Dragonofvalyria

L+B=J

29 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, Faera said:

We get plenty of suggestions that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but there is very little directly stated on her POV about him, other than her crying at his harp playing. The only thing that I remember genuinely making me think she probably did love Rhaegar, in hindsight, was the bit about her clutching dead rose petals...

Again, just speculation, but I always wondered if it was the winter rose garland from the tourney of Harrenhal. :dunno:

That can be a good proof.

It is just that I find quite strange that it is generally accepted that lyanna loved rhaegar when it makes more sense if it wasn t entirelly true. 

Like how she didn t make it public that she wanted to be with rhaegar or informed her familly somehow and why 3 KG had to fight her brother to protect her from him...

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4 hours ago, divica said:

I might be wrong, but isn t the book evidence about how lyanna might have feelings for someone like rhaegar? The only evidence I remember about her caring for rhaegar is she crying when he sings, and even then it might be because of the song. Can you remember any instance when lyanna acts in a way tha might show her love?

The only implication is the rose petals she's clutching on her deathbed, as said. But again, there's supporting text that it wasn't a hateful relationship between the two. But implications come in again, as you see the KG being there for a confrontation with Ned, as I see it as them being there on assignment to protect Rhaegar's child and the woman he loved, while he had to go off to war. Lyanna couldn't exactly come out on her own and stop her brother,  I think they were there to protect child mainly, but also to assure that Lyanna wasn't taken back, against her will or otherwise, from Robert's forces mainly. Ned comes, perceives the situation as them holding Lyanna, as he believes it to be against her will, doesn't know she's pregnant and in labor. Dayne simply says "We're here because our prince wants us to be" as an explanation, recognizes the situation, says his famous line "Now it begins", and they come to swords. I don't know but the fact that Ned softened over the years over his stance toward Rhaegar, how he reacts toward the murder of his children, and how in his POV's it appears that he thinks of Rhaegar with a sort of "fondness" 'I'll say, just makes me feel that he knew how things really were and he knew it from Lyanna.

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18 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

The only implication is the rose petals she's clutching on her deathbed, as said. But again, there's supporting text that it wasn't a hateful relationship between the two. But implications come in again, as you see the KG being there for a confrontation with Ned, as I see it as them being there on assignment to protect Rhaegar's child and the woman he loved, while he had to go off to war. Lyanna couldn't exactly come out on her own and stop her brother,  I think they were there to protect child mainly, but also to assure that Lyanna wasn't taken back, against her will or otherwise, from Robert's forces mainly. Ned comes, perceives the situation as them holding Lyanna, as he believes it to be against her will, doesn't know she's pregnant and in labor. Dayne simply says "We're here because our prince wants us to be" as an explanation, recognizes the situation, says his famous line "Now it begins", and they come to swords. I don't know but the fact that Ned softened over the years over his stance toward Rhaegar, how he reacts toward the murder of his children, and how in his POV's it appears that he thinks of Rhaegar with a sort of "fondness" 'I'll say, just makes me feel that he knew how things really were and he knew it from Lyanna.

I find it hard to believe that the KG would fight ned without saying that Lyanna choose to be there. It feels kind of stupid... However ned was young and maybe hotheaded due to his father and brother's death and didn t believe them. That is possible!

In addition, how would 3KG protect lyanna and her baby at that point? It would be pretty useful to have her brother's help. And I find it odd that the KG lost 7vs3 with 2 northmen surviving. 

However he can t have had a long conversation with Lyanna. That would make him know a lot of secrets that he should have acted upon. Between the profecies rhaegar believed in and probably convinced Lyanna, how someone invented the abduction rumour to start a war and whatever conspiracies were afoot at the time ned would have had to do something! He couldn t just go north to raise jon...

Edited by divica

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He doesn't need to have a long conversation for her to say "I wasn't kidnapped, I left voluntarily, I love him, we had a baby, promise me you'll look after him". No one has to invent anything, this is Robert Baratheon we're talking about. whom was said to have brooded over the insult, and grew resentful of Rhaegar, Brandon felt Rhaegar crowning her at Harrenhal was an insult on Lyanna, Robert initially thought nothing of it, but again grew resentful and bitter toward Rhaegar over time. I don't think either Brandon, or Robert, or anyone of immediate relevance witnessed the actual "kidnapping", other than Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. And Robert whom started the whole "Lyanna was raped a hundred times" thing, as he's said to be the only one who'd claimed it.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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Despite all of the fun we have with it as a fanbase, incest is used pretty sparingly in the story. Other than the Targaryens, Jaime and Cersei, and Craster, there aren't many high-profile incestuous relationships (that are closer than first cousins) described in the main series. I know GRRM likes to present common themes in new surroundings, but I just can't see a new case of brother-sister incest being pulled out of the hat at the 11th hour. After all of the time spent with Jaime and Cersei as POV characters, it wouldn't add a new story element.

Incest and inbreeding seem to serve as a cautionary tale in the books. Cersei did it, and doomed the Baratheon line, and possibly her own. The Targaryens did it, and whether it truly led to the mental instability, infertility, and bad luck that plagued the family, the incest is certainly a convenient foil for blame within the story. Craster's incest with his daughters and granddaughters is presented as dark, twisted, and abusive, and unless more information is later provided, seems to have already served its narrative purpose. (Though I do find it interesting that there isn't much in the books to suggest that any of Craster's offspring are mentally unstable or physically deformed, whereas it was a constant issue for the Targs, and Joffrey is arguably mentally unsound from a very young age.)

Jon seems to be set up as a real or decoy savior in the story. Either way, revealing that he's the byproduct of incest, whether it's consensual or not, would be kind of silly at this point.

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2 hours ago, Steel and Ice said:

L + R = D (aenerys)

If you didn't realize that by now, you're reading the wrong books.

 

Uhm, no. There's a large portion of the fanbase who disagrees with that theory.

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On 12/11/2017 at 6:40 PM, Dragonofvalyria said:

What do you guys think about this theory?

Like a spoon, there is no theory 

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On 12/30/2017 at 9:08 AM, Steel and Ice said:

L + R = D (aenerys)

If you didn't realize that by now, you're reading the wrong books.

What books are you reading? Because they aren't any in the ASOIAF series

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