R+L=J v.165

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While it is not impossible that there is stuff in Lyanna's grave, it would be both tasteless and childish to actually make use of that awfully convenient plot device.

In what kind of scenario does a child actually desecrate the grave of his own mother? What could be gained by shoving Lyanna's rotting, stinking corpse into the face of the reader (and Jon Snow)?

Jon is not going to investigate Lyanna's tomb unless he has a good reason to do so. Which means he'll already know who he his mother is at that point. And if he knows that, he won't require further 'proof', nor should he ever contemplate looking for it in his mother's grave.

For Jon, Howland Reed, Wylla, and Bran (especially him, if he is going to play the role of an old god when revealing this) will be more than enough to convince him of his true parentage

The crypts are important for Jon because his mother is down there. He'll learn that eventually, and then he'll pay her his respects, just as he is likely to pay Ned his respect once the man's bones are finally interred in the crypts beneath Winterfell.

The idea that some stupid artifact - be it some harp, a letter (which should be in pretty bad shape after spending years in the moist environment of the Winterfell crypts), or whatever else - is going to have an important impact on Jon (or whoever else finds this stuff) doesn't sound very plausible to me.

Even if people were to recognize Rhaegar's harp - it being in Lyanna's tomb doesn't help at all connecting Jon Snow to either Lyanna Stark or Rhaegar Targaryen. The fact that Lyanna and Rhaegar may have been in love - and even married (at least in their own minds) - might already be well known. But them loving and fucking each other doesn't Jon Snow their son, does it?

Jon could learn about the Rhaegar-Lyanna romance in a much simpler and less cheesy way, and he is likely to do just that. Just as Bran didn't need to find things hidden in Winterfell to learn about Harrenhal.

And a letter would be pretty much the cheapest plot device ever. What reason could Lyanna Stark possibly have to write such a letter? When she was dying she didn't yet know that her son would live - or be raised as Eddard's son. Why on earth would she write a letter to her son as her brother's bastard? Once Ned made his promise Lyanna apparently died. She wasn't exactly in a condition that would it likely for her to write while she was begging Ned to do what he eventually agreed to do.

Agreed. On all points. If Rhaegar and Lyanna is actually where the story is leading. This is not a plot device to reveal his true identity. I agree that should any such thing happen, Bran, BR, and Howland are more than sufficient to relay this fact.

Though i still wouldnt see why Jon needs to know or that it will change anything in the story. Jon is already where he needs to be fighting the fight he is supposedly destined for. Any parent reveal is pointless and doesn't further his journey other than his own self discovery which should conflict with his being brought up a Northerner and a Stark. I just dont see this as a secret that furthers his over all plot. 

What ever is down in those crypts and revealed to him should actually be tied into bringing down the Others or Night's king if there is one. Something about him dying and being brought back should have some bearing on this imo more so than any parent reveal. He could never know who his parents were and simply find out what it takes to destroy the others and do it, and Rhaegar would have no greater bearing to his story. Which is centered at the Wall and Beyond. Like some one else important that actually exist in Jon's chapters as a part of his arch and character development, Mance. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Of course I named none of those people as being responsible for Jon's dreams. The old nameless gods of the forest are more likely candidates for outside forces who would intrude into Jon's dreams. Could it be an old greenseer residing in the weirwood network? Who knows? All we know is that Jon has the dreams and Ned didn't plan for him to have to open Lyanna's tomb to see whatever, if anything, is there. We know in his dreams he is being driven to go into the crypts. We interpret this to be a clue there is something there of importance. It's a likely interpretation, but we will see.

Except the books have already given us in world characters such as i name that can enter peoples dreams, so no reason to assume the gods are doing it when you have Glass Candles and such. 

2 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Nonsense. You presume Ned can assume Jon's safety if he tells Catelyn, but he tells us specifically that there are secrets that must not be shared even with those you love. He tells us of his worries if Catelyn would be force to choose between her own children and Jon. Ned's reasons for not telling Cat are spelled out. You just think your reasoning for why he should confide in Cat is better than the character. My response is that if he was willing to risk Jon's life by telling others his story then we would be dealing with a very different Ned and a very different backstory.

You can keep bringing that up all you want but you keep bringing it up out of context and trying to force it to apply to what you want. So it's not really relevant. Specially as your theory is that he is the child of Rhaegar and thus not a threat to Robbs inheritance. So keeping it from her is pointless. No matter how you wanna paint Ned's character. Ned loved Cat and trusted her. That is very apparent by the text. Just because you dont think Cat is a good or trust worthy person doesn't mean Eddard thought the same. Sorry. 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

It struck him suddenly that he might return to Winterfell by sea. Ned was no sailor, and ordinarily would have preferred the kingsroad, but if he took ship he could stop at Dragonstone and speak with Stannis Baratheon. Pycelle had sent a raven off across the water, with a polite letter from Ned requesting Lord Stannis to return to his seat on the small council. As yet, there had been no reply, but the silence only deepened his suspicions. Lord Stannis shared the secret Jon Arryn had died for, he was certain of it. The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt. The Imp's knife. Why would the dwarf want Bran dead? To silence him, surely. Another secret, or only a different strand of the same web?

Could Robert be part of it? He would not have thought so, but once he would not have thought Robert could command the murder of women and children either. Catelyn had tried to warn him. You knew the man, she had said. The king is a stranger to you. The sooner he was quit of King's Landing, the better. If there was a ship sailing north on the morrow, it would be well to be on it.

 

 

 

Context instead of cherry picking.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host, "Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects."

Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years. 

 

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

"He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can't you see the danger that would put us in?"

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

 

Even those you love and trust?

Hmmmm Can't tell the person you love and trust cause Jon's life will be in danger......

 

And you conclude Cat. Ok.
Even though we believe Eddard is hiding Jon from Robert, the person who would kill him if he knew the truth that Jon is supposedly the child of Rhaegar?

 

Again, no reason to not tell Cat. Just Robert. Cat doesn't even talk to Robert or any one else in the south, hasn't even talked to her sister in years. 

 

 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

33 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

No, Ned recalls the promises he made to Lyanna and the price he paid to keep them. Look it up. It's here:

Really? Ok, and that passage proves what about broken promises? Other than yes he made promises to Lyanna supposedly. Supposedly.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

So what part is he not remembering? Or misremembering? Cause we know per GRRM Martin that Ned's fever dream recollections of the Tower of Joy are not accurate or to be trusted. 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

Ned did not honor that with a reply. Nor did he offer his guest a seat, but Littlefinger took one anyway. "After you stormed out, it was left to me to convince them not to hire the Faceless Men," he continued blithely. "Instead Varys will quietly let it be known that we'll make a lord of whoever does in the Targaryen girl."

Ned was disgusted. "So now we grant titles to assassins."

Littlefinger shrugged. "Titles are cheap. The Faceless Men are expensive. If truth be told, I did the Targaryen girl more good than you with all your talk of honor. Let some sellsword drunk on visions of lordship try to kill her. Likely he'll make a botch of it, and afterward the Dothraki will be on their guard. If we'd sent a Faceless Man after her, she'd be as good as buried."

 

 

So here we see assassination attempt began.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

The servants rushed back in and hurried to feed the fires. The queen had gone; that was some small relief, at least. If she had any sense, Cersei would take her children and fly before the break of day, Ned thought. She had lingered too long already.

King Robert did not seem to miss her. He bid his brother Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle to stand in witness as he pressed his seal into the hot yellow wax that Ned had dripped upon his letter. "Now give me something for the pain and let me die."

 

 

Robert is dying with nary a mention of stopping the assassination of Dany.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Certainly Varys had once been young. Ned doubted that he had ever been innocent. "You mention children. Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once."

"Alas," said Varys. "At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown. But I shall do what I can, my lord. With your leave." He bowed and vanished down the steps, his soft-soled slippers whispering against the stone as he made his descent.

 

 

So not only did Robert and Ned not have this conversation, but it's Eddard trying to stop Dany from being killed. To which he fails. And thinks of

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

 

 

Broken promises has nothing to do with Jon and everything to do with Daenerys. So you can dance around it and pretend all day, but those promises weren't about Jon being kept safe and that's why they're broken. As Jon is safe and sound at the Wall secret identity intact. 

 

Im sorry if i seem short or impatient, it just feels like every one has R+L blinders on and that that theory some how magically explains all the mysteries cause it's dead right and all others are stupid for just not seeing the obvious. Snore.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On the other hand,

Our author has gone out of his way to tell us about Bael the Bard plucking a Stark Maid and leaving a rose. Then having a son with her that he faces 30 years and is killed by for refusing to face.

Then given us Mance who goes by Abel=Bael. Who serves in the watch at the time of Harrenhal and there is a black brother at Harrenhal. The Knight of the Laughing tree repeatedly called a male by Meera telling the story (So not Lyanna, nice try). Where a Stark maid is plucked and blue roses given. 

To which Mance faces Jon at the Wall as King beyond the Wall 15 years later. With Jon killing Mance (Skinchanged Rattle shirt) at the wall for refusing to send his full force at Jon. To which he says is because of Blood, while giving the impression that he means lives of Wildlings lost, but could be implying Jon is his blood and it's a sin. 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon X

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

"Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

"Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough."

 

 

 

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

As the last strains of "The Dornishman's Wife" faded, the bald earless man glanced up from his map and scowled ferociously at Rattleshirt and Ygritte, with Jon between them. "What's this?" he said. "A crow?"

"The black bastard what gutted Orell," said Rattleshirt, "and a bloody warg as well."

 

 

The singer rose to his feet. "I'm Mance Rayder," he said as he put aside the lute. "And you are Ned Stark's bastard, the Snow of Winterfell."

Stunned, Jon stood speechless for a moment, before he recovered enough to say, "How . . . how could you know . . ."

"That's a tale for later," said Mance Rayder. "How did you like the song, lad?"

"Well enough. I'd heard it before."

"But what does it matter, for all men must die," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, "and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife. Tell me, does my Lord of Bones speak truly? Did you slay my old friend the Halfhand?"

"I did." Though it was his doing more than mine.

 

 

 

And upon Jon first meeting Mance, Mance is singing about the Dornishman's wife. Then ask Jon how he likes it, then after Jon says he's heard it before. Mance repeats the part about tasting the Dornishman's wife. 

 

And who was the Dornishman and his bride to be?

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dornish_Marches

The Dornish Marches is an area of southern Westeros in the border region between the stormlands, the Reach, and Dorne. The marches are predominantly in the southwestern stormlands and extend east to the Sea of Dorne.

Marcher lords

Marcher lords is the name given to the lords of the stormlands and the Reach within the Dornish Marches. 

 

Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. Mance tasted the Dornishman's wife. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

You see, if Jon is the child of Mance and Lyanna. Jon's life is still under threat. 

His life isn't under threat because he is a possible Targaryen. 

It's under threat because SOME ONE slept with Roberts fiance. Robert just happens to believe its Rhaegar. To which Eddard is shocked at how much he still hates Rhaegar over it. 

So if Robert found out that it was actually Mance Rayder, once Black Brother and now King Beyond the Wall, Robert would lose his shit and invade the North and destroy the watch probably just to get at Mance. Not to mention still murdering Jon. 

So which father makes more sense to me given the clues martin has set up in the books? Im sticking with Mance.

[AlaskanSandman]

Evidence for R+L=J?

 

Rhaegar gave a rose? So what. So did Loras and he was gay. Sansa made the mistake of assumption too.

Lyanna cried because he played a sad song? So do lots of other characters in the books when they hear a sad song. Are they all in love now because of that? Rhaegar probably didn't even notice her.

Rhaegar kidnapped her? Say's Robert and the singers and historians he commissioned. 

She was at the Tower of Joy? Grrm says the dream is not to be trusted. Some one was at the Tower of Joy. That's all we know.

Something is buried with Lyanna to reveal Rhaegar as Jon's daddy. Not likely and morbid and unneeded. 

She clutched the roses given. Blue roses that fit Bael and Mance-Abel who tasted the dornishman's wife better? 

It would make Jon the magical PTWP or Azor Ahai (is there a difference? ) that would wake dragons from stone? Well that didn't happen at all. Even metaphorically. 

What other stuff does this really hinge on? Did i miss something? Cause it seems pretty flimsy once i actually start comparing. 

 

Where as the child born in the Tower of Joy better fits Daenerys to Ashara Dayne. As per the hidden gem of Queen Alysanne and her 13th child Gael the Winter Child likely born at Queen's Crown Tower to a Northerner. 

Thus Dany mirroring Alysanne's story, and Jon mirroring Baels. With all the ground work laid through out the books. 

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

George told us Dawn is at Starfall.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193

Thank you. But I know about that post in SSM.

Though read carefully what is actually written there, this:

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What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

The question is wrong The right question should be - Where is now the Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?

When you're asking wrong questions, you're getting wrong answers.

Even if the Dawn now is at Winterfell, GRRM didn't lied, when he said that it's at Starfall. Because if those events would have happened in a way, according to the official version of how they happened, then now the Dawn would have been at Starfall. If after Arthur's death, Ned went to Starfall, and gave the Dawn to Ashara, then now it would have still been at Starfall. In a world of ASOIAF the official version, about which all characters know, is that Ned brought the Dawn to Starfall. But also according to that version, Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, and she didn't gave birth to any children, and thus Ned took his bastard son Jon, somewhere on his way back from Starfall to Winterfell. But we know that this part of "official" story is a lie. So it's possible that the other part - about Ashara and the sword, is also a lie. Not a lie by GRRM, but a lie of Eddard Stark.

Now imagine that the Dawn is in crypts under Winterfell, and that Ned didn't brought it to Starfall, because Ashara was there with him in the Tower of Joy. And before Lyanna died, she gave birth to her and Rhaegar's son. Thus Ned didn't had to go to Starfall to bring the sword to Arthur's sister. She was already there with him. No need to go anywhere. But even if Ashara wasn't there, then there's another problem - Ned has a newborn baby on his hands, and the way to Starfall lies across mountains and desert. Which is more important - to bring the baby-King to safety of Winterfell, or to bring a sword of a dead man, that isn't going anywhere, to his sister, that won't ever need it anyway (because what for? she's a woman, and she is not a warrior. So the sword can wait, while the baby can't). And one more thing - name of Howland Reed's wife is Jyana <- doesn't ring a bell? -> Lyanna - Jyana. And Jyana's family name is unknown. Why is that? And why current Lord of Starfall and the head of Daynes House is called Edric Ned Dayne? Why would they give to the boy, name of a guy that killed Arthur? That's because the boy's father is Howland Reed, best friend of Ned Stark. 

So official ASOIAF version of those events, is just a cover up story, crafter by Eddard Stark, Howland Reed and his wife Jyana/Ashara Dayne.

Thus if readers are asking questions, based on information from official version, then instead of facts, they get answers, also based on information from that cover up story.

So back to the question, and the answer. The reader asked what happened with the sword, after Ned brought it back to Ashara. The reader believes into a cover up story. GRRM intentionally made Ned to create that cover up story, to hide from readers Jon's real parentage, and what actually happened with Lyanna. Thus GRRM needs that story to keep going as official version of those events. So there's no reason for him to correct the reader with - "That's incorrect, Ned didn't brought the sword back to Ashara." Because if he will correct the reader, instead of giving him an official ASOIAF-version (cover up story), then the reader will say - "But in the books it was said by characters, that the sword was brought back to Ashara to Starfall. Thus if that is not what actually happened, then what exactly did happened?"

And why would GRRM reveal all the secrets now (or rather then - in 2002, when that question was asked)? There's still two more books left. So the revelations will happen there, and not in some off books interviews.

This my theory is actully supported by everything GRRM has said, or didn't said since then, about Ashara.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1286

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(6) SOHP QUESTION: will we learn more about the Sword of Morning? And, can you tell me anything of Ashara Dayne to sock it to the R&L group?
ANSWER: Yes (regarding Sword of Morning); no comment about Ashara;

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116

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We were repeatedly told that Ashara Dayne threw herself into the sea. I wonder how this is known for sure. Was her body ever found?

No.

See? He didn't even confirmed whether she's dead.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

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As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own).

~

The rest I will save for the books.

So that GRRM's answer about Dawn's whereabouts means nothing. It wasn't a lie. What was asked, was answered. Which doesn't mean, that if someone will go to Starfall to look for the Dawn sword, it will actually be there.

[SFDanny]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except the books have already given us in world characters such as i name that can enter peoples dreams, so no reason to assume the gods are doing it when you have Glass Candles and such.

You can, of course, put forward your theories that any of these three could have intruded into Jon's dreams and are responsible for this feeling by Jon that he has to go down into the crypts. My point was something different. My point is that Ned is not responsible for this dream. Ned is alive when we first learn of Jon's dreams. Nothing we know of Ned shows that the living Ned had such power. He had no access to a glass candle, and they were not working before the birth of Dany's dragons and the reawakening of so much magic in the world. So, while Ned would likely be the person responsible for any objects left in Lyanna's tomb, he didn't do so as part of a plot to get Jon to find them and reveal any secret. If Ned hid anything in Lyanna's tomb, it was done so in order to hide the object or to honor his sister. The dreams are from another source than Ned.

To your speculation that it could be any of the three characters you name, I think we can rule out Marwyn and Quaithe. Again both of these characters abilities to intrude into dreams seem to come after the birth of dragons. Nor do we have any evidence they even know who Jon Snow is. Bloodraven is different. His magic is tied to the Weirwood trees and the Old Gods. He also has a history of speaking in dreams to Bran, Jon's half-brother, and this might be his work. What makes me doubt it is that the Three-eyed Crow first appears to Bran after his fall and near death. We don't know when Jon's dreams start, we only know that they predate Jon's meeting with Sam. It seems likely to me there are different sources for Bran's and Jon's dreams.

Jon's dream need not be something that is initiated from an outside force. The dream, as we read it, is a story of Jon's struggle against his isolation and his bastard identity. He cries out in his dream that he isn't a Stark and this means he shouldn't be forced to go into the crypt. Yet, this is not a one off dream. It is recurring as we can tell by the start of his telling of it to Sam. "Sometimes I dream about it" says Jon, and so we know by the "sometimes" that it has happened more than once. Is this then Jon's struggle for his identity or is it Jon's magical connection to some one, something, or some secret in the crypts.

You are more than welcome to put out your ideas here, but, again, I think we can rule out Ned as a source for Jon's dreams.

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You can keep bringing that up all you want but you keep bringing it up out of context and trying to force it to apply to what you want. So it's not really relevant. Specially as your theory is that he is the child of Rhaegar and thus not a threat to Robbs inheritance. So keeping it from her is pointless. No matter how you wanna paint Ned's character. Ned loved Cat and trusted her. That is very apparent by the text. Just because you dont think Cat is a good or trust worthy person doesn't mean Eddard thought the same. Sorry. 

I brought the quote up to prove that Ned's promises to the dying Lyanna were plural in nature, not singular as you kept putting forth. The quote proves it. And, no, this is not part of Ned's fevered dream. It is his thoughts as he rides from Chataya's brothel while he is wide awake and uninjured. You are simply wrong on the point.

As to the rest of your assumptions, I think Catelyn is indeed a good and trustworthy person. I don't think that it is even a question that Ned trusts, and, yes, loves her. That, again, is not the question. The question is why does Ned refuse to speak of Jon's mother. Why does he keep this secret from even those he loves and trust. There is no question he hides this secret from everyone, with the possible exception of Robert. Why? The answer is given to attentive readers. Ned says some secrets are too dangerous to share even with those he loves and trusts. This then is one of those too dangerous secrets.

How so? You are right that Robb's right to Winterfell isn't threatened by a claim by Jon if Jon is Rhaegar's child. The danger comes from Robert and all those who would use that secret and how Ned had kept it from the king all the long years of his life. If Ned lies to Robert about Rhaegar being Jon's father, then he has committed treason by hiding that fact. All of House Stark's loyalty to Robert is cast into question. The lives of all of Ned and Catelyn's children would be in danger if they too were part of the conspiracy to hide Jon's identity. So, when Ned thinks upon what Catelyn would do in just such a case we have our answer.

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Ned thought. If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. (AGoT 512)

As has long been noted here, Ned names all of his children but Jon in this list. He then places the choice in a question of what would Catelyn do if Jon's life were threaten and her children were thereby threatened as well. This then is the too dangerous choice with which he cannot entrust the wife he loves and trusts. Whether you think Ned should have told Catelyn Jon's secret or not is really immaterial because the story tells us Ned keeps this secret from her, and he also spells out why. It is a secret too dangerous to give to her because he doesn't know what Cat would do if she has to choose between the life of Jon and the lives of her own children. The why of that secret being too dangerous is the only real question. I'd submit that Rhaegar being Jon's father is by far and away the most likely answer to this puzzle. It almost certainly isn't because Wylla is Jon's real mother.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thank you. But I know about that post in SSM.

Though read carefully what is actually written there, this:

The question is wrong The right question should be - Where is now the Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?

When you're asking wrong questions, you're getting wrong answers.

Even if the Dawn now is at Winterfell, GRRM didn't lied, when he said that it's at Starfall. Because if those events would have happened in a way, according to the official version of how they happened, then now the Dawn would have been at Starfall. If after Arthur's death, Ned went to Starfall, and gave the Dawn to Ashara, then now it would have still been at Starfall. In a world of ASOIAF the official version, about which all characters know, is that Ned brought the Dawn to Starfall. But also according to that version, Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, and she didn't gave birth to any children, and thus Ned took his bastard son Jon, somewhere on his way back from Starfall to Winterfell. But we know that this part of "official" story is a lie. So it's possible that the other part - about Ashara and the sword, is also a lie. Not a lie by GRRM, but a lie of Eddard Stark.

Now imagine that the Dawn is in crypts under Winterfell, and that Ned didn't brought it to Starfall, because Ashara was there with him in the Tower of Joy. And before Lyanna died, she gave birth to her and Rhaegar's son. Thus Ned didn't had to go to Starfall to bring the sword to Arthur's sister. She was already there with him. No need to go anywhere. But even if Ashara wasn't there, then there's another problem - Ned has a newborn baby on his hands, and the way to Starfall lies across mountains and desert. Which is more important - to bring the baby-King to safety of Winterfell, or to bring a sword of a dead man, that isn't going anywhere, to his sister, that won't ever need it anyway (because what for? she's a woman, and she is not a warrior. So the sword can wait, while the baby can't). And one more thing - name of Howland Reed's wife is Jyana <- doesn't ring a bell? -> Lyanna - Jyana. And Jyana's family name is unknown. Why is that? And why current Lord of Starfall and the head of Daynes House is called Edric Ned Dayne? Why would they give to the boy, name of a guy that killed Arthur? That's because the boy's father is Howland Reed, best friend of Ned Stark. 

So official ASOIAF version of those events, is just a cover up story, crafter by Eddard Stark, Howland Reed and his wife Jyana/Ashara Dayne.

Thus if readers are asking questions, based on information from official version, then instead of facts, they get answers, also based on information from that cover up story.

So back to the question, and the answer. The reader asked what happened with the sword, after Ned brought it back to Ashara. The reader believes into a cover up story. GRRM intentionally made Ned to create that cover up story, to hide from readers Jon's real parentage, and what actually happened with Lyanna. Thus GRRM needs that story to keep going as official version of those events. So there's no reason for him to correct the reader with - "That's incorrect, Ned didn't brought the sword back to Ashara." Because if he will correct the reader, instead of giving him an official ASOIAF-version (cover up story), then the reader will say - "But in the books it was said by characters, that the sword was brought back to Ashara to Starfall. Thus if that is not what actually happened, then what exactly did happened?"

And why would GRRM reveal all the secrets now (or rather then - in 2002, when that question was asked)? There's still two more books left. So the revelations will happen there, and not in some off books interviews.

This my theory is actully supported by everything GRRM has said, or didn't said since then, about Ashara.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1286

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116

See? He didn't even confirmed whether she's dead.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

So that GRRM's answer about Dawn's whereabouts means nothing. It wasn't a lie. What was asked, was answered. Which doesn't mean, that if someone will go to Starfall to look for the Dawn sword, it will actually be there.

George says "remains". Remains means to stay in the same place. I think Dawn remains at Starfall. 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Ned thought. If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. (AGoT 512)

This though is also only because he has led her to believe that Jon is his. If Jon is not Eddards then him allowing this tension is dumb. She wouldn't feel threatened then and wouldn't wan't to kill Jon. See my point? If Jon is not Eddard's then this is his own manufactured problems. 

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This though is also only because he has led her to believe that Jon is his. If Jon is not Eddards then him allowing this tension is dumb. She wouldn't feel threatened then and wouldn't wan't to kill Jon. See my point? If Jon is not Eddard's then this is his own manufactured problems. 

You're missing the point of the quote. Ned is praying that he never has to find out what Catelyn would do if she is confronted with a choice between "Jon's life, against the the children of her body." This is not just some random hypothetical he is pondering because he got bored one day. He is praying such a choice never takes place because he knows it could happen and he doesn't know what Catelyn would do. This is not a manufactured possibility Ned brings upon himself.

So, no, no, a thousand times no. You are asking the wrong questions. You should be asking who would want to kill Jon and why? Who has the power to order Jon's death? And why would Catelyn be forced to make such a choice between her children and Jon? The answers to those questions take us pretty quickly to King Robert Baratheon, his mania towards all things Targaryen, and the secret of Jon's parentage.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

You're missing the point of the quote. Ned is praying that he never has to find out what Catelyn would do if she is confronted with a choice between "Jon's life, against the the children of her body." This is not just some random hypothetical he is pondering because he got bored one day. He is praying such a choice never takes place because he knows it could happen and he doesn't know what Catelyn would do. This is not a manufactured possibility Ned brings upon himself.

So, no, no, a thousand times no. You are asking the wrong questions. You should be asking who would want to kill Jon and why? Who has the power to order Jon's death? And why would Catelyn be forced to make such a choice between her children and Jon? The answers to those questions take us pretty quickly to King Robert Baratheon, his mania towards all things Targaryen, and the secret of Jon's parentage.

Again, your missing the point that this is only because she believes Jon is his. So the rest just falls flat.

Since Jon is not Eddard's child, this is a mute point.

[Ygrain]

30 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

You are asking the wrong questions.

Indeed. But that is quite common when one is actually not interested in the answer.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Where is now the Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?

Im not sure that's even a proper sentence in English and would venture that it's not your native language?

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Even if the Dawn now is at Winterfell, GRRM didn't lied, when he said that it's at Starfall.

These strike me as indicators as in English we wouldn't announce "the" sword with "the" as in Spanish or French. Its just Dawn. Not the Dawn. The Dawn would imply the sun rising in a literal sense. 

Even if Dawn is now at Winterfell, GRRM didn't lie when he said that it's at Starfall.- Would be proper. 

I only bring this up as ive always wondered about adaptations and how any different impressions would be given based on the Language the book was translated to. And this may be a case of what's happening here  

[Geddus]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, your missing the point that this is only because she believes Jon is his. So the rest just falls flat.

Since Jon is not Eddard's child, this is a mute point.

Catelyn is worried because Jon, being Ned's son, could be a threat to her children's inheritance rights.

If Jon was Rhaegar's instead his mere existence would be a threat to said children's lives. I don't think Catelyn would have liked that very much.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, your missing the point that this is only because she believes Jon is his. So the rest just falls flat.

Since Jon is not Eddard's child, this is a mute point.

The test is not your faith that upon knowing the truth about Jon's parents that you think Catelyn would therefore protect Jon. The test is in what Ned tells us straight up what he thinks she would do, knowing the truth, if forced to choose between Jon's life and the lives of her children. Ned tells us that he prays to never find out what Catelyn would do in such a choice. He tells us that to allow Catelyn to make that choice is too dangerous. Dangerous in that she could perhaps make a choice to save her children by allowing Jon to die. Does that mean he doesn't trust Cat in all other things? No, it means this is secret that is too dangerous to tell her, and therefore he must continue the lie between them that Jon is his son. Ned tells us why he doesn't tell Catelyn the truth, and you ignore his reasons and call it mute. That doesn't make it so.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Indeed. But that is quite common when one is actually not interested in the answer.

I'm afraid that is precisely the case here.

15 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Catelyn is worried because Jon, being Ned's son, could be a threat to her children's inheritance rights.

If Jon was Rhaegar's instead his mere existence would be a threat to said children's lives. I don't think Catelyn would have liked that very much.

An excellent, concise post. I hope it makes more of an impact than mine.

[Ygrain]

35 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I hope it makes more of an impact than mine.

Oh, my sweet summer child...

Unless the third time does the charm.

 

On a side note: we never hear what version of events Cat knew as she never elaborates on what it was that Brandon "heard about Lyanna". IMHO, her own assessment of Brandon's decision to go to KL as "rash"  as well as the memory of her father going ballistic and calling  Brandon "gallant fool" do not support the rape version. It doesn't necessarily mean that they thought Lyanna went willingly but they definitely do not give Brandon the excuse of being legitimately worried about Lyanna.

Last time this discussion was brought up - ages ago - there was a dispute over what exactly Hoster meant by "gallant": did he give Brandon credit for being foolish but brave, or did he condemn him for being (excessively) chivalrous? The former doesn't seem to reveal anything, the latter would support that Brandon went to duel Rhaegar to avenge Lyanna's honour, which would be consistent with Brandon's reaction at the HH crowning as a "dishonor" to Lyanna.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

If Jon was Rhaegar's instead his mere existence would be a threat to said children's lives. I don't think Catelyn would have liked that very much.

That at least is more logical and not as grasping as the other crap put forth. I can believe that more 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Indeed. But that is quite common when one is actually not interested in the answer.

I'm afraid that is precisely the case here.

No, your just pompous and your argument is still bad. Cause apparently your answer is more right than others. Yea. What he said was different so dont buddy up on it like it was yours. 

And its debate-able if Cat would see Jons presence as a threat knowing that he wasn't Eddards. As no body else even knows who he is, there is zero chance of Jon being found out, as what happened. 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

 

The actual conversation your quoting is part of Eddard confronting Cersei over Jamie pushing Bran out the window to protect their children. 

Then Eddard thinks to him self what Cat would do if she were protecting her kids. Would she kill a kid she didn't know. 

Then he wonders what she would do if it were Jon, a child NOT of her body. Though still believed by her to be Eddards. 

So you keep using it out of context to suit your argument when really it doesn't. This has nothing to do with her actually knowing Jon is NOT Eddards, which would greatly change this question he has. He knows she thinks Jon is his, so this is how he is forming the question.

Nice try.