Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

417 posts in this topic

On 2/10/2018 at 10:42 AM, Sly Wren said:

snip

 

Are you saying the point isn't that Lyanna only started loving the scent of winter roses after Rhaegar crowned her, but that she didn't stop once he did? I think that would make sense. And a lot of that would fit neatly with RLJ. I think if we're extrapolating this information onto Lyanna, the Poison Kisses giving Arya a rash seems like it could parallel Rhaegar's poison kiss giving Lyanna a fever. It's fairly common for a fever to accompany a rash, after all. They're something of a pair. 

On 2/10/2018 at 10:42 AM, Sly Wren said:

Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water

In retrospect, I've always wondered if this line might be a sort of call forward if you will, to Dany's vision of a blue rose growing out of the Wall, if you read stagnant as meaning still. Since ice is water that doesn't move. Not only that but stagnant can also indicate that the water had gone bad from inaction. Loosely speaking you could describe the Watch this way too, I suppose. They were low on numbers even before the battle at the Fist of the First Men and the mutiny at Craster's. Afterwards, it's all they can do to hold the Wall. Thank R'hllor for Stannis. ;) 

Truth be told I'm not very confident that any of this is correct or intended, but maybe there's something there, so I just wanted to mention it.

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I was just picking on the whole Crypt aspect of this theory else where so i thought id pop in here to maybe see if there was something other than Rhaegars harp that they think is in Lyanna's Crypts that is calling to Jon that Jon will find and reveal his secret lineage by just looking at it. 

( I imagine Jon staring at a harp quite puzzled my self.) 

As i mentioned else where.

Quote

 

Why would Eddard carry Rhaegars frggin harp all the way back to the North to put in a crypt? That must be one one those small hand harps? Cause a real harp is freakin big yo. Thats like burying your sister with a piano. 

Plus, why would Eddard hide a secret for Jon in her tomb? Thats weird. Why would he assume Jon would molest her grave and open it?

Eddard could easily have told Jon the truth had he wanted with out all that weirdness. Also, Mance is looking for those crypts? Why would Mance care? 

 

 

So just to double check my self i wanted to glean more insight as to what maybe in the crypts? 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Eddard carry Rhaegars frggin harp all the way back to the North to put in a crypt?

If she wanted it, he would have to.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That must be one one those small hand harps? Cause a real harp is freakin big yo. Thats like burying your sister with a piano. 

Certainly. In the HotU vision, Rhaegar picks a harp, doesn't sit down to one.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Plus, why would Eddard hide a secret for Jon in her tomb? Thats weird. Why would he assume Jon would molest her grave and open it?

He didn't assume he wouldn't be around to tell and possibly show Jon himself, so the bolded is really a moot point. As for why in the grave, you have answered that question yourself - because people normally don't go looking into graves, so if something is really hidden in there, it should be perfectly safe.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Eddard could easily have told Jon the truth had he wanted with out all that weirdness.

He could, but if a proof was ever required, he had better have one somewhere safe.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, Mance is looking for those crypts? Why would Mance care? 

Where is it stated that Mance is looking for the crypts for the same reason? The legend of Bael states the crypts as a perfect hiding place, which is something that a person in Mance's position might want to use (where else best hide a kidnapped "Stark" girl?). There could also be other wildling legends hinting at e.g. a secret entrance through the crypts, or, I don't know, some connection to the horn of Joramun or something like that which Mance could be interested in.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So just to double check my self i wanted to glean more insight as to what maybe in the crypts? 

- a dragon egg

- Targaryen wedding cloak

- a document (Ned's own confession, a signed testimony or a royal decree acknowledging R+L marriage)

- the HH flower crown

- Rhaegar's ashes

- Dark Sister or something else clearly related to the Targaryens

- Lyanna's correspondence with Rhaegar

- whatever else you can come up with that would hint at Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar

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49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

- whatever else you can come up with that would hint at Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar

No hint that it exists anymore than most of your list, but a letter to Lyanna's newborn child written as she realizes not all went well in his birth. If such a thing did exist, then Ned would likely hesitate to destroy Lyanna's last words to Jon, but he also would want such a letter hidden beyond any causal viewer's curious gaze. Her tomb might be such a place.

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No hint that it exists anymore than most of your list, but a letter to Lyanna's newborn child written as she realizes not all went well in his birth. If such a thing did exist, then Ned would likely hesitate to destroy Lyanna's last words to Jon, but he also would want such a letter hidden beyond any causal viewer's curious gaze. Her tomb might be such a place.

I like the idea :-)

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4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No hint that it exists anymore than most of your list,

Yea my point too. What are we even told of?

http://www.frommyharp.com/images/photo11.jpg

For context, still not something you bury some one with 

Again, really morbid place to hide something when there are plenty of other areas. Specially since he is lord and could just lock a chest and say buzz off and keep the key. Further, Ned isn't that smart or secretive. And what makes every one so sure Ned was ever even gonna tell Jon? Where is that implied? Why would Eddard think to him self, im never gonna die, so i can just tell him when im old. Then hide something just incase he does die? And why wait so long? Why tell him at that point at all? Just to piss him off? Are we hoping Howland tips Jon to go rooting through his aunts tomb? I just dont see what is supposed to compel Jon to open his aunts tomb out of no wheres? The Crypts are calling to him sure, but not her tomb. 

The crypts are connected if anything to Bael the Bard. Abel, Mance. Who has his spear wives looking for a way in. No im not providing quotes, go read the book. Im just here seeking explanations on what's in there and more importantly, what it is that's supposed to make Jon desecrate his aunts tomb? Eggs, or other imaginary thing people can come up with other than Rhaegars already mentioned harp which is big, even if it's a hand harp. 

Seems to me alot better ways to go about this that aren't as morgish. Or as reliant on hope and chance that he may open his aunts tomb. And what if Robert opened it for some reason? It was his beloved after all and he would have more reason than Jon. 

And you still have the issue of why hide it from Cat. That's a secret Cat would be happy to hear and keep. Jon isn't Eddards??? Robbs inheritance isn't in threat??? Woooohoooooo!!!! Suddenly Cat loves Jon, treats him with respect, doesnt give a fugggggg, cause she gets everything she wants and Eddard is spared a mad and jealous wife. There is literally no reason in the world Cat would spill the beans. She would understand everything and be happier. 

So Eddard, just for fun to upset his wife lets her believe a lie. Then hides the truth in her crypt with her dead rotting body for Jon to maybe find some day. 

Lyanna's final words as she lay dying include. 

Take me home and bury me in the crypts, also, bury me with a lovely token that will let my son finally know who is parents are. Untill then though, you must never tell any one. No one. Even though your wife will think your a cheat and that you whore about like other dishonorable men.  I thought of a name for my son too, but i used up all my breath securing the terms of our bargain, so now you must name him. Promise Ned, Promise me..... Oh wait, before i die. Go to Starfall, they have a wet nurse and they'll play along with your alibi. Promise me, promise me, promise me. 

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33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Seems to me alot better ways to go about this that aren't as morgish. Or as reliant on hope and chance that he may open his aunts tomb. And what if Robert opened it for some reason? It was his beloved after all and he would have more reason than Jon. 

As I understand it, the statues are hollow. If Ned wanted to hide something at Lyanna's grave, he could have hid it inside the statue. That said, there are several levels to the crypts, we know that parts of them are collapsed. 

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And you still have the issue of why hide it from Cat. That's a secret Cat would be happy to hear and keep. Jon isn't Eddards??? Robbs inheritance isn't in threat??? Woooohoooooo!!!! Suddenly Cat loves Jon, treats him with respect, doesnt give a fugggggg, cause she gets everything she wants and Eddard is spared a mad and jealous wife. There is literally no reason in the world Cat would spill the beans. She would understand everything and be happier. 

I wouldn't be so sure that this secret would have made Catelyn happy if her behavior after Ned was offered the position of Hand is any indication. Ned didn't want it so she insisted that their family would be in danger if Ned didn't go to King's Landing and serve. Jon being fostered at Winterfell is like a ticking time bomb, if anything, I think. There's that moment when Ned wonders what Catelyn would do if it came down to the life of her children against Jon's life and hopes he never has to find out.

34 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Take me home and bury me in the crypts, also, bury me with a lovely token that will let my son finally know who is parents are. Untill then though, you must never tell any one. No one. Even though your wife will think your a cheat and that you whore about like other dishonorable men.  I thought of a name for my son too, but i used up all my breath securing the terms of our bargain, so now you must name him. Promise Ned, Promise me..... Oh wait, before i die. Go to Starfall, they have a wet nurse and they'll play along with your alibi. Promise me, promise me, promise me. 

The wet nurse may have already been there with Lyanna. I think a hint was dropped as to her whereabouts are in AFFC. And maybe Lyanna wanted to be taken back to Winterfell because that's where her child was going to be. I don't think you can underestimate that kind of love and the kind of strength that can be found in it. 

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52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Specially since he is lord and could just lock a chest and say buzz off and keep the key.

So that everyone knew that Lord Eddard has some super secret chest?

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And what makes every one so sure Ned was ever even gonna tell Jon? Where is that implied?

When he's in the Black Cells, he wishes to talk to Jon very urgently.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Eddard think to him self, im never gonna die, so i can just tell him when im old.

Oh, come on. Has it ever occured to you that Jon being a boy of fourteen might have something to do with not telling him?

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Then hide something just incase he does die? And why wait so long? Why tell him at that point at all?

Because, you know, his mother's identity is something he has always wanted to know?

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just to piss him off? Are we hoping Howland tips Jon to go rooting through his aunts tomb? I just dont see what is supposed to compel Jon to open his aunts tomb out of no wheres?

Why out of nowhere, when you have just said yourself that Howland might tip him off?

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im just here seeking explanations on what's in there

Seems more like dismissing stuff than really seeking.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and more importantly, what it is that's supposed to make Jon desecrate his aunts tomb?

If she's his mother and there's something she wanted him to have, it's not desecration.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Eggs, or other imaginary thing people can come up with other than Rhaegars already mentioned harp which is big, even if it's a hand harp. 

"Medieval harps in general were small and portable. Travelling musicians often had to carry their instruments on foot or horseback," http://www.celticharper.com/harpkind.html

"they can be from about 25” to 76” tall" https://www.harpspectrum.org/harpworks/choosing_a_harp.shtml

Your objection makes about as much sense as claiming that you absolutely cannot transport or entomb a guitar.

 

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Seems to me alot better ways to go about this that aren't as morgish.

Your sensitivities do not apply universally

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Or as reliant on hope and chance that he may open his aunts tomb.

I doubt that Ned expected to die at the age of 35, so the element of hope or chance wasn't really supposed to be present

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And what if Robert opened it for some reason? It was his beloved after all and he would have more reason than Jon. 

So now it wouldn't be a desecration? Double standards much.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And you still have the issue of why hide it from Cat. That's a secret Cat would be happy to hear and keep. Jon isn't Eddards??? Robbs inheritance isn't in threat??? Woooohoooooo!!!! Suddenly Cat loves Jon, treats him with respect, doesnt give a fugggggg, cause she gets everything she wants and Eddard is spared a mad and jealous wife. There is literally no reason in the world Cat would spill the beans. She would understand everything and be happier. 

Yeah, she would be totally happy finding out that her husband is committing treason and putting their children's inheritance and lives at risk.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So Eddard, just for fun to upset his wife lets her believe a lie. Then hides the truth in her crypt with her dead rotting body for Jon to maybe find some day. 

A nice case of incorrect reference there, the theory of Cat not being Cat would be quite entertaining :D

As for Lyanna, unless Ned had brought a lead coffing or a cask of amontillado along to ToJ, there is no way he could have transported Lyanna's corpse the whole way back, so it's either bones or ashes.

52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna's final words as she lay dying include. 

Take me home and bury me in the crypts, also, bury me with a lovely token that will let my son finally know who is parents are. Untill then though, you must never tell any one. No one. Even though your wife will think your a cheat and that you whore about like other dishonorable men.  I thought of a name for my son too, but i used up all my breath securing the terms of our bargain, so now you must name him. Promise Ned, Promise me..... Oh wait, before i die. Go to Starfall, they have a wet nurse and they'll play along with your alibi. Promise me, promise me, promise me. 

Wow, how funny. Would beeven more if straw was poking through the holes.

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

As I understand it, the statues are hollow.

They are? I don't recall the reference.

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23 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

They are? I don't recall the reference.

I've read it somewhere a few years back. So I could very well be perpetuating some asoiaf urban legend.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, really morbid place to hide something when there are plenty of other areas. Specially since he is lord and could just lock a chest and say buzz off and keep the key. Further, Ned isn't that smart or secretive. And what makes every one so sure Ned was ever even gonna tell Jon? Where is that implied? Why would Eddard think to him self, im never gonna die, so i can just tell him when im old. Then hide something just incase he does die? And why wait so long? Why tell him at that point at all? Just to piss him off? Are we hoping Howland tips Jon to go rooting through his aunts tomb? I just dont see what is supposed to compel Jon to open his aunts tomb out of no wheres? The Crypts are calling to him sure, but not her tomb. 

The crypts are connected if anything to Bael the Bard. Abel, Mance. Who has his spear wives looking for a way in. No im not providing quotes, go read the book. Im just here seeking explanations on what's in there and more importantly, what it is that's supposed to make Jon desecrate his aunts tomb? Eggs, or other imaginary thing people can come up with other than Rhaegars already mentioned harp which is big, even if it's a hand harp. 

Seems to me alot better ways to go about this that aren't as morgish. Or as reliant on hope and chance that he may open his aunts tomb. And what if Robert opened it for some reason? It was his beloved after all and he would have more reason than Jon. 

Jon is compelled by his dreams, not anything Ned has control over, to keep returning to the tombs. If there is something of importance there for him to see, it was never placed there by Ned for Jon to discover. It is some other force that directs Jon's dreams that is moving the story towards Jon's journey to Lyanna's tomb. Why would Ned hide objects there? Because they were important to Lyanna. Rhaegar's harp or the crown of winter roses he gave to Lyanna would fit this category. Or these objects holdsecrets that Lyanna must literally take to her grave. A letter to Jon might fit in this group of possible grave goods. If it is something that Ned cannot bear to destroy, and would tell Jon's secret to the world, then Lyanna's tomb is a very good hiding place. No one, including Jon, is expected to ransack her remains and discover the secret. He maybe forced by his dreams to open her tomb, but it isn't because Ned wanted him to do so.

 

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And you still have the issue of why hide it from Cat. That's a secret Cat would be happy to hear and keep. Jon isn't Eddards??? Robbs inheritance isn't in threat??? Woooohoooooo!!!! Suddenly Cat loves Jon, treats him with respect, doesnt give a fugggggg, cause she gets everything she wants and Eddard is spared a mad and jealous wife. There is literally no reason in the world Cat would spill the beans. She would understand everything and be happier. 

So Eddard, just for fun to upset his wife lets her believe a lie. Then hides the truth in her crypt with her dead rotting body for Jon to maybe find some day. 

Don't be silly. Ned tells us clearly that there are some secrets one can tell no one. If Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then it is a secret that threatens Jon, Ned, and  everyone around them. The only way to protect all the people Ned loves is to not tell them anything about this most dangerous bit of knowledge. He certainly can't take a chance that Catelyn would have to choose between her own children and the life of Jon.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna's final words as she lay dying include. 

Take me home and bury me in the crypts, also, bury me with a lovely token that will let my son finally know who is parents are. Untill then though, you must never tell any one. No one. Even though your wife will think your a cheat and that you whore about like other dishonorable men.  I thought of a name for my son too, but i used up all my breath securing the terms of our bargain, so now you must name him. Promise Ned, Promise me..... Oh wait, before i die. Go to Starfall, they have a wet nurse and they'll play along with your alibi. Promise me, promise me, promise me. 

All we know of Lyanna's dying words is her plea to Ned to "promise me" somethings - as in plural. Your attempt to say what those words were aren't exactly convincing. Many of us, for very good reason, think those words included asking Ned to promise to hide her child away, as Ned's own, from the wrath of others - including the new king of Westeros. Beyond that I wouldn't care to speculate.

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19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So just to double check my self i wanted to glean more insight as to what maybe in the crypts? 

The Dawn sword of Daynes.

And nobody wouldn't even notice it there. Because there it will be just some sword, amongst many other swords buried in those crypts. And it's dark in there, so even with lit torches, if people won't be searching there specifically for the Dawn, then they won't find it. 

And this is how Jon, finding that sword, may reveal his real parentage: if Jon will find sword of Daynes in Winterfell's crypts, he will start wandering why is it there, if according to Ned Stark's story, he brought the sword to Starfall? Thus Jon, whom at that time will be in charge of Winterfell and The North, will summon Howland Reed to come to Winterfell. And Howland will come there with his wife Jyana Reed, who is actually Ashara Dayne. She was present at Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon. Thus she will tell to Jon, that his real parents were Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. And that when Rhaegar was leaving Dorne, and going to war, he left Lyanna and his unborn baby under care of Arthur and Ashara. According to 7K's traditions, the baby is named by its father. So Rhaegar has chosen Arthur to become his baby's godfather, and name it in Rhaegar's place. Probably - Aegon, if it will be a boy, and Visenya (or Rhaenys), if it will be a girl. So when Arthur Dayne died, his sister decided to left his sword for Jon, because Jon was Arthur's godson, and his King.

And the reason why Jon will find the Dawn in those crypts, is because he will go there to see, what could have caused his nightmares about that place. And when he will be there, the Dawn will start to glow. Because this sword is a Lightbringer, and Jon is Azor Ahai, so the sword's true power will be activated in Jon's presence. Jon saw those dreams about Winterfell's crypts, because the sword was calling him.

P.S. If Rhaegar thought that his baby will be definitely a girl, and thus he didn't told Arthur a name for a boy, then Arthur has chosen by himself name Aegon. Because his relative, Queen Dyanna Dayne, named one of her sons (the Egg) Aegon. And out of her four sons, he lived the happiest life. So Aegon is a good name.

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Jon is compelled by his dreams, not anything Ned has control over, to keep returning to the tombs. If there is something of importance there for him to see, it was never placed there by Ned for Jon to discover. It is some other force that directs Jon's dreams that is moving the story towards Jon's journey to Lyanna's tomb.

:agree:

My theory about what is calling to Jon, is a bit above, in this post.

Edited by Megorova

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

The Dawn sword of Daynes.

And nobody wouldn't even notice it there. Because there it will be just some sword, amongst many other swords buried in those crypts. And it's dark in there, so even with lit torches, if people won't be searching there specifically for the Dawn, then they won't find it. 

And this is how Jon, finding that sword, may reveal his real parentage: if Jon will find sword of Daynes in Winterfell's crypts, he will start wandering why is it there, if according to Ned Stark's story, he brought the sword to Starfall? Thus Jon, whom at that time will be in charge of Winterfell and The North, will summon Howland Reed to come to Winterfell. And Howland will come there with his wife Jyana Reed, who is actually Ashara Dayne. She was present at Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon. Thus she will tell to Jon, that his real parents were Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. And that when Rhaegar was leaving Dorne, and going to war, he left Lyanna and his unborn baby under care of Arthur and Ashara. According to 7K's traditions, the baby is named by its father. So Rhaegar has chosen Arthur to become his baby's godfather, and name it in Rhaegar's place. Probably - Aegon, if it will be a boy, and Visenya (or Rhaenys), if it will be a girl. So when Arthur Dayne died, his sister decided to left his sword for Jon, because Jon was Arthur's godson, and his King.

And the reason why Jon will find the Dawn in those crypts, is because he will go there to see, what could have caused his nightmares about that place. And when he will be there, the Dawn will start to glow. Because this sword is a Lightbringer, and Jon is Azor Ahai, so the sword's true power will be activated in Jon's presence. Jon saw those dreams about Winterfell's crypts, because the sword was calling him.

George told us Dawn is at Starfall.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193

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14 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

As I understand it, the statues are hollow. If Ned wanted to hide something at Lyanna's grave, he could have hid it inside the statue. That said, there are several levels to the crypts, we know that parts of them are collapsed. 

I wouldn't be so sure that this secret would have made Catelyn happy if her behavior after Ned was offered the position of Hand is any indication. Ned didn't want it so she insisted that their family would be in danger if Ned didn't go to King's Landing and serve. Jon being fostered at Winterfell is like a ticking time bomb, if anything, I think. There's that moment when Ned wonders what Catelyn would do if it came down to the life of her children against Jon's life and hopes he never has to find out.

The wet nurse may have already been there with Lyanna. I think a hint was dropped as to her whereabouts are in AFFC. And maybe Lyanna wanted to be taken back to Winterfell because that's where her child was going to be. I don't think you can underestimate that kind of love and the kind of strength that can be found in it. 

Hmm, as i understood it Ned carried her bones back along with Ser Williams horse and buried her in the crypts. 

That said, i would lean more towards something else in those crypts calling him than that, hence the mystery of the lowest levels. Thats the secret IMO. Even if his parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar. (Which im torn on these days, hence im playing devil's advocate here for any curious. Bael and Alysanne have forever changed my views. Not that they still couldn't lead to Rhaegar and Lyanna, but i have to understand how then. I just used to accept this theory cause all the other ones didn't add up. Now that i've actually looked into it, i can't help but see Mance/Abel as Jon's father. Which mirrors the story of Bael the Bard plucking a Stark Maid and leaving her with child that the King beyond the Wall faces later.) 

And maybe. As i understood that passage you mention though, it's in context to Cat believing Jon is Eddards, so Eddards question is in that context. Jon is a threat still in that context as the son of Eddard. As the child of Lyanna, he has no claim. Only after Robb and them were dead. As possible King of Westeros, something Cat's kids could never hope to achieve except by marriage, Cat may even see a marriage between Jon and one of her daughters as beneficial to climbing that social ladder.

And there is a chance loosely based around the line "they found" when talking about them finding him still clutching Lyanna. To which he says he remembers none of it. 

Ultimate point being that for a dying woman, who wasn't able to name her kid. She did alot of talking else wise to Eddard. Seems odd to me.

Kind of right up there with Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name with his dying breath. How? His chest was crushed by a war hammer. I dont know if you've ever been hit in the solar plex, but it's hard to talk other than wees. And who ran up past Robert to where Rhaegar lay dying in the water to press his ears up to Rhaegars lips to hear him whisper this. I doubt one of Robert's men. I doubt Robert spread this tale either. Sounds like something made up. And why? Why whisper her name even? Cause you were in love? Really? You did it all for Lyanna? Started a rebellion, got alot of people killed including her and your self, and thought what? You would win and the lords would back you kidnapping another lords child? And all the realm would stand behind him in hushed silence with only the soft word of Lyanna slipping past there lips as they stand over the ruins of half of Westeros and it's noble houses on the noble mission to take Rhaegar a bride and put him on the throne. . Beautiful. Beautiful f*cking idiot. That's what Rhaegar is. Does that even work in fairy tales? What was he smoking? 

Really, you have to wonder if logic or rational was going through this guys head. And he's the guy that's gonna lead Westeros after Aerys II? Last i checked, Aerys started off young and handsome and liked as well. 

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:
6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon is compelled by his dreams, not anything Ned has control over, to keep returning to the tombs. If there is something of importance there for him to see, it was never placed there by Ned for Jon to discover. It is some other force that directs Jon's dreams that is moving the story towards Jon's journey to Lyanna's tomb.

And nobody wouldn't even notice it there. Because there it will be just some sword, amongst many other swords buried in those crypts. And it's dark in there, so even with lit torches, if people won't be searching there specifically for the Dawn, then they won't find it. 

And this is how Jon, finding that sword, may reveal his real parentage: if Jon will find sword of Daynes in Winterfell's crypts, he will start wandering why is it there, if according to Ned Stark's story, he brought the sword to Starfall? Thus Jon, whom at that time will be in charge of Winterfell and The North, will summon Howland Reed to come to Winterfell. And Howland will come there with his wife Jyana Reed, who is actually Ashara Dayne. She was present at Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon. Thus she will tell to Jon, that his real parents were Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. And that when Rhaegar was leaving Dorne, and going to war, he left Lyanna and his unborn baby under care of Arthur and Ashara. According to 7K's traditions, the baby is named by its father. So Rhaegar has chosen Arthur to become his baby's godfather, and name it in Rhaegar's place. Probably - Aegon, if it will be a boy, and Visenya (or Rhaenys), if it will be a girl. So when Arthur Dayne died, his sister decided to left his sword for Jon, because Jon was Arthur's godson, and his King.

And the reason why Jon will find the Dawn in those crypts, is because he will go there to see, what could have caused his nightmares about that place. And when he will be there, the Dawn will start to glow. Because this sword is a Lightbringer, and Jon is Azor Ahai, so the sword's true power will be activated in Jon's presence. Jon saw those dreams about Winterfell's crypts, because the sword was calling him.

P.S. If Rhaegar thought that his baby will be definitely a girl, and thus he didn't told Arthur a name for a boy, then Arthur has chosen by himself name Aegon. Because his relative, Queen Dyanna Dayne, named one of her sons (the Egg) Aegon. And out of her four sons, he lived the happiest life. So Aegon is a good name.

:agree:

My theory about what is calling to Jon, is a bit above, in this post.

Well why would some one else stick something in her tomb? And if Eddard, again, why? Eddard can't even enter dreams like some to make Jon have these dreams that are calling him. 

Why would BR, Marwyn, or Quiathe, hide something pertaining to Jon's parentage in the Crypt of Lyanna or the Crypts in general? Why would they know or care? 

Take BR. What purpose does it serve to tell Jon who his parents are. You simply need him for the war. Him knowing his parents doesn't effect the war or battle. Just his inheritance if he survives. Which he didn't.  SO. 

And as far as Dawn, GRRM has gone on record stating that it's in Star Fall awaiting the next heir. Jon's a little far and Edric hasn't been in Starfall since book 1. So he doesn't have it. Only people getting at that thing are Aegon or Dany imo. 

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10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Jon is compelled by his dreams, not anything Ned has control over, to keep returning to the tombs. If there is something of importance there for him to see, it was never placed there by Ned for Jon to discover. It is some other force that directs Jon's dreams that is moving the story towards Jon's journey to Lyanna's tomb. Why would Ned hide objects there? Because they were important to Lyanna. Rhaegar's harp or the crown of winter roses he gave to Lyanna would fit this category. Or these objects holdsecrets that Lyanna must literally take to her grave. A letter to Jon might fit in this group of possible grave goods. If it is something that Ned cannot bear to destroy, and would tell Jon's secret to the world, then Lyanna's tomb is a very good hiding place. No one, including Jon, is expected to ransack her remains and discover the secret. He maybe forced by his dreams to open her tomb, but it isn't because Ned wanted him to do so.

 

Don't be silly. Ned tells us clearly that there are some secrets one can tell no one. If Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then it is a secret that threatens Jon, Ned, and  everyone around them. The only way to protect all the people Ned loves is to not tell them anything about this most dangerous bit of knowledge. He certainly can't take a chance that Catelyn would have to choose between her own children and the life of Jon.

All we know of Lyanna's dying words is her plea to Ned to "promise me" somethings - as in plural. Your attempt to say what those words were aren't exactly convincing. Many of us, for very good reason, think those words included asking Ned to promise to hide her child away, as Ned's own, from the wrath of others - including the new king of Westeros. Beyond that I wouldn't care to speculate.

Why would BR, Marwyn, or Quiathe, hide something pertaining to Jon's parentage in the Crypt of Lyanna or the Crypts in general? Why would they know or care? 

Take BR. What purpose does it serve to tell Jon who his parents are. You simply need him for the war. Him knowing his parents doesn't effect the war or battle. Just his inheritance if he survives. Which he didn't.  

And what? There is no choice between them if Eddard tells her the truth. That's my point. His whole pain in the butt with her would be settled. Cat would no longer feel threatened by Jon as he is no threat. This is a secret she can and would keep out of the love of her husband for what he's doing and for being honest to her. Then it's just them against the world. And we know Eddard loved and trusted Cat. He even expected her to actually go North and call the banners like he asked. HE believes in her, and he trust her and i think that's important. 

That's only  one promise me though, not promises. And why not? It is kind of important. and yes the dialogue i made up wasn't supposed to be convincing lol the point still stands. Supposedly she talked to him long enough to make him swear to some promises. Yet she didn't name her own child, Eddard did. I dont buy it. She may have made him promise something, but not somethings. Promises goes beyond Lyanna and Jon and into Daenerys. Cause that's when he thinks of broken promises after failing to stop the assassins against Dany and upon sitting in the dungeons. While Jon is safe. So broken promises has nothing to do with keeping Jon Safe. Jon is safe, Dany is not. 

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https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/oaoa.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/a7/9a7677c6-e80d-11e6-a611-ffe7e35d9c72/58911eac7d82e.image.jpg?resize=760%2C537

High Harp for visual reference. 

 

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"
"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Meaning,Rhaegar had a harp which he carried along, AND a high harp which he played in the hall of the Red Keep.

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While it is not impossible that there is stuff in Lyanna's grave, it would be both tasteless and childish to actually make use of that awfully convenient plot device.

In what kind of scenario does a child actually desecrate the grave of his own mother? What could be gained by shoving Lyanna's rotting, stinking corpse into the face of the reader (and Jon Snow)?

Jon is not going to investigate Lyanna's tomb unless he has a good reason to do so. Which means he'll already know who he his mother is at that point. And if he knows that, he won't require further 'proof', nor should he ever contemplate looking for it in his mother's grave.

For Jon, Howland Reed, Wylla, and Bran (especially him, if he is going to play the role of an old god when revealing this) will be more than enough to convince him of his true parentage

The crypts are important for Jon because his mother is down there. He'll learn that eventually, and then he'll pay her his respects, just as he is likely to pay Ned his respect once the man's bones are finally interred in the crypts beneath Winterfell.

The idea that some stupid artifact - be it some harp, a letter (which should be in pretty bad shape after spending years in the moist environment of the Winterfell crypts), or whatever else - is going to have an important impact on Jon (or whoever else finds this stuff) doesn't sound very plausible to me.

Even if people were to recognize Rhaegar's harp - it being in Lyanna's tomb doesn't help at all connecting Jon Snow to either Lyanna Stark or Rhaegar Targaryen. The fact that Lyanna and Rhaegar may have been in love - and even married (at least in their own minds) - might already be well known. But them loving and fucking each other doesn't Jon Snow their son, does it?

Jon could learn about the Rhaegar-Lyanna romance in a much simpler and less cheesy way, and he is likely to do just that. Just as Bran didn't need to find things hidden in Winterfell to learn about Harrenhal.

And a letter would be pretty much the cheapest plot device ever. What reason could Lyanna Stark possibly have to write such a letter? When she was dying she didn't yet know that her son would live - or be raised as Eddard's son. Why on earth would she write a letter to her son as her brother's bastard? Once Ned made his promise Lyanna apparently died. She wasn't exactly in a condition that would it likely for her to write while she was begging Ned to do what he eventually agreed to do.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would BR, Marwyn, or Quiathe, hide something pertaining to Jon's parentage in the Crypt of Lyanna or the Crypts in general? Why would they know or care? 

Take BR. What purpose does it serve to tell Jon who his parents are. You simply need him for the war. Him knowing his parents doesn't effect the war or battle. Just his inheritance if he survives. Which he didn't.

Of course I named none of those people as being responsible for Jon's dreams. The old nameless gods of the forest are more likely candidates for outside forces who would intrude into Jon's dreams. Could it be an old greenseer residing in the weirwood network? Who knows? All we know is that Jon has the dreams and Ned didn't plan for him to have to open Lyanna's tomb to see whatever, if anything, is there. We know in his dreams he is being driven to go into the crypts. We interpret this to be a clue there is something there of importance. It's a likely interpretation, but we will see.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And what? There is no choice between them if Eddard tells her the truth. That's my point. His whole pain in the butt with her would be settled. Cat would no longer feel threatened by Jon as he is no threat. This is a secret she can and would keep out of the love of her husband for what he's doing and for being honest to her. Then it's just them against the world. And we know Eddard loved and trusted Cat. He even expected her to actually go North and call the banners like he asked. HE believes in her, and he trust her and i think that's important. 

Nonsense. You presume Ned can assume Jon's safety if he tells Catelyn, but he tells us specifically that there are secrets that must not be shared even with those you love. He tells us of his worries if Catelyn would be force to choose between her own children and Jon. Ned's reasons for not telling Cat are spelled out. You just think your reasoning for why he should confide in Cat is better than the character. My response is that if he was willing to risk Jon's life by telling others his story then we would be dealing with a very different Ned and a very different backstory.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's only  one promise me though, not promises. And why not? It is kind of important. and yes the dialogue i made up wasn't supposed to be convincing lol the point still stands. Supposedly she talked to him long enough to make him swear to some promises. Yet she didn't name her own child, Eddard did. I dont buy it. She may have made him promise something, but not somethings. Promises goes beyond Lyanna and Jon and into Daenerys. Cause that's when he thinks of broken promises after failing to stop the assassins against Dany and upon sitting in the dungeons. While Jon is safe. So broken promises has nothing to do with keeping Jon Safe. Jon is safe, Dany is not. 

No, Ned recalls the promises he made to Lyanna and the price he paid to keep them. Look it up. It's here:

Quote

"That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them." (AGoT 401) bold emphasis added

Please note the plural. Sorry if I seem impatient, but this is basic stuff discussed many times in these threads.

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