wall. Very likely because it is their roots that are networking beneath the earth, allowing them to bypass the magic of the Wall entirely.

I agree. 

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

I don't think he is either. The closest we get to such an indication is from Jojen's reference to Coldhands as "Bran's monster" and Coldhands (potentially) referring to "The Last Greenseer" (and presumably by extension, the 3EC) "Your monster" to Bran. So, in someways, rather than Bran actually being the 3EC he is saying that the 3EC is his monster, which the ravens also agree with.

Whatever Coldhands is saying, it’s cryptic af... but it’s possible the “Your monster,” may be referring as much to the “Stark” as to the Brandon. As you pointed out, Bran calls the crypts “our place” to Rickon. The swords in the crypt:

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By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North.

 

It’s possible that Coldhands is saying the three eyed crow is a Stark monster.

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

It is possible. I have even one or two theories suggesting that Jojen was way off the mark and that Sansa was the winged wolf in need of freeing. The very nature of his dreams means they are up to interpretation, taking on a very similar form to the Ghost of High Heart. It all makes sense in hindsight but during the present, all Jojen can do is... wing it.

Prophesy’s a b, on that I agree. Especially when there could even be multiple fulfillments of a prophesy, adding to the confusion.

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

I personally have always felt that the "winged wolf" dream had so many different meanings. It definitely "unchained" Bran simply by leading to Meera and Jojen being sent to Winterfell. At the beginning of 'Clash', he is becoming very, very isolated and is not spending time with the other children. The kids he has to "play" with are Big and Little Walder, the latter being an insensitive bully. It is on their account the wolves are confined to the Godswood, Rickon upsets Bran further by showing them the crypts and when they do "include" him in their games, it's forcing him to pointlessly keep score. The 3EC trying to "free" him is impossible because Bran has become a prisoner in Winterfell, feeling isolated and excluded.

This is kind of why I kind of almost like Benjen as the 3eC, he’s a crow, was in Winterfell after Bran’s fall, was later north, is a Stark, has two eyes, and is conspicuously missing.

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

What I wish we could find out is what made him drag everyone all the way up beyond the Wall in the first place? What told him that they needed to go North? If we knew what that dream was, would we agree with his interpretation? Or did the 3EC specifically tell him, "Go North, young Jojen!" He never really explains why it is North. He just... tells them it is North.

I want to know if Howland condoned this expedition north... or just sent the kids to Winterfell.

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

Hmmmm, well, the Ghost of High Heart (again) describes who we suspect was Euron Greyjoy as "a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings." Maybe, like his little brother Aeron, he also nearly drowned when he was young and the 3EC visited him then? It might have been so inspiring for him that he took it as his sigil and... drove him mad. 

Euron fits the bill of the drowned crow for sure, especially with the circumstantial evidence.

Hard to know what is going on with him though... 

37 minutes ago, Faera said:

Anyway, I need to go to bed now. Hope I don't miss too much while I sleep. 

Sweet dreams

[maudisdottir]

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bloodraven responds with a question, a problem in itself, that contains two words and Some punctuation... but let me see if I can break it down further for you.

“A” indicates nonspecificity... he doesn’t understand Bran is referring to a particular crow.

”...” the ellipsis is used to show a pause or gap in speech, like BR is searching for understanding.

”crow” leaves off the identifiable three eyes part, and BR goes on to elaborate on it, showing he is talking about a Brother of the Nights Watch and not Bran’s dream or even a crow as in an animal not a nickname for a group of men.

”?” Indicates Bloodraven’s lack of understanding, this is what he thinks Bran is talking about, but we know it clearly isn’t.

I hope this is supposed to be a joke [abusive comment deleted].

And if you read the rest of the paragraph, this does not sound like a confused old man.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I hope this is supposed to be a joke [abusive comment deleted].

Nope, no joke!

A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

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And if you read the rest of the paragraph, this does not sound like a confused old man.

The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words.

I think it does sound like he’s confused, but let’s look at what he says...

I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell.

Presumably he literally means Bran’s first step and first word... as a baby.

But part of your first dream?

We can safely assume Bran had never seen a three eyed crow before his falling dream.

And the next thing he mentions is watching Bran fall (we’ve already covered how watching fits the tree better than the bird)...

So either the old guy is repeating himself, in that Bran’s first dream is also his fall, which would be weird, or he’s been watching Bran long before the fall and the 3eC showed up. 

Just another reason this dialogue makes me reasonably sure that Bloodraven isn’t the 3eC.

[Faera]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting point.

I agree. 

Whatever Coldhands is saying, it’s cryptic af... but it’s possible the “Your monster,” may be referring as much to the “Stark” as to the Brandon. As you pointed out, Bran calls the crypts “our place” to Rickon. The swords in the crypt:

It’s possible that Coldhands is saying the three eyed crow is a Stark monster.

I personally think it’s simpler than that. Coldhands saying the 3EC is “Your monster, Brandon Stark” is him indicating that the 3EC is in service to Bran, or acknowledging that the 3EC is a monster of Bran’s own making.

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Prophesy’s a b, on that I agree. Especially when there could even be multiple fulfillments of a prophesy, adding to the confusion.

A huge part of the Reedlings’ internal conflict is their outlook. Though the elder of the two Meera is youthful and playful while Jojen is old before his time and serious. She is strong, cheerful and speaks to Bran’s personal interests while he is sickly, sullen and speaks to Bran’s greater purpose. She is active, he is passive. She is desire, he is duty. Though Meera is protective of Jojen, he is also the one who routinely pisses her off when saying his green dreams cannot be avoided. It especially angers her when the two things she cares about more than anything are threatened: her prince and her brother. After Jojen has the “Reek” dream, she questions what the point of green dreams are if they can’t be changed. Then when the topic of Jojen’s fate comes up, Meera is bitter and starts crying. The answer to her question is that the things he see are up for interpretation. 

Bran comments at one point that Jojen is the only person who makes her angry — and who can blame her? I imagine a big part of it is how little she must feel she controls her own life, knowing her little brother could have a dream at any moment about what’s going to happen.

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This is kind of why I kind of almost like Benjen as the 3eC, he’s a crow, was in Winterfell after Bran’s fall, was later north, is a Stark, has two eyes, and is conspicuously missing.

Well, while I’m unsure how that would work I have often wondered if Benjen is actually the one skinchanging Mormont’s raven. It being Bloodraven fits more due to his affinity with ravens but it would be so interesting if any of this can be tied back to the Starklings favourite uncle.

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I want to know if Howland condoned this expedition north... or just sent the kids to Winterfell.

I do, too. Everyone always seems to take it for granted that he did but I’ve always been sceptical. All he seems to have done is send his kids to Winterfell to swear fealty to Robb. Jojen only decided what his winged wolf dream meant once he had met Bran, meaning that a Howland couldn’t have possibly told them to take Bran North. The way Meera was arguing in favour of staying at Tumbledown Tower “not bothering anyone” indicates there was no big plan ahead of time.

Frankly, I wonder if Howland is aware at this point of where his kids are. He probably knows they are alive as Jojen seems to know the day he dies, and the indication is he will lie at Greywater, but we don’t know if he has any real means of knowing where his kids went after the sack of Winterfell. If Ramsay’s version of the tale reached him, he might think the Boltons have them hostage. It explains why, despite Roose not trusting them not to attack him, they only took shots at Theon but not Ramsay. It is all very well to say, “Oh, he trained with the Green Men. He must have some magic that can tell him!” Well, we don’t know that. One thing Meera made clear in her story about “the little crannogman who could” is that he didn’t have green dreams - his “powers” seem more in line with what Meera might be capable of. The only thing that might be of help is that he can “talk to trees”, which I often suspected means he can decipher what a greenseer is saying through a Weirwood. So, yeah. Maybe at some point Bran will learn to dial outside of Winterfell to a Weirwood in the Neck where he can update Howland.

Can you imagine that call if he had absolutely no idea what happened to his heirs after the sack?

“Where the heck are you kids?! What? You’re beyond the Wall? In a cave with Brynden Rivers? And Children of the Forest? And there are reanimated dead men outside? WTF were you thinking, Jojen?!”

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Euron fits the bill of the drowned crow for sure, especially with the circumstantial evidence.

Hard to know what is going on with him though... 

 

I just really want to know if he was ever visited by a three-eyed crow! One circumstantial piece of evidence that the 3EC and BR really are connected is the use of crows and a single red eye in Euron's personal sigil

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

Can you imagine that call if he had absolutely no idea what happened to his heirs after the sack?

On the one hand Howland seems to be following Rob’s last orders, holding the Neck and retaking Moat Calin. Although he may well be marching on Winterfell himself with the remainder of Rob’s army and Rob’s will.

The kids meanwhile didn’t make it north completely unnoticed. They spent one night in a cave with a (or the) Liddle, who helps them, and may well know who they are, how could he not with Summer and Bran there.

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The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers."

And the Liddles are now marching with Stannis... still loyal to the Starks, and while they don’t seem to have told anyone, they likely know Bran is alive.

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"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

"Aye!" shouted Morgan Liddle. "Blood and battle!"

 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I want to know if Howland condoned this expedition north... or just sent the kids to Winterfell.

This is such a million dollar question. It is crazy how much potentially rests in the knowledge that Howland Reed holds. He is another link to the past (ToJ), the present (Reed kids sent to Bran), and what other knowledge he has that has an impact on the near future of events (Robb's will, RIverlands info, etc).

 

 

[Faera]

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

On the one hand Howland seems to be following Rob’s last orders, holding the Neck and retaking Moat Calin. Although he may well be marching on Winterfell himself with the remainder of Rob’s army and Rob’s will.

The kids meanwhile didn’t make it north completely unnoticed. They spent one night in a cave with a (or the) Liddle, who helps them, and may well know who they are, how could he not with Summer and Bran there.

And the Liddles are now marching with Stannis... still loyal to the Starks, and while they don’t seem to have told anyone, they likely know Bran is alive.

 

I remember. "Bran and Rickon are alive, Boltons are big, fat liars!" is the worst kept secret in the North.

It is, nonetheless, utterly reliant on someone then safely making their way down to the Neck and finding Howland Reed. That Robb sent two separate parties to go and meet with him shows just how hard the dude is the track down.

I still doubt Howland will be coming out of the woodworks waving Robb's will around alone. While I could see him turning up with what was left of Robb's army to possibly aid Stannis, if it is widely known that Bran and Rickon are still alive then its contents are moot. Either that or he escorts Ned's bones to Winterfell.

EDIT: Though I do wonder if he is ever going to leave his marshland or whether he is even capable of doing so.

 

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

This is such a million dollar question. It is crazy how much potentially rests in the knowledge that Howland Reed holds. He is another link to the past (ToJ), the present (Reed kids sent to Bran), and what other knowledge he has that has an impact on the near future of events (Robb's will, RIverlands info, etc).

2

Yep, he's that character I really just want to have a character sit down and have a chat with.

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

This is such a million dollar question. It is crazy how much potentially rests in the knowledge that Howland Reed holds. He is another link to the past (ToJ), the present (Reed kids sent to Bran), and what other knowledge he has that has an impact on the near future of events (Robb's will, RIverlands info, etc).

 

 

And I'll add the IoF and the Green Men. Howland Reed, man of mystery.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 12/17/2017 at 10:18 PM, LynnS said:

I think there are limitations for time travel. 

Ok, crazy whacked out idea just because.

Is it possible that the three-eyed crow that Bran sees in his dreams is, in fact, Bloodraven after his has gone into the trees and is now coming back to him as a crow in "spirit" (or whatever?). A limited TT that Bran can see because of his green abilities? When Bloodraven is asked if he is the crow, maybe his words sound confusing because this has not happened yet? It doesn't matter how many eyes Bloodraven has (one red, a thousand in one, one root/worm hole, etc), when he is finally joined with the trees, his spirit is the wizened three-eyed crow.

*Just to clarify, I am still leery with time travel in the story. Just trying to work it all out

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Jon and Bran occupy the same space in the present timeline and Bran has established a connection to Jon through Ghost and I think their destiny is bound together. 

Yes. I do agree that the author put certain characters where they need to be for specific reasons. I know that is an "easy" answer, but I do agree that the bond between Jon and Bran both have to do with saving humanity because they are the most well equipped. Both Jon and Bran are far more advanced in knowledge than what their guides expect of them during their courses.

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I don't think Bran can influence just anyone without some kind of green man ability. Although I question whether Howland Reed was influenced at some point.  He is still alive as far as we know.

That seems more reasonable, and maybe one of those things to keep an eye out for in the next books to see if that does indeed happen. Maybe in a similar way that Borroq could tell Jon is a warg.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And I'll add the IoF and the Green Men. Howland Reed, man of mystery.

 

Can someone please give Howland a copy of the books so he can see how very desperately he is needed on scene? STAT!

[Faera]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Can someone please give Howland a copy of the books so he can see how very desperately he is needed on scene? STAT!

Not to mention a big red marker so he can go through correcting everything and crossing out the details that are wrong or misinformed.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Faera said:

Not to mention a big red marker so he can go through correcting everything and crossing out the details that are wrong or misinformed.

I cannot wait for the day that all of the true keepers of history get to sit down with each other by an icy hot fire to laugh and spill the tea over the ridiculous ideas and rumors that are rampant throughout ASOAIF history.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

I remember. "Bran and Rickon are alive, Boltons are big, fat liars!" is the worst kept secret in the North.

Hahahaha for real though this was as much a chance to shout out some casual badasses who I rarely think of, but always make me smile... not even asking Bran who he is, ready to die for the ned’s girl, they’re right up there with knowing no king but the King in the North, who’s name is Stark.

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It is, nonetheless, utterly reliant on someone then safely making their way down to the Neck and finding Howland Reed. That Robb sent two separate parties to go and meet with him shows just how hard the dude is the track down.

Part of me suspects that He’s already moving on Winterfell... and given that the Liddle with Stannis is only the middle Liddle (lol), it’s entirely possible another Liddle went to Howland, as Ned’s most loyal friend.

Also, quick shout out to Buckets... the north doesn’t do enough ‘membering of brave Theo Wull.

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I still doubt Howland will be coming out of the woodworks waving Robb's will around alone. While I could see him turning up with what was left of Robb's army to possibly aid Stannis, if it is widely known that Bran and Rickon are still alive then its contents are moot. Either that or he escorts Ned's bones to Winterfell.

EDIT: Though I do wonder if he is ever going to leave his marshland or whether he is even capable of doing so.

It’ll be interesting to see how the will is phrased... but I have to believe that the forces in the Neck, now that the iron born have been chased off, will be moving to retake the North.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

*Just to clarify, I am still leery with time travel in the story. Just trying to work it all out

At this point, the only hint of it is the Jon-Ghost, Weir-Bran encounter.  This is what I mean by limited use in the story.  Jon and Bran can affect each other because they both become unbound by time. And I wonder if Bran influenced events through Howland Reed as well.  I wouldn't expect anything else.  It's not Dr. Who.  if there was some kind of back-dated contact; I think it already exists in the story. 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hahahaha for real though this was as much a chance to shout out some casual badasses who I rarely think of, but always make me smile... not even asking Bran who he is, ready to die for the ned’s girl, they’re right up there with knowing no king but the King in the North, who’s name is Stark.

Frankly, I'm convinced that Barb knows Bran and Rickon are alive and would probably support installing Bran or Rickon to power (if she could get hold of him) simply because, while she is staunchly loyal to Roose - presumably out of her sentimental loyalty to Bethany and Domeric - she draws the line at Ramsay, a man universally despised and for good reason.

I am curious what the Liddles would make of Ned's will not least because the Flint and the Norrey went to go and see Jon at the Wall and left with a reasonably good impression of him. Truth is, though, I think the North will seek to instal whatever son of Ned Stark they can most easily get their hands on. Since they don't know where the rightful Lord of Winterfell is, our little Bran, trying to hunt down Rickon or secure Jon (if they know about the will) makes sense. 
 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Part of me suspects that He’s already moving on Winterfell... and given that the Liddle with Stannis is only the middle Liddle (lol), it’s entirely possible another Liddle went to Howland, as Ned’s most loyal friend.

 

While I'm not quite on this train yet, it would be cool if Howland, Maege and Galbart all rocked up for the Battle of Ice with everything but the kitchen sink as the last minute save for Team Stannis. Throw in the BwB and you've got a Merry Christmas for me, right there. 

It'd be good if Big Bucket sent word to Howland though the Glover connection is another possibility, too.

Spoiler

 

Plus, in Theon's WoW chapter the two ravens that keep throwing suggestions out... totally Bran and BR. Theon has already been picking up on the natterings in BR's cave; he heard Bran calling him, possibly BR saying Bran's name. So, the idea of him taking a raven's form and being there for the battle would be interesting. Especially if these two ravens turn up again and keep throwing out suggestions.

 

 

 

 

  

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the will is phrased... but I have to believe that the forces in the Neck, now that the iron born have been chased off, will be moving to retake the North.

 

To me, the will feels more relevant to the LSH arc than it is to the Northern conspiracy, though it is often cited. The problem is... would Howland really have forces that will be much help in a traditional battle situation? They're primarily guerilla fighters. Howland has battle experience as GRRM confirmed that he was with Ned throughout the Rebellion (so he was probably at the Bells and the Trident). The question is whether he was part of Ned's "guard" or something, or if he led other crannogmen into battle. Either way, I'd love to see those guys in action with their nets and spears.
 

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I cannot wait for the day that all of the true keepers of history get to sit down with each other by an icy hot fire to laugh and spill the tea over the ridiculous ideas and rumors that are rampant throughout ASOAIF history.

Here, here. Howland and the rest of the Green Men will have a field day. 

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At this point, the only hint of it is the Jon-Ghost, Weir-Bran encounter.

Was that time travel? I thought that was very much a "present" event.

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And I wonder if Bran influenced events through Howland Reed as well. 

Aha, in before Bran Stark was the Knight of the Laughing Tree!

Well, as I said in a post above we know Howland can "talk to trees", which to me indicates that he is simply able to better hear and understand the messages greenseers sent through the Weirwood system. What sounds like an intelligible whisper on the wind to Ned Stark, or small bleats of names to Theon, is probably much clearer to Howland. So, in theory, Bran could talk to a younger Howland through a tree. The problem is that any impact Bran has on the past will be a bootstrap paradox.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Faera said:

Was that time travel? I thought that was very much a "present" event.

I'll have to come back to this another time.  LOL.  Company tonight.  I have to shop and bone up on cornish game hens for christmas and I've never done them before.