R+L=J v.165

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:23 PM, -Shaggydog- said:

Hi, I don't know if that was discussed here before:

ADWD Jon:

Assuming the raven is skinchanged by Bran (which is pointed out by the unsual vocabulary and Jon being curious about that, too). Can it be that Bran already knows about Jon's parentage and is just revealing it to Jon by calling him "King"?

Keeping in mind that Rhegar's son should have the bigger claim to the IT, the equation R+L=J can be rewritten as R+L="King".

Why else would Mormont's raven (Bran) call him "King"?

King in the North and of Winter .

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:55 AM, Ygrain said:

They may also have been gifted by Rhaegar, as a remembrance fo the crown. - Which, by the way, would have been kept as a whole, so there's really no way Lyanna could have put it in a book. Air-drying it would work just fine because we're not in tropical climate where things rot sort of by themselves (not to mention that winter hits back quite soon).

Also, Lord Varys apparently never heard about things like waxed travel bags and small chests which can be fit in for travelling on horse back. Not to mention all those dry old plants in my garden which I regularly fail to cut in the autumn but come spring, they are still not a rotten mess. Dried vegetation is actually pretty resistant.

 

I CHOSE YOU

I don't know , but I guess it is just me but I like to think that it was her wedding bouquet .

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I don't know , but I guess it is just me but I like to think that it was her wedding bouquet .

Yeah, why not? Any roses that held special sigificance for her would do. It's only that the crown as a rose object of special significance is already established in the story, so I thought there might be a connection.

[Alia of the knife]

On 4/6/2018 at 2:26 AM, SirArthur said:

Maybe you do, I don't. In my book there are at least 4 contenders, our womanizer Rhaegar can be linked to: Elia, Lyanna, Cersei, Ashara. And the only thing that places Lyanna over Cersei or Ashara is a single action during a tourney.

With all due respect, the text is pretty clear on Rhaegar's overall character.

While I agree that GRRM is in process of deconstructing the myth that is Rhaegar, (i.e., more specifically Cersei and Dany POV), and we are being presented with more of a flawed man, a man whose sense of honor became at cross purposes with his heart when it came to love and Lyanna.

Elia: He never would have left Elia for a mistress, but he might for love.Had things been normal, he would have more than made good provision for her, and his children with her would be first in succession. I suspect the birth of Jon would have been meant for Aegon to have an ally, not an enemy.

There is also the issue of the "spare to the heir," especially given that Elia "would bare no more children."

Cersei: There is no textual indication that Rhaegar wanted Cersei, in fact, the line where it states that "he looked into her eyes," (paraphrasing as it's been awhile since I read the books), I think is a lead-up to the fact he saw her true nature, and my own speculation is, just like it ended up being Olenna who was turned down by that Targaryen Prince, hence her lifelong goal for her family to get the throne, I think Cersei was turned down by Rhaegar.

While it's true, Aerys has the last word on alliances, it still would be better if he and Rhaegar were of like minds on his bride, so I speculate Rhaegar put the nail in the coffin on a Lannister alliance.

Ashara: There is no textual evidence of any relationship between them other than being his best friends little sister. If you want to look to love and the father of Ahsarsa's child, look to the wild wolf, Brandon Stark.

Had Brandon not died, Ashara would likely have been quietly married off to Ned, and the family given lands on par with Winterfell. It would appease both the Tully's and the Daynes.

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 0:13 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

King in the North and of Winter .

and/or the Corn King.

[Julia H.]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

and/or the Corn King.

I was just going to say this as I was reading through the posts. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 minutes ago, Alia of the knife said:

Cersei: There is no textual indication that Rhaegar wanted Cersei, in fact, the line where it states that "he looked into her eyes," (paraphrasing as it's been awhile since I read the books), I think is a lead-up to the fact he saw her true nature, and my own speculation is, just like it ended up being Olenna who was turned down by that Targaryen Prince, hence her lifelong goal for her family to get the throne, I think Cersei was turned down by Rhaegar.

While it's true, Aerys has the last word on alliances, it still would be better if he and Rhaegar were of like minds on his bride, so I speculate Rhaegar put the nail in the coffin on a Lannister alliance.

I am of the same opinion that Rhaegar put the kybosh on the idea of marriage to Cersei as much as Aerys did and for the reasons you mention.

I do tend to go further on this, however. Cersei's chapter seems to provide a timeline of sorts. Cersei places Rhaegar at Lannisport at the tourney at the same time she goes to get her fortune told by Maggy the Frog. She has her fortune told after she finds out that her father intends to marry her off to Rhaegar and before she finds out that Aerys has rejected the offer.

I think Rhaegar paid the woman a visit too. Him becoming convinced that Aegon was the PtwP raises all kinds of red flags for me, personally. And when we look at Cersei's fortune, she asks her questions, but Maggy the Frog goes even further in her prophecy, with the final parts being about the golden shrouds and the valonqar. So I really have to wonder if there wasn't a greater purpose in that chapter. Cersei certainly mentions that Rhaegar's sad eyes and that she thought he had been wounded, and it may not be a whole lot, because we are told that Rhaegar was a melancholy guy. But maybe he found out that it's his son instead who will have this monumental task of saving the world on his shoulders.

[Ygrain]

59 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Rhaegar paid the woman a visit too. Him becoming convinced that Aegon was the PtwP raises all kinds of red flags for me, personally. And when we look at Cersei's fortune, she asks her questions, but Maggy the Frog goes even further in her prophecy, with the final parts being about the golden shrouds and the valonqar. So I really have to wonder if there wasn't a greater purpose in that chapter. Cersei certainly mentions that Rhaegar's sad eyes and that she thought he had been wounded, and it may not be a whole lot, because we are told that Rhaegar was a melancholy guy. But maybe he found out that it's his son instead who will have this monumental task of saving the world on his shoulders.

Now that's an interesting thought! I don't recall anyone mentioning Maggy the Frog in connection to Rhaegar, even though it has been speculated that his songs about the deaths of kings inspired by his visits to Summerhall were, in fact, inspired by the visions of Ghost of the High Heart (whom he paid in songs). Consulting another "source" would make sense!

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Now that's an interesting thought! I don't recall anyone mentioning Maggy the Frog in connection to Rhaegar, even though it has been speculated that his songs about the deaths of kings inspired by his visits to Summerhall were, in fact, inspired by the visions of Ghost of the High Heart (whom he paid in songs). Consulting another "source" would make sense!

 

I mentioned it once in another thread but it got shut down very quickly because I had no evidence for it or something like that. I think Rhaegar being placed in Lannisport at the same time Cersei consulted Maggy the Frog is important. We are told that people in Lannisport used to go see her, so the odds that he heard of her are good, I think. 

In any case, while I agree that Rhaegar may have sought the GoHH, I have doubts that it was at Summerhall. But regardless of that, if he did see both, then the odds are good that he would have come away with the same kind of information but phrased differently. Both women are accurate in what they say. That may have been enough for him to believe that Aegon was the PtwP once he saw the comet. I think there's irony that he changed his life around to be fulfill what he thought was his prophecy, receive his knighthood only to be told that this wasn't about him after all.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I mentioned it once in another thread but it got shut down very quickly because I had no evidence for it or something like that. I think Rhaegar being placed in Lannisport at the same time Cersei consulted Maggy the Frog is important. We are told that people in Lannisport used to go see her, so the odds that he heard of her are good, I think. 

Pfft. We don't have any evidence for tons of stuff about Rhaegar, so I don't see how this speculation is any worse. Plus we do know that Rhaegar believed in prophecies, he had changed all his life for one, after all. So if he learned that there was a respected, or perhaps even reliable, seer available, I don't think it's a stretch at all to consider that Rhaegar might have wanted to mine for extra information. It has been speculated that the whole "dragon has three heads" is somehow important, and the lack of a third sibling may have troubled Rhaegar to the point of starting to question his own role in it all. Some have claimed that it was all hubris on Rhaegar's part, wanting to be the hero who saves the world, but I don't think this is the picture GRRM is painting, dutiful people don't tend to overestimate their own importance to boost their ego, and melancholy is definitely not an accompanying sign of hubris. I always interpreted Cersei's remark about the "hurt" she saw in Rhaegar's eyes as simply a part of his general melancholy but what you suggest is perfectly plausible.

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

In any case, while I agree that Rhaegar may have sought the GoHH, I have doubts that it was at Summerhall.

It may have been elsewhere, of course, but Summerhall is the only place we know where Rhaegar went completely alone. Not that people don't seek solitude when they want to compose something, but did he really have to travel all that way to get inspiration, to that one particular location? And those sad songs he brought back - singing about deaths of kings as if about his own and those he loved, sounds awfully much like visions of his future, and then there are only two options: either he was prophetic himself, or had a source. If he learned why his parents had to marry, and if it was known that "Jenny's woodswitch"  survived the inferno, wouldn't it be logical to go looking for her to ask for more information? And the other way round: might GoHH have seen that Rhaegar was looking for her, that they were to meet at Summerhall? IIRC, we don't know when she came to High Heart. She seems to dwell on the past quite a lot, so I don't think it is implausible that she might have wanted to stay in the vicinity of Summerhall and come visiting to remember Jenny.

 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Alia of the knife said:

Elia: He never would have left Elia for a mistress, but he might for love.Had things been normal, he would have more than made good provision for her, and his children with her would be first in succession. I suspect the birth of Jon would have been meant for Aegon to have an ally, not an enemy.

Just as Aegon the Elder was an ally for Rhaenyra? Or Daemon Blackfyre for Daeron II?

And why are dismissing a mistress here, as if one cannot love his mistress? Married men in the noble and royal classes are more likely to deeply love their mistresses than the women they are forced to marry.

Marriage doesn't mean love. Nor is it a sign of love in this world. And, in fact, in the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna we have no idea whether they married because of love or some other reasons - say, that Rhaegar didn't want to father an illegitimate 'head of the dragon'.

15 hours ago, Alia of the knife said:

There is also the issue of the "spare to the heir," especially given that Elia "would bare no more children."

There were more than enough heirs at this point. Rhaegar had two children, and Aerys II had another son in Viserys. The Targaryen succession was secure.

15 hours ago, Alia of the knife said:

Cersei: There is no textual indication that Rhaegar wanted Cersei, in fact, the line where it states that "he looked into her eyes," (paraphrasing as it's been awhile since I read the books), I think is a lead-up to the fact he saw her true nature, and my own speculation is, just like it ended up being Olenna who was turned down by that Targaryen Prince, hence her lifelong goal for her family to get the throne, I think Cersei was turned down by Rhaegar.

Guys, Cersei was ten years old at the tourney of Lannisport. Rhaegar was seeing a blond child with the body of a child. A child with a pretty face, perhaps, but not person he would have been attracted to.

He was seventeen at that time. The idea that the man felt anything for Cersei is to imagine him as a pedophile. Cersei wasn't Lyanna. A married adult lusting after 13-14-year-old Lyanna at Harrenhal is also somewhat strange, but the author can still use the excuse that Lyanna looked like a woman already, and also had a very 'interesting' and 'grown-up' personality. And, perhaps, nothing happened at Harrenhal besides them talking.

Tywin was always grasping at straws when he dreamed that his daughter could marry the Prince of Dragonstone. Even if Aerys II had been positively inclined, the age gap was very big and they would have to wait another 2-3 years for the wedding, and best another 4-5 years for the first child - and then there was always the heightened risk of killing mother and child both in an early pregnancy.

Aerys II may have waited as long as he did to choose a bride for Rhaegar because he hoped he and Rhaella would produce a sister for him to marry - and in that case they would have waited until she was old enough to keep the bloodlines pure, etc. - or that cousin Steffon would produce a cousin for Rhaegar to marry. That would have been the second best thing, one assumes.

15 hours ago, Alia of the knife said:

While it's true, Aerys has the last word on alliances, it still would be better if he and Rhaegar were of like minds on his bride, so I speculate Rhaegar put the nail in the coffin on a Lannister alliance.

At this point Aerys and Rhaegar seem to have been close enough for daddy to ask his son for his opinion. Could be that Rhaegar also made it clear he didn't want Cersei Lannister. But it would have been Aerys who decided to do it in the brusque manner he did.

The idea that Rhaegar somehow saw Cersei's character, etc. is still very far-fetched. Again, she was ten years old. And she and Rhaegar wouldn't have exchanged (m)any words. She didn't live at court, and Rhaegar wouldn't have spent hours with a little child, not during the tourney, nor during previous visits to Casterly Rock (or during Cersei's visits at court).

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It may have been elsewhere, of course, but Summerhall is the only place we know where Rhaegar went completely alone. Not that people don't seek solitude when they want to compose something, but did he really have to travel all that way to get inspiration, to that one particular location? And those sad songs he brought back - singing about deaths of kings as if about his own and those he loved, sounds awfully much like visions of his future, and then there are only two options: either he was prophetic himself, or had a source. If he learned why his parents had to marry, and if it was known that "Jenny's woodswitch"  survived the inferno, wouldn't it be logical to go looking for her to ask for more information? And the other way round: might GoHH have seen that Rhaegar was looking for her, that they were to meet at Summerhall? IIRC, we don't know when she came to High Heart. She seems to dwell on the past quite a lot, so I don't think it is implausible that she might have wanted to stay in the vicinity of Summerhall and come visiting to remember Jenny.

That is overly complicated scenario. There is no reason for us to assume Rhaegar felt the need to keep any conversation he may have had with the Ghost a secret. She once was a part of the royal court when Prince Duncan and Lady Jenny lived at King's Landing during the reign of Aegon V, and she greatly influenced the marriage policies of that era with the prophecy she made to Rhaegar's own grandfather, the future Jaehaerys II.

In fact, the Ghost may have continued to live at court until the early death of Jaehaerys II considering that the man apparently trusted the prophetic guidance of this woman. She may have removed herself from the Red Keep after Jaehaerys II's early death considering that neither King Aerys II nor Queen Rhaella are likely to have liked her all that much considering that she and her prophecy were the reasons they were stuck in a loveless, incestuous marriage.

But considering that this woman had once been a member of the royal court there is no reason to believe she could or did completely go off the radar. It may have always been known she went to the High Heart in the Riverlands. The dwarf-woman's own emotions make it very unlikely she ever returned to Summerhall. It is a place a of great grief for her. The song about Jenny and Duncan gives her back some of the joy of her past, but there would have nothing of that sort at the ruins of Summerhall. After all, the song is about Jenny and Duncan's love, not Summerhall.

One should also keep in mind that we don't know when or how Jenny of Oldstones died. This line of the song 'High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...' implies she may have survived Summerhall, being driven mad by the fact that her husband, her parents-in-law, her children (if she and Duncan had any), and people she knew were devoured by the flames. If that was the case then she and the dwarf-woman may have remained at Jaehaerys II's court for a while - or they may left for the Riverlands immediately, where Jenny eventually died, leaving the dwarf-woman to become the Ghost of High Heart.

Rhaegar's own connection is actually just the theoretical obsession of a man with morbid/melancholic tendencies. Rhaegar was born at Summerhall during the tragedy, but he doesn't remember it. He goes there because he is curious about this place of his birth, most likely because his parents and others who were there very seldom talked about the whole thing.

There is also no explanation for his own melancholy, making it not unlikely it was how 'Targaryen madness' expressed itself in him. Depression is an illness anyone can suffer from without any real trigger or cause (although it helps if you are under a lot of stress and suffer traumas, etc. - which Rhaegar never did), but the Targaryens have a long history of mental afflictions.

The idea that Rhaegar would ask the dwarf-woman to meet him at Summerhall of all places sounds like a rather tasteless suggestion to me. 'Let's go talk at the place where you lost a lot of people? Let's go talk at a place where you suffered a lot of grief?' Why would he do that?

Rhaegar's obsession seems to be a like personal thing. Him exploring his own birth amidst death. It is best to see this as a private matter, a character trait, not a plot device to hide another plot device.

If Rhaegar talked to the Ghost then the Riverlands are the best place - and it would then likely have been after the birth of Prince Aegon on Dragonstone.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Some have claimed that it was all hubris on Rhaegar's part, wanting to be the hero who saves the world, but I don't think this is the picture GRRM is painting, dutiful people don't tend to overestimate their own importance to boost their ego, and melancholy is definitely not an accompanying sign of hubris.

Rhaegar was forced to shoulder a lot of nonsensical 'prophetic responsibility' because his elders - his great-granduncle Aemon, his grandfather Jaehaerys II, and his parents - believed that he was the promised prince. There was a prophecy claiming that Aerys and Rhaella's line would produce that person, a prophecy Jaehaerys II believed in, causing him to marry his son to his daughter. And then the tragedy of Summerhall and the circumstances of Rhaegar's birth caused his family to interpret this as a fulfillment of the signs and portents the original prophecy about the promised prince mention.

Rhaegar is a child whose parents/family want him to be something he isn't or might not be. They throw the weight of the world on his shoulders at a very early age. There is no way the boy found this obscure prophecy about the promised prince all by himself, and it is utterly impossible that he would have concluded all by himself that he was the one the prophecy was talking about.

His mother or his father (or both) gave him that prophecy to read and told him that they believed he was the one it spoke about. And that's why he believed it for as long as he did. And Aemon would have told him the same, once he started exchanging letters with him.

What is clearly hubris is Rhaegar's own weird believe that his son Aegon is 'the promised prince' based on nothing but a comet seen in the night of Aegon's conception. There is nothing to justify this belief - in his own case he would have been mislead by his parents and information they gave him (children usually buy anything their elders tell them at an early age) - but there is no excuse for his Aegon fantasies. And even less so for his mad ideas that he had to bring forth three dragon heads.

While it wasn't even clear that Aegon was the promised prince it was madness to think it was his duty to make/force a prophecy to fulfill itself. If it was a genuine and correct prophecy it would fulfill itself anyway, no matter what Rhaegar Targaryen did or didn't do.

For all Rhaegar knew the promised prince could be Aegon's, or Rhaenys', or Viserys' great-great-grandchild. It is hubris to think prophecy needs your active participation. If the whole Lyanna thing was in part caused by Rhaegar believing he had to fulfill prophecy he is basically the same kind of nut case as Melisandre who also thinks she has to make/ensure a prophecy come(s) true. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Some have claimed that it was all hubris on Rhaegar's part, wanting to be the hero who saves the world, but I don't think this is the picture GRRM is painting, dutiful people don't tend to overestimate their own importance to boost their ego, and melancholy is definitely not an accompanying sign of hubris. I always interpreted Cersei's remark about the "hurt" she saw in Rhaegar's eyes as simply a part of his general melancholy but what you suggest is perfectly plausible.

I think it would have saddened him to see the weight of the world be transferred onto the shoulders of a child that had yet to be born. That's what his life was, he had already walked miles in those shoes.

I don't think he wanted to be the hero to save the world. Barristan put it best "It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him."

It was his duty and he was going to see it through. 

[Julia H.]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There were more than enough heirs at this point. Rhaegar had two children, and Aerys II had another son in Viserys. The Targaryen succession was secure.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that Viserys, while Targaryen, is not Rhaegar's child, and Rhaegar had only one son. If Aegon were to die young (Rhaegar may have thought), there could easily be a succession crisis between Rhaenys and Viserys  - Rhaenys could have a claim through proximity, Viserys through being a male. Viserys as the spare could be great for the Targaryen family as such, but not necessarily good enough for Rhaegar, who - like every lord who has fathered children - would want his own child to inherit after him. A second - legitimate - son of Rhaegar would be the ideal "spare" for Rhaegar, and this is what Elia couldn't give him. 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that Viserys, while Targaryen, is not Rhaegar's child, and Rhaegar had only one son. If Aegon were to die young (Rhaegar may have thought), there could easily be a succession crisis between Rhaenys and Viserys  - Rhaenys could have a claim through proximity, Viserys through being a male. Viserys as the spare could be great for the Targaryen family as such, but not necessarily good enough for Rhaegar, who - like every lord who has fathered children - would want his own child to inherit after him. A second - legitimate - son of Rhaegar would be the ideal "spare" for Rhaegar, and this is what Elia couldn't give him. 

That has Rhaegar to worry about things in the far future. Nothing indicates he did that - or any of the Targaryens (or members of other noble families) worried about what their children and grandchildren would do when they claimed power.

Rhaegar was just a prince, and his royal father might rule another 20-30 years. Rhaegar himself could predecease his old man, like Aemon and Baelon predeceased Jaehaerys I. Elia could always die due to her poor health, so there would no need to rush things, anyway, while Rhaenys and Aegon lived.

There would also be no succession crisis if a King Rhaegar happened to be without a male heir. He could name an heir - either Rhaenys or Viserys - or he could marry them to each other (which would be a likely scenario, anyway). Whether Rhaegar wanted a female on the throne we don't know - I honestly doubt that. Pretty much nobody wants a female monarch in Westeros. And there is no indication that Rhaegar doted on Rhaenys the way Viserys I doted on Rhaenyra. We do know, however, that Rhaegar wanted sons.

And even Viserys I favored his brother Daemon over his daughter Rhaenyra before the man made himself impossible with the 'an heir for day' remark. Prior to that Prince Daemon was Viserys I's heir presumptive and Rhaenyra just the king's daughter. We don't know how close Viserys and Rhaegar were but we have no reason to believe the man would have favored his daughter over his brother. And whether Rhaenys or Viserys would have 'saner' as adolescents or adults is completely unclear, either. As Targaryens they all faced the risk of growing eccentric.

Finally, if Rhaegar really thought so much in dynastic and bloodline terms as you imply here then the proper way to resolve all this would have been the get rid of his wife. It was Elia's duty to produce children for the royal dynasty, so he should have impregnated her a third time, allowed her to die in childbirth, so he could grieve, for a time, and then take himself a new, healthy, and properly fertile wife.

But then again - Rhaegar had two healthy children. A daughter and a son who could marry each other and continue the royal line. That was enough. Very few Targaryens had many children, and very few seem to have been obsessed with or concerned about producing ten or a dozen children to protect against high child mortality rates, etc.

And historically it is quite clear that things go to hell if you have children from two wives. That's what gave the Realm Maegor the Cruel and the Dance of the Dragons (and, in a sense, also the Blackfyre rebellions). Remarrying is only a good option if you actually don't have any heirs. If both Elia's children and an unknown number of Lyanna's children had lived there would have been another succession war. Either immediately after Rhaegar's death, or after the death of Rhaegar's successor. A King Aegon VI may have gotten along with his half-siblings, but their children may have had ambitions of their own. Just as Maegor got along with King Aenys and accepted him on the Iron Throne - but refused to bow to Aenys' sons.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

"It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him."

It was his duty and he was going to see it through. 

That's how I perceive Rhaegar, too. I just know that quite a few people paint him in a different light.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think it would have saddened him to see the weight of the world be transferred onto the shoulders of a child that had yet to be born. That's what his life was, he had already walked miles in those shoes.

He was the one who transferred that weight. It was Rhaegar who decided that his son was the promised prince, and no one else. He didn't have to believe that. A comet in the night of the boy's conception (assuming Rhaegar is correct that the boy was conceived in that night) doesn't mean he is the promised prince.

Children who are abused by their parents often repeat that behavior.

Jaehaerys II fed his children the idea they were 'special' and forced them to marry each other. Aerys II, Rhaella, Jaehaerys II, and Aemon concluded that Rhaegar was 'special' and helped the boy reach that conclusion, fueling the delusion he was the savior of mankind.

And Rhaegar was about to do the same thing to his own son, not to mention allowing himself to be influence 'prophetic delusions' and speculations very important political and private decisions.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think he wanted to be the hero to save the world. Barristan put it best "It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him."

It was his duty and he was going to see it through. 

Rhaegar's sense of duty can be a positive character trait, but trying to fulfill a delusional duty isn't a positive thing at all.

Rhaegar either acted out of passion - then he has the same kind of excuse Prince Duncan and his grandfather Jaehaerys II can give - and the whole Lyanna thing is (sort of) excusable (although it is still very bad form, both because the man was married, had children, and there was a considerable age gap between him and the child-woman he loved).

The other option is that he the interpretations and speculations about prophecy greatly influenced his actions - that's just madness. Well-intended madness, perhaps, but still madness. If there is no certainty that he is right about any of those 'speculations', and if you make an uninformed decision pretending you know what's right you are making an uninformed choice which we usually justify.

If any of us went around practicing polygamy, abducting people, and causing wars because we believe we have to produce legitimate children with the woman involved to save the world we have left the realm of sanity.

Nobody would listen to such people giving their 'reasons' for their actions.

Magic and prophecies are real in Martinworld - and informed people know that, especially in relation to the Targaryens - but the presumption that you do know exactly what a prophecy means and that you can help fulfill or make it true is presumption and hubris to the highest degree.

In fact, the entire series makes a point that people who believe they know the future or what a prophecy means are all morons.

But even if it turned out that Rhaegar's actions somehow influenced the birth of people who end up helping to save mankind then this still doesn't justify anything. Rhaegar had no means of knowing what would happen in the future. In fact, he doesn't even seem to have any inclination what the hell the promised prince was supposed to do, so he is no way justified in his actions.

We could only make a case that Rhaegar may be justified in his actions if he had known for a certainty what his children would do in the future and that only those children could do that. But I very much doubt that George will ever make the promised prince into some kind of superman who has (magical) qualities which no other human being could have. If the prophecy of the promised prince is true then this prince will show, no matter what people do. That's why people should stop worrying about prophecies and just live their lives. They are not guidelines to your actions. And they don't need you to make them true.

[Julia H.]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That has Rhaegar to worry about things in the far future. Nothing indicates he did that - or any of the Targaryens (or members of other noble families) worried about what their children and grandchildren would do when they claimed power.

It was his duty to produce heirs while he was able to do it - like all other noblemen. It doesn't mean an unusual amount of worry about the future, just what is normal in this society and culture.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaegar was just a prince, and his royal father might rule another 20-30 years. Rhaegar himself could predecease his old man, like Aemon and Baelon predeceased Jaehaerys I. Elia could always die due to her poor health, so there would no need to rush things, anyway, while Rhaenys and Aegon lived.

How long Aerys or Rhaegar himself would rule has nothing to do with Rhaegar having to secure succession.

As for Elia dying due to poor health... you know, I have always found it totally possible (not proven, mind you, just a possible scenario) that Elia's poor health could mean more than what the reader has been told so far - that she was perhaps not likely to live long and Rhaegar knew this. Of course, in this case, Rhaegar didn't have to rush things on account of Elia, but, if he wanted to marry Lyanna specifically, he had to prevent the planned marriage between Lyanna and Robert. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There would also be no succession crisis if a King Rhaegar happened to be without a male heir. He could name an heir - either Rhaenys or Viserys - or he could marry them to each other (which would be a likely scenario, anyway). Whether Rhaegar wanted a female on the throne we don't know - I honestly doubt that. Pretty much nobody wants a female monarch in Westeros. And there is no indication that Rhaegar doted on Rhaenys the way Viserys I doted on Rhaenyra. We do know, however, that Rhaegar wanted sons.

I agree with a lot of this - naming a female heir is likely to bring only trouble. Indeed, marrying Rhaenys and Viserys could solve this problem, however, Targaryen kings also looked for allies when they married off their children, and with the dragons out of the picture the preservation of the pure bloodline had no practical purpose. Anyway, exactly because Aerys could rule for many years yet, it wouldn't be Rhaegar's decision alone to marry Viserys and Rhaenys. It was impossible to predict what Aerys would want when the time came. If Rhaegar wanted any such thing, marrying two of his own  children would be more in his power.  

In any case, just because an outsider thinks there were enough Targaryens for that generation already, Rhaegar, personally, could still want a son of his own to be the spare instead of Viserys - it would be the preference of most lords, I think. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Finally, if Rhaegar really thought so much in dynastic and bloodline terms as you imply here then the proper way to resolve all this would have been the get rid of his wife. It was Elia's duty to produce children for the royal dynasty, so he should have impregnated her a third time, allowed her to die in childbirth, so he could grieve, for a time, and then take himself a new, healthy, and properly fertile wife.

I don't think I implied that Rhaegar thought in dynastic terms any more than it was usual or normal for a crown prince or any heir to a significant title. It was always advisable that an heir, especially the heir to the throne, should produce at least two sons, no matter how many other males were in the larger family. Every lord wants his own children to inherit after him. Brothers and nephews come into the picture when there is no other possibility. 

As for killing Elia by forcing her to have another child - it would have been horribly cruel, and I can see why a decent, sensitive man wouldn't want to do that, even if he was not madly in love with his wife.   

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But then again - Rhaegar had two healthy children. A daughter and a son who could marry each other and continue the royal line. That was enough. Very few Targaryens had many children, and very few seem to have been obsessed with or concerned about producing ten or a dozen children to protect against high child mortality rates, etc.

I'm not talking about ten or a dozen, just a second son. And I'm not saying Rhagear definitely had this in mind - we don't know enough about him to tell that - but it is a perfectly possible and understandable concern, in my opinion.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And historically it is quite clear that things go to hell if you have children from two wives. That's what gave the Realm Maegor the Cruel and the Dance of the Dragons (and, in a sense, also the Blackfyre rebellions). Remarrying is only a good option if you actually don't have any heirs. If both Elia's children and an unknown number of Lyanna's children had lived there would have been another succession war. Either immediately after Rhaegar's death, or after the death of Rhaegar's successor. A King Aegon VI may have gotten along with his half-siblings, but their children may have had ambitions of their own. Just as Maegor got along with King Aenys and accepted him on the Iron Throne - but refused to bow to Aenys' sons.

The same problem exists in the case of cousins and uncles and nephews. Even if you have sons by only one wife, it is always possible that a generation later your granchildren will fight each other. If lords were seriously concerned about that, they would all stop having sex with their wives after their first child (son) is born. Yet, apparently, in this world lords like to have "an heir and a spare" and they tend to be more concerned about not having a child to inherit after them than about the problems caused by having too many heirs. I'm not saying the problems you mention do not exist, but I do think Rhaegar would have had to be exceptionally far-sighted for his class and the society he lived in if he had worried about the possibilities you mention, instead of just assuring the simultaneous survival of his name and his DNA. Besides, if we accept R+L=J, then I guess we have to accept at least that Rhaegar doesn't seem to have been averse to fathering a child on a woman other than Elia, whatever his reasons may have been.   

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

It was his duty to produce heirs while he was able to do it - like all other noblemen. It doesn't mean an unusual amount of worry about the future, just what is normal in this society and culture.

Again, as per the culture two children would be enough. Hoster has one son, Tywin two, and neither of those men ever remarried. Technically you are correct that everybody should be obsessed with using their wives as brood mares - not just because of high child mortality (which is only realistically depicted in the many deaths of Aerys II's children) but also because many children are seen as a sign of wealth, power, and the favor of the gods in such societies. Walder Frey is envied for his many children, not ridiculed.

I mean, Aegon the Conqueror's two sons are literally ridiculous. In realistic scenario this wouldn't have nearly been enough, and caused a lot uncertainty and turmoil in the young united Realm - especially during the first years when they had no heir whatsoever.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

How long Aerys or Rhaegar himself would rule has nothing to do with Rhaegar having to secure succession.

By the standards of his family he had already done that. And it is not that it was clear by the time of his son's birth that Prince Rhaegar would ever sit the Iron Throne and continue the royal branch of House Targaryen. His father was considering to disinherit the man. A realistic depiction of Rhaegar the Politician would have him to concern with his own political future more than how many sons he might have.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

As for Elia dying due to poor health... you know, I have always found it totally possible (not proven, mind you, just a possible scenario) that Elia's poor health could mean more than what the reader has been told so far - that she was perhaps not likely to live long and Rhaegar knew this. Of course, in this case, Rhaegar didn't have to rush things on account of Elia, but, if he wanted to marry Lyanna specifically, he had to prevent the planned marriage between Lyanna and Robert. 

Doesn't sound very likely to me. She lived throughout the entire war, and Aegon was born months before it began. If she had some lethal disease it was working rather slowly.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I agree with a lot of this - naming a female heir is likely to bring only trouble. Indeed, marrying Rhaenys and Viserys could solve this problem, however, Targaryen kings also looked for allies when they married off their children, and with the dragons out of the picture the preservation of the pure bloodline had no practical purpose.

One king tried to do that - Aegon V - and he failed. Daeron II's daughters-in-law don't look like the houses you turn to when you want powerful allies (aside from Alys Arryn, of course). We don't know any details about those marriages.

During the days of Aerys II it was very clear that the Targaryens married their own.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Anyway, exactly because Aerys could rule for many years yet, it wouldn't be Rhaegar's decision alone to marry Viserys and Rhaenys. It was impossible to predict what Aerys would want when the time came. If Rhaegar wanted any such thing, marrying two of his own  children would be more in his power.

Sure, but if we assume Daenerys is never born then Rhaenys is the only Targaryen bride available for Viserys. And if Aegon is dead then she could marry no other Targaryen.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

In any case, just because an outsider thinks there were enough Targaryens for that generation already, Rhaegar, personally, could still want a son of his own to be the spare instead of Viserys - it would be the preference of most lords, I think.

See above. He wasn't yet a lord and shouldn't have been that confident that he would ever rule as king. Why build a house when you can't be sure you'll live in it?

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

As for killing Elia by forcing her to have another child - it would have been horribly cruel, and I can see why a decent, sensitive man wouldn't want to do that, even if he was not madly in love with his wife.   

Women's battles are in the birthing bed, no? It wouldn't have been nice, but if the man really wanted a spare this would have been the way to go. Elia was his wife, no one else. Considering that they never actually loved each other Rhaegar would have had no use for a barren wife at his side if he wanted children.

But again, he could also have pressured her to join the Faith.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I'm not talking about ten or a dozen, just a second son. And I'm not saying Rhagear definitely had this in mind - we don't know enough about him to tell that - but it is a perfectly possible and understandable concern, in my opinion.

Well, that's where the series is unrealistic. We should have 2-3 children to each child that lives to adulthood, with some dying as infants, and some dying in childhood.

Your argument was that Rhaegar would have wanted a spare because he could not be sure that Aegon would live to be a man. And I agree that this wasn't all that unlikely. But then he should really have looked for as many children as possible simply because they could all die, just like his many siblings did.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

The same problem exists in the case of cousins and uncles and nephews. Even if you have sons by only one wife, it is always possible that a generation later your granchildren will fight each other.

Technically this should be the case, but the way George describes his noble families full siblings stick together, and half-siblings kill each other. That's a repeated motive, and it would be an established fact of history for Rhaegar and all the other people in this world.

I'd have liked it if Rhaenyra and Aegon II had been full siblings, but the author went down another path.

The general trend is that uncles and nephews do not challenge the claims of their main branch kin.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

If lords were seriously concerned about that, they would all stop having sex with their wives after their first child (son) is born. Yet, apparently, in this world lords like to have "an heir and a spare" and they tend to be more concerned about not having a child to inherit after them than about the problems caused by having too many heirs. I'm not saying the problems you mention do not exist, but I do think Rhaegar would have had to be exceptionally far-sighted for his class and the society he lived in if he had worried about the possibilities you mention, instead of just assuring the simultaneous survival of his name and his DNA.

The fact that bringing in a new wife - or legitimize bastards - is causing trouble is something people are aware of. Cat warns Robb citing the Blackfyre example using exactly my argument. Jon won't turn against him - but who knows what Jon's children might do?

The idea that Rhaegar could have had a happy and united family with two queens at his side from such great houses as Martell and Stark is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Even if the women had gotten along, their families and bannermen wouldn't have gotten along. And the children would have felt them, and they would have developed their own sympathies and antipathies. We see this with Rhaenyra and Alicent. Neither of these two women wanted to go where they went, but it couldn't be helped.

37 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Besides, if we accept R+L=J, then I guess we have to accept at least that Rhaegar doesn't seem to have been averse to fathering a child on a woman other than Elia, whatever his reasons may have been.   

Sure, but that's love + prophecy coming in the mix. Right now I though we were discussing whether it makes sense that Rhaegar would just do something as stupid as he did because his wife no longer could have any children. And I really think the way George portrays his noble and royal families this is exceedingly unlikely.

It may have likely figured into all that, creating the mix of love for Lyanna + belief that Aegon was the promised prince + the knowledge that Elia either no longer could get pregnant or would most likely not be able survive a pregnancy (which could also result in a miscarriage or stillbirth) = mad actions.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Even if you have sons by only one wife, it is always possible that a generation later your granchildren will fight each other.

/cough/ Stannis and Renly /cough/

Apparently, you don't even need to wait for a generation

 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

/cough/ Stannis and Renly /cough/

Apparently, you don't even need to wait for a generation

Rhaegar cannot see the future. At least as far as we know. And one hopes he didn't have prophetic dreams about Stannis...