Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said: Pentos would seem to be the closest city in Essos to Maidenpool. And wouldn't that be interesting considering who lives in Pentos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 On 23/12/2017 at 5:06 PM, Widow's Watch said: Rhaegar's deafening silence during the war, especially when Barristan describes him as dutiful is weird and always feels to me like he just left his life as a crown prince behind. It always makes me wonder if something nasty didn't go down between him and Aerys. From what I remember from WoIaF, they seemed to have been estranged for many years with Rhaegar primarily residing on Dragonstone and rumours circulating that he intended to disinherit Rhaegar. So, it would be interesting if something awful had gone down between him and Aerys, or whether it was a conscious distancing Rhaegar made with the intention of gathering support to supplant his father. On 23/12/2017 at 8:10 PM, Widow's Watch said: And wouldn't that be interesting considering who lives in Pentos. Goodness, I never even thought of that! Heck, if (I know it's a big "if" but still...) he was already in the trading game (I suppose he would have been since Varys had been in KL for a while by this point), it might have even been one of his ships they were travelling on, which in turn means Varys might have been more aware of what was going on than he let on... It would also be interesting if Rhaegar actually met Illyrio as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I read somewhere that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust during the tourney at Harrenhal. I can't find this anywhere now, and like everything with the books, I don't know if it's GRRM himself who said that, or if it's in the app, or if it's something that a reader assumed. If anyone can enlighten me, that'd be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 45 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said: I read somewhere that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust during the tourney at Harrenhal. I can't find this anywhere now, and like everything with the books, I don't know if it's GRRM himself who said that, or if it's in the app, or if it's something that a reader assumed. If anyone can enlighten me, that'd be great. Sounds like something someone has made up, probably without realizing it. Not from the books nor from anything else George has contributed to, so far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Ran said: Sounds like something someone has made up, probably without realizing it. Not from the books nor from anything else George has contributed to, so far as I can tell. Thank you. Some things are just difficult to weed through at this point. I knew it wasn't in the books, so I wasn't sure where it had come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said: I read somewhere that Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust during the tourney at Harrenhal. I can't find this anywhere now, and like everything with the books, I don't know if it's GRRM himself who said that, or if it's in the app, or if it's something that a reader assumed. If anyone can enlighten me, that'd be great. 2 hours ago, Ran said: Sounds like something someone has made up, probably without realizing it. Not from the books nor from anything else George has contributed to, so far as I can tell. Quote Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seem no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. (AGoT 662) bold emphasis added. It is likely Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust. It could have been the reverse, but the challenging of champions in the tourney is described in Meera Reed's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. There is no doubt Rhaegar and Brandon jousted against each other at Harrenhal and that Rhaegar won. Just how did the hot-headed Brandon take his defeat is a question of much discussion in these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Ah, I had been thinking of some extra joust outside the tourney, which definitely did not happen. Yes, but per the tourney format, either Rhaegar challenged Brandon or (and more likely) Brandon challenged Rhaegar. But this was just all part of the tourney, not something special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Do we know the specifics of the Harrenhal tourney? At Ashford knight did challenge other jousters - the champions of the fair maid - but at Whitewalls or at the Tourney of the Hand they could not do that, no? I don't recall us ever learning how the Harrenhal tourney rules were set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 48 minutes ago, SFDanny said: It is likely Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust. It could have been the reverse, but the challenging of champions in the tourney is described in Meera Reed's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. There is no doubt Rhaegar and Brandon jousted against each other at Harrenhal and that Rhaegar won. Just how did the hot-headed Brandon take his defeat is a question of much discussion in these threads. I think it's interesting when we look at the sequence of events as we have them. So if Brandon challenged Rhaegar at Harrenhal, was it because he wanted to see if he was better than him, or was it because of something else? We are told in the world book that Brandon was pissed after Lyanna's crowning that he saw that as a slight against her honor and had to be restrained from going after Rhaegar. And then when he finds out whatever he found out about Lyanna, he rushes to King's Landing and challenges Rhaegar once more. The more time goes, the more difficulty I have buying that all these people met only at Harrenhal. If Lyanna dressed as a mystery knight to avenge someone's honor, then whose to say Brandon didn't cease on the occasion to pass his own kind of message to Rhaegar? And no, I'm not saying that Rhaegar and Lyanna were having some kind of an affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Ran said: Ah, I had been thinking of some extra joust outside the tourney, which definitely did not happen. Yes, but per the tourney format, either Rhaegar challenged Brandon or (and more likely) Brandon challenged Rhaegar. But this was just all part of the tourney, not something special. Just speculation, but given what we know of the politics underlining the tourney, the joust between the two men could mean much more than a simple tourney joust. Let's suppose it is Rhaegar challenging Brandon. Does he do so after Ashara is dishonored? I think so given Ned's account seems to be of the last day of a jousting competition that lasted longer that that. I have put forward the idea in the past that this is a response by Rhaegar to Brandon's use of Elia's lady companion, and Rhaegar's best friend's sister, to send a message to the prince's party. A message of contempt for Rhaegar's political subterfuge. Brandon's conduct with Ashara could well be his way of telling Rhaegar the Starks will have no part in his council to replace Aerys and put the crown prince on the throne. Brandon has no intention of leaving his father's arranged marriage to Catelyn in favor of Ashara, and the Starks have no interest in leaving the alliance with the Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns, and almost the Lannisters in favor of an alliance with Rhaegar's scheme. A rejection, not only of Ashara, but of Rhaegar as well. Does the joust come from Brandon's or Rhaegar's challenge? It likely doesn't matter because if Brandon is challenging Rhaegar it may well be part of the same message. I highly doubt the contest between the two is really just a simple tourney joust. Again, my speculation here, but I think every move the players in the game of thrones made during the Harrenhal tournament was scrutinized for its hidden, and not so hidden, meaning. Certainly Aerys did so. And I think Rhaegar as well if he really organized the event as way of bringing people together to remove his father. My take on Brandon is that he lets his pride dictate the way of his actions. The Starks had spent years building their alliance only to see Aerys move against it at the beginning of the tourney - with the induction of Jaime into the Kingsguard. The Starks and their allies must be livid. But most of the alliance Lords do not attend the tourney - only Jon Arryn and Robert attend while Lords Rickard, Lord Hoster, and Lord Tywin do not show. Instead they leave it for their surrogates to gauge the political winds and deliver their responses. Brandon in the case of House Stark. It is my belief that Rhaegar uses Lyanna to send his own message. Like Aerys with Jaime, he uses the facade of honor to say to the Starks and all the members of their alliance that he stands in the way of these ties. He sees the reaction to his attempt to remove Aerys peacefully and put himself on the throne, and judges that the alliance is a threat to Targaryen rule. He honors Lyanna, and at the same time says he won't let the marriage to Robert go through. He moves from a conspiracy to replace Aerys, to uniting with Aerys against the growing rejection of all of House Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said: I think it's interesting when we look at the sequence of events as we have them. So if Brandon challenged Rhaegar at Harrenhal, was it because he wanted to see if he was better than him, or was it because of something else? We are told in the world book that Brandon was pissed after Lyanna's crowning that he saw that as a slight against her honor and had to be restrained from going after Rhaegar. And then when he finds out whatever he found out about Lyanna, he rushes to King's Landing and challenges Rhaegar once more. The more time goes, the more difficulty I have buying that all these people met only at Harrenhal. If Lyanna dressed as a mystery knight to avenge someone's honor, then whose to say Brandon didn't cease on the occasion to pass his own kind of message to Rhaegar? And no, I'm not saying that Rhaegar and Lyanna were having some kind of an affair. Reading what you wrote it feels like Brandon hated rhaegar and they were oponents. So with the starks marrying with the tullys (brandon), the baratheons (Lyanna), some aliance with the arryns what if Ned was being used to seduce and marry Ashara and bring Arthur Dayne into their side? It does seem like a conspiracy and maybe even a play to get the throne... It does allign with rickard Southern ambitions and why aerys simply burnt him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 2 hours ago, divica said: Reading what you wrote it feels like Brandon hated rhaegar and they were oponents. So with the starks marrying with the tullys (brandon), the baratheons (Lyanna), some aliance with the arryns what if Ned was being used to seduce and marry Ashara and bring Arthur Dayne into their side? It does seem like a conspiracy and maybe even a play to get the throne... It does allign with rickard Southern ambitions and why aerys simply burnt him... I think there was something festering with Brandon with regard to Rhaegar, but I don't think it had anything to do with politics or this political alignment. In fact, I don't think any of these alliances were done for politics to begin with. But I know I'm pretty much in my corner on this one, and that's okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said: I think there was something festering with Brandon with regard to Rhaegar, but I don't think it had anything to do with politics or this political alignment. In fact, I don't think any of these alliances were done for politics to begin with. But I know I'm pretty much in my corner on this one, and that's okay It certainly would be interesting if there was a budding resentment between Brandon and Rhaegar. Got to admit, you have me curious about what is in your corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 I also tend to think that Brandon's response to Rhaegar's actions suggests some personal beef but I'm not sure if it was mutual. If Rhaegar knew about Ashara's dishonour, then perhaps, but if he did not, I do not see him developing any spite for Brandon. On the other hand, Brandon does seem the type who wouldn't take well competition: he is this attractive, bold guy, used to getting what he wants, the alpha of the Stark family, a competent jouster - and then he is bested by the guy who outshines him in the ladies' department. What a blow to an ego. I like the political angle behind the actions but while they may be interpreted in the political light, not just by readers but by the participants of the tourney, they may not be necessarily politically driven. But I don't think the crowning was dricven politically at all, the description of Rhaegar's stunning victory that day resembles Jorah's one victory too much to be coincidental, and his desire to crown Lynesse was personal, not political. I believe we are supposed to surmise that Rhaegar was simply smitten, the first time in his life, just like Jorah was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Ygrain said: I also tend to think that Brandon's response to Rhaegar's actions suggests some personal beef but I'm not sure if it was mutual. I don't think it was a mutual resentment. I think Brandon's possible challenge at the joust, though I'm sure he was not the only challenger, his reaction to the crowning, his rush to King's Landing, for me, it suggests that Brandon had a problem with Rhaegar early on and earlier than Harrenhal. And I think his problem with Rhaegar was directly linked to Lyanna. I find there are two things that are consistently and constantly dismissed from what Meera tells us about the tourney. The first one is that the KotlT didn't just run away after they won their jousts. They were there to ransom the armors and horses. And Aerys didn't send Rhaegar to look for the mystery knight until the following morning when they were a no show. I think this is pretty important to the overall story. 4 hours ago, Ygrain said: I like the political angle behind the actions but while they may be interpreted in the political light, not just by readers but by the participants of the tourney, they may not be necessarily politically driven. But I don't think the crowning was dricven politically at all, the description of Rhaegar's stunning victory that day resembles Jorah's one victory too much to be coincidental, and his desire to crown Lynesse was personal, not political. This is an interesting connection and one I never thought of. I don't think the crowning was politically driven either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 23 hours ago, SFDanny said: Just speculation, but given what we know of the politics underlining the tourney, the joust between the two men could mean much more than a simple tourney joust. Let's suppose it is Rhaegar challenging Brandon. Does he do so after Ashara is dishonored? I think so given Ned's account seems to be of the last day of a jousting competition that lasted longer that that. I read your theory and there are some things I need to clear out, what is Ashara's role in it ? I mean what was she supposed to accomplished in the first place ? Also I don't get your wording. Was she dishonored when she willingly slept with an widely known betrothed man ? If that's so I have to disagree, the dishonor occured (yeah that's kind of hypocritical) when it was known that she was a unmarried pregnant lady, before that I'm not even sure it was known she had had sexual intercourses at Harrenhal. At any rate very few were aware of her affair (that's how I view it) with elder Stark even years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 10 hours ago, Ygrain said: I also tend to think that Brandon's response to Rhaegar's actions suggests some personal beef but I'm not sure if it was mutual. If Rhaegar knew about Ashara's dishonour, then perhaps, but if he did not, I do not see him developing any spite for Brandon. On the other hand, Brandon does seem the type who wouldn't take well competition: he is this attractive, bold guy, used to getting what he wants, the alpha of the Stark family, a competent jouster - and then he is bested by the guy who outshines him in the ladies' department. What a blow to an ego. What is your opinion on the relationship between Brandon and Robert, another potential "rival" (handsome, great warrior, alpha persona...) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 20 hours ago, Kal-L said: What is your opinion on the relationship between Brandon and Robert, another potential "rival" (handsome, great warrior, alpha persona...) ? Never really thought about it before, but I don't see the two clashing so much. Robert seemed easy-going, and excelling in a bit different fields than Brandon - Brandon was a swordsman and jouster, Robert had his warhammer. Brandon seemed to have a thing for higborn girls, Robert was more into common wenches. Brandon was a leader of the Stark pack, Robert didn't seem to desire leadership that much even though he certainly liked having things his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 On 01/01/2018 at 7:10 PM, Kal-L said: What is your opinion on the relationship between Brandon and Robert, another potential "rival" (handsome, great warrior, alpha persona...) ? If I recall correctly, Cersei remembers in AFfC that Robert was more of a melee fighter than a jouster. So, I doubt Brandon would have seen him as a serious rival since it doesn't seem Bobby B ever really took jousting seriously compared to Brandon, who was a skilled horseman and probably saw jousting as his forte. Plus, he was his younger brother's friend so I imagine they were at best amicable. No reason to suggest otherwise. Plus, as Ygrain pointed put, even their tastes in women seems to have differed. In comparison, Rhaegar was someone who perceived being a warrior as his duty and was "that guy" who naturally excelled at most anything he tried. It is easier to see how these two might butt heads - or at least why Brandon would butt his head with Rhaegar. Being unhorsed by Rhaegar probably was a massive dent to his pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 33 minutes ago, Faera said: Being unhorsed by Rhaegar probably was a massive dent to his pride. That's what I think, too. The guy unhorsed him in front of the lady whom Brandon was trying to impress - what an affront! Once, I posted a speculation about whom Brandon might have crowned, had he won - whether he would have crowned the little sis, or cause a scandal by crowning Ashara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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