R+L=J v.165

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

It still leaves the possibility open though, and George writes just as much to put the whole "It wasn't a war for Lyanna" to question. And at the very root of it, this seems to be the cause of many of the problems or reasons the war was fought in the first place. Brandon comes to demand his sister, Aerys imprisons him, lets his father know if you want your son, come and get him,they're both killed, Aerys demands the heads of the remaining Stark and Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn refuses to relinquish either boy, his banners are raised and then the war begins.

The question just is how important the Lyanna thing was. When exactly did this change from a fight for survival or avenging the honor of Lyanna to a movement which wanted to depose the king, eradicate House Targaryen entirely, and put Robert Baratheon on the Iron Throne?

What exactly was Jon Arryn's justification when he called his banners? What did Robert tell Stannis and his bannermen after he had returned to Storm's End? Was he playing the 'the Mad King is a tyrant' card? Or did he play the 'Rhaegar stole/raped my true love' card? We don't know yet.

We also don't know what exactly caused the Rebellion to gain steam. Robert became as prominent as he did, eventually becoming a pretender to the Iron Throne because he fought as well as he did, and that was most likely a huge part of what draw people to the banner of the rebels, but we don't know how many opportunists there were, etc.

Hoster Tully didn't join the rebels because he believed they were doing 'the right thing'.

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And not everyone believes Illyrio's Aegon is truly Rhaegars son,Tyrion expresses doubt for a time, Jon Connington seemingly raises the issue  of noticing "Aegon's" eyes being a different shade of purple than Rhaegars at a point of disagreement between the two, Doran and Arianne voice their doubts of the boys authenticity. And it's mentioned how Daenaerys may have a stronger claim to the Iron Throne because her identity isn't in question. This of course is raised by Kevan Lannister, however.

Tyrion deals with a youth with blue hair, living on a pole boat on the Rhoyne. The Westerosi will see a prince supported by the Golden Company, with silver-gold hair and purple eyes. And unlike the average Westerosi, Tyrion is pretty much a cynic, anyway.

The fact that Aegon's eyes are not exactly the same eyes as Rhaegar's is no indication that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son (nor is this presented as such an indication). If you check the descriptions for the Targaryen eye colors then Aerys II had purple eyes, Rhaegar had indigo eyes, Viserys III had pale lilac eyes, and Daenerys has violet eyes.

Historically, we also have King Aenys having lilac eyes and Alyssa Velaryon having purple eyes yet their daughter Alysanne had clear blue eyes.

That makes it pretty clear that it leads nowhere to guess at the parentage of people by comparing their eye colors.

The Martells will have to make a choice. With Dany not coming - and Quentyn being dead - that choice can only be Aegon or doing nothing yet again. They won't do nothing yet again.

Kevan is right, of course, to be afraid of Daenerys. She has dragons and she is a Targaryen. His king is a child reputed to be a bastard without a single drop of royal blood. He would stand pretty much no chance if Daenerys came knocking at his door.

[divica]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The question just is how important the Lyanna thing was. When exactly did this change from a fight for survival or avenging the honor of Lyanna to a movement which wanted to depose the king, eradicate House Targaryen entirely, and put Robert Baratheon on the Iron Throne?

What exactly was Jon Arryn's justification when he called his banners? What did Robert tell Stannis and his bannermen after he had returned to Storm's End? Was he playing the 'the Mad King is a tyrant' card? Or did he play the 'Rhaegar stole/raped my true love' card? We don't know yet.

We also don't know what exactly caused the Rebellion to gain steam. Robert became as prominent as he did, eventually becoming a pretender to the Iron Throne because he fought as well as he did, and that was most likely a huge part of what draw people to the banner of the rebels, but we don't know how many opportunists there were, etc.

Hoster Tully didn't join the rebels because he believed they were doing 'the right thing'.

 

I am amazed that nobody added things from a hightower/speton/citadel conspiracy to get rid of the targs with the rebellion. I would like to see a kind of whole compendium of beliavable conspiracies during the rebelion in chronological order lol

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The question just is how important the Lyanna thing was. When exactly did this change from a fight for survival or avenging the honor of Lyanna to a movement which wanted to depose the king, eradicate House Targaryen entirely, and put Robert Baratheon on the Iron Throne?

What exactly was Jon Arryn's justification when he called his banners? What did Robert tell Stannis and his bannermen after he had returned to Storm's End? Was he playing the 'the Mad King is a tyrant' card? Or did he play the 'Rhaegar stole/raped my true love' card? We don't know yet.

We also don't know what exactly caused the Rebellion to gain steam. Robert became as prominent as he did, eventually becoming a pretender to the Iron Throne because he fought as well as he did, and that was most likely a huge part of what draw people to the banner of the rebels, but we don't know how many opportunists there were, etc.

Hoster Tully didn't join the rebels because he believed they were doing 'the right thing'.

Tyrion deals with a youth with blue hair, living on a pole boat on the Rhoyne. The Westerosi will see a prince supported by the Golden Company, with silver-gold hair and purple eyes. And unlike the average Westerosi, Tyrion is pretty much a cynic, anyway.

The fact that Aegon's eyes are not exactly the same eyes as Rhaegar's is no indication that Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son (nor is this presented as such an indication). If you check the descriptions for the Targaryen eye colors then Aerys II had purple eyes, Rhaegar had indigo eyes, Viserys III had pale lilac eyes, and Daenerys has violet eyes.

Historically, we also have King Aenys having lilac eyes and Alyssa Velaryon having purple eyes yet their daughter Alysanne had clear blue eyes.

That makes it pretty clear that it leads nowhere to guess at the parentage of people by comparing their eye colors.

The Martells will have to make a choice. With Dany not coming - and Quentyn being dead - that choice can only be Aegon or doing nothing yet again. They won't do nothing yet again.

Kevan is right, of course, to be afraid of Daenerys. She has dragons and she is a Targaryen. His king is a child reputed to be a bastard without a single drop of royal blood. He would stand pretty much no chance if Daenerys came knocking at his door.

That's true, but thats not exactly what I'm saying. But it's interesting that Connington is only written to have noticed this, like one time? And it comes at a point of disagreement when Connington is surprised and doesn't at all agree with Aegon's plan to personally lead an army against the Tyrell's. It sort of casts doubts right there that Connington for maybe more reasons than one, may be beginning to doubt this plan to invade Westeros. And all the weird connections, like the statue in Illyrio's house of the Valyrian looking adolescent, that Illyrio claims is him, the relationship and some Illyrio's quotes and actions seem to say that he may have a closer relationship to Aegon than what he initially lets on to in the text.

[JNR]

On 12/15/2017 at 0:25 PM, Ran said:

Had he been in his right mind he would have taken the Starks hostage instead of murdering them,  no? What a remarkable mental failure that was!

Attempting to apply rational thought to Aerys seems a fool’s errand to me.

Well, I certainly agree he was nuts.  And I think we also agree on some other key points.  Namely, that Rhaegar had the power to command the KG despite not being king (just as Tyrion does in ACOK, of course), and that GRRM was not really speaking hypothetically on that subject in the Shaw interview.   And, of course, on Melisandre not being from Asshai.

Where we seem to differ is in the way Aerys was nuts.  I think, in Aerys' mind, killing Brandon and Rickard didn't represent a threat to himself (as far as he could see) because there wasn't a Rebellion yet. He was still quite the Trumpy, overconfident megalomaniac at this time.

But by the point we're talking about -- roughly halfway into the Rebellion -- he had become far more conscious of the danger to himself and his family and their power:

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"After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre."

So, if we believe Jaime, we know that the guy went in a few short months from "I can crush anybody" to "Holy shit, I'm in serious trouble."

And that's exactly why the very next sentence is:

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The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

Here we see Aerys rather sanely calculating what he can do to improve his odds of winning the war: ensure Dornish loyalty, get their troops under his direct control, and leverage Elia to do it.  

So in this context, the fact that he somehow failed -- at the same time and with the same motive -- to realize he could also take Lyanna hostage and notify Ned and Robert he could put her head on a spike is... well.  A bit surprising.  Perhaps the next book will shed some light on this.

[Ran]

But Lyanna is held by Rhaegar, who last I checked is a Targaryen. It’s really weird to argue that she wasn’t already a hostage, when one thinks about it just a bit. More importantly, the belief she had been seized by the Targaryens was why Robert was fighting...

Yeah, I’m not seeing what Aerys was supposed to do differently. Wasn’t it already a given that he was crazy and perfectly capable of killing Lyanna? Are you not making the rather large assumption that the rebels somehow knew that Lyanna’s fate was not already in Aerys’s hands? I think you are.

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

But Lyanna is held by Rhaegar, who last I checked is a Targaryen. It’s really weird to argue that she wasn’t already a hostage, when one thinks about it just a bit. More importantly, the belief she had been seized by the Targaryens was why Robert was fighting...

Yeah, I’m not seeing what Aerys was supposed to do differently. Wasn’t it already a given that he was crazy and perfectly capable of killing Lyanna? Are you not making the rather large assumption that the rebels somehow knew that Lyanna’s fate was not already in Aerys’s hands? I think you are.

If it were public knowledge that rhaegar had married Lyanna why would aerys kill her?

It would be the same as jon fighting the boltons because they kidnapped arya and ramsay married her. What would the boltons gain by threatning arya?

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

But Lyanna is held by Rhaegar, who last I checked is a Targaryen. It’s really weird to argue that she wasn’t already a hostage, when one thinks about it just a bit. More importantly, the belief she had been seized by the Targaryens was why Robert was fighting...

I think that's exactly the point - everyone whose name was not Robert Baratheon would be inclined to believe that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a mistress and thus wouldn't let her be harmed. Add to it Aerys' mistrust against Rhaegar and that Rhaegar couldn't be found in the first months of the Rebellion, and you arrive at the conclusion that while they are both Targaryen, each would have his own agenda concerning Lyanna. In this light, in fact, Rhaegar's agenda would be closer to that of the rebels, to keep Lyanna safe.

- Which brings me back to the point I failed to adress earlier, re: Ethan Glover. My apologies here, putting together something coherent during a bout of profound cold was next to impossible.

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The only thing that comes to mind is that he was let go to act as a message-bearer to the rebels, or it had something to do with his being younger than the rest and Aerys randomly decided to be merciful because, you know, crazy. The other way to go is something to do with his youth meant Aerys chose to leave him in the dungeons and he was released after the Sack, but his friendship with Ned makes it feel like he ought to have been out and participating in the war rather than cooped up for the vast majority of it.

Would it be possible that he and Ned became acquainted when Ethan was squiring for Brandon? IIRC, Ned did return home from the Vale from time to time.

However, I meant to propose that Ethan was released before the Trident, as Rhaegar's contingency plan should he fall, because that would leave Lyanna in a very vulnerable position. It would then explain how Ned learned about Lyanna's whereabouts and that her condition had better be kept secret. - There are, of course, other options, as well, I just thought this one might tie some loose ends together. What's your theory on how Ned learned?

[Ran]

I think the degree of knowledge regarding Aerys's and Rhaegar's relationship at the time of the rebellion would be pretty low. There wasn't much information going in or out. What we do know is that Brandon and co. thought that Rhaegar took Lyanna to King's Landing, no? And then didn't dare show his face. So I'm not strictly sure how or why they would then know that this was not the case. No one has discussed what sort of information was filtering to the rebels. Surely when various hands not named Rhaegar were appointed, I guess that would have made some take note. But perhaps it was just because Aerys was telling Rhaegar to keep Lyanna in a secure location? Or that Aerys was actually keeping Rhaegar out of the fighting? 

It's an area where we don't really know anything beyond the fact that the war is over the fact that the Targaryens have absconded with Lyanna. Whether it was part of a plan or just Rhaegar being crazy, who knows? But this notion that Aerys needed to bring Lyanna back to KL to be able to claim she's a hostage -- a claim he could have made at any time, really! -- doesn't work for me.

I think Ned learned about Lyanna's whereabouts from someone in the Tyrell host besieging Storm's End when he went there to make them bend the knee. Alternatively, Varys, if Ned questioned him as to where his sister was. I don't see why Ethan Glover would have known anything.

[Ygrain]

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think the degree of knowledge regarding Aerys's and Rhaegar's relationship at the time of the rebellion would be pretty low.

I'm not saying the assumption is unreasonable but the truth is, we don't know. The bad relationship between the two had been going on for some time, wouldn't it have become known among the mighty of the realm?

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

There wasn't much information going in or out. What we do know is that Brandon and co. thought that Rhaegar took Lyanna to King's Landing, no?

And that's yet another problem - why did Brandon think that in the first place, and why didn't he seem to bother to check if Rhaegar was there at all?

 

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think Ned learned about Lyanna's whereabouts from someone in the Tyrell host besieging Storm's End when he went there to make them bend the knee. Alternatively, Varys, if Ned questioned him as to where his sister was. I don't see why Ethan Glover would have known anything.

However, there is no hint in the text that Ned and Varys ever talked about this, nor is it a certain thing that Varys knew.

I proposed Ethan as specifically tasked by Rhaegar himself; he wouldn't know a thing otherwise.

[Ran]

It's an interesting idea. I'll have to think about it, but it feels weird. For one thing, doesn't at all explain why Ethan Glover was kept alive -- Rhaegar didn't show up in KL until near the end of the war. Just a coincidence then?

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I certainly agree he was nuts.  And I think we also agree on some other key points.  Namely, that Rhaegar had the power to command the KG despite not being king (just as Tyrion does in ACOK, of course), and that GRRM was not really speaking hypothetically on that subject in the Shaw interview.   And, of course, on Melisandre not being from Asshai.

Tyrion is the Acting Hand in ACoK. He speaks with the King's Voice. The Kingsguard have to obey him after he has been confirmed in that office by the Queen Regent. Prior to that Ser Mandon Moore has to be essentially threatened into allowing Tyrion to enter the Small Council chamber. Which shows how much authority this man had.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Where we seem to differ is in the way Aerys was nuts.  I think, in Aerys' mind, killing Brandon and Rickard didn't represent a threat to himself (as far as he could see) because there wasn't a Rebellion yet. He was still quite the Trumpy, overconfident megalomaniac at this time.

The man was making irrational decisions, but there are hints that he was still operating within the framework of reality. I mean, if he man did no longer know who or where he was his government and council would have established a regency, that much is clear. A king being completely nuts - hearing voices, running around naked (as Prince Rhaegel did) wouldn't remain in charge for long.

The best way to explain Aerys' overreaction during the Brandon thing is the following:

1. Aerys is getting more and more suspicious of Rhaegar in the wake of Tywin's remark during Duskendale.

2. The Harrenhal plans cause him to deepen those suspicions. He thinks his son intends to depose or kill him with the help of the lords. He decides to attend Harrenhal to keep a close eye on everyone there.

3. The coronation of Lyanna by Rhaegar is seen as 'proof' by Aerys and his people that Rhaegar is conspiring with 'the Starks' (either with Lord Rickard directly or through his sons). The fact that Robert Baratheon and at least Brandon and Eddard Stark are not happy about the coronation thing is either overlooked completely by Aerys or interpreted as a charade by the Starks and Robert to distract Aerys or lull him into a false sense of security. But the king is having none of that. He *knows now* not that Rhaegar and the Starks are plotting against.

4. When the news about the abduction reach court Aerys interprets this as starting sign for a major rebellion against him, led by Rhaegar and the Starks. They make it appear as if Lyanna has been abducted to deceive the king, but actually there is a secret marriage pact between Rhaegar and the Starks, promising Lyanna's hand to Rhaegar in exchange for the help of the Starks and their allies in the fight against the king. This interpretation would even make more sense in Aerys' eyes if Rhaegar and Lyanna did indeed publicly marry before they disappear (perhaps at Maidenpool).

5. When Brandon shows up at KL, demanding to fight Rhaegar in a duel or trial-by-combat Aerys doesn't believe the entire scenario. He thinks Brandon is only claiming shit like that to continue to distract him while Rickard and Rhaegar summon their troops. He takes Brandon and his companions prisoner in an attempt to crush a rebellion he thinks is already taking place. Rickard and the others who answer the summons of the king don't really understand what's going on.

6. Brandon, his companions, Rickard, the other fathers are subsequently accused of treason and rebellion. Aerys may originally have not wanted to execute them all. He could have intended to make them confess their treason so that he has proof of Rhaegar's treason and can subsequently execute him. When Rickard and Brandon and their companions refuse to confess - considering the entire scenario utter madness (after all, Brandon is there to defend the honor of House Stark against Rhaegar Targaryen) - Aerys loses patience and has them all executed the way we know he did. Ethan Glover is the only one spared because he may have broken (under torture?), confirming the accusations against Brandon, Rickard, and his companions.

The best hint in that direction is that Lord Rickard Stark himself is apparently accused of an unknown crime. That is why he, Rickard, demands a trial-by-combat for himself. He is not acting as Brandon's champion or anything. Rickard himself is accused of a crime.

7. Once Rickard, Brandon, and their companions are dead the rebellion is still not crushed. Aerys has to ensure that Eddard and Robert don't come to Rhaegar's help and so he commands their executions, too. That is about as rational and sensible as Rhaenyra's decision to command the arrest/execution of Addam Velaryon and Nettles. It makes some sense within the framework of an ongoing rebellion or the threat of an ongoing rebellion. If you fear for your life and crown it is better to kill potential enemies rather than to ensure you kill only people whose guilt is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

In that scenario Aerys is still insane in the sense that he is overly paranoid, but he is about as calculating and rational within his paranoid mindset as he appears to be when he blames the Dornish for Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident.

The reconciliation with Rhaegar comes later when he indeed realizes that the Starks had been innocent and Robert was trying to kill Rhaegar as much as he was trying to kill Aerys. That's when Robert began to look like a new Daemon Blackfyre and not a minor nuisance compared to the true danger, Rhaegar himself.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I think the degree of knowledge regarding Aerys's and Rhaegar's relationship at the time of the rebellion would be pretty low. There wasn't much information going in or out. What we do know is that Brandon and co. thought that Rhaegar took Lyanna to King's Landing, no? And then didn't dare show his face.

Chances are that Brandon wasn't making an informed decision there. But in general it seems very unlikely that the rebels had any way of gathering information as to where Lyanna was. However, the absence of Rhaegar himself would have been eventually noticed and would be seen as very odd. After all, Rhaegar was one of the main guilty parties here, and the one who should have helped his royal father to crush this rebellion from the start - especially if he wanted to keep Lyanna. So why wasn't he at Aerys' side?

And the best explanation there is that Aerys was as much after Rhaegar at the point he was killing Rickard and Brandon - and trying to kill Ned and Robert - as he was trying to crush this rebellion. If Rhaegar and Aerys had acted in concert and the beginning of the Rebellion there wouldn't have been a rebellion.

We also don't know what exactly Aerys' command to Jon Arryn was. Just 'Kill Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark, your king commands it' or was he giving an explanation as to why he was demanding this. Like something along the lines 'Kill those two people because they are conspiring against me with my son and (former?) heir'?

The trials of the two Starks and their companions also took place publicly

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I think Ned learned about Lyanna's whereabouts from someone in the Tyrell host besieging Storm's End when he went there to make them bend the knee. Alternatively, Varys, if Ned questioned him as to where his sister was. I don't see why Ethan Glover would have known anything.

Varys is a pretty good potential source for the whereabouts of Lyanna in any case. He could also have been the one providing Hightower with the information leading him to Rhaegar in the first place. But since Rhaegar himself returned from the tower to court before he died the information about Lyanna's whereabouts would have been at court with some people. Rhaegar could have talked with Varys, Pycelle, Jaime, and many other courtiers. All Ned needed to do was to find one of those people before he left KL for Storm's End.

The idea that Rhaegar would have talked to Ethan Glover of all people makes pretty much no sense. Nor does it sound convincing that Ethan would have gone with or trusted by Ned if he had spent the entire war in a cell. If that hadn't been a comfortable tower cell he would be in pretty bad shape. It makes much more sense that there is a pretty good reason as to why Aerys spared Ethan's life, causing him to leave KL before the official outbreak of the Rebellion after which he then hooked up and became close to Ned during the war.

We should assume that Ned's six companions at the tower weren't just some people. They must have been men Ned trusted very much. It is not very likely that he didn't know or suspect already what to expect at the tower when he went there.

48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And that's yet another problem - why did Brandon think that in the first place, and why didn't he seem to bother to check if Rhaegar was there at all?

He checked that, did he not? In a loud and improper way but he did check.

48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

However, there is no hint in the text that Ned and Varys ever talked about this, nor is it a certain thing that Varys knew.

There is also no hint that Rhaegar and Ethan ever talked with each other or that Ned and Ethan talked about the tower.

48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I proposed Ethan as specifically tasked by Rhaegar himself; he wouldn't know a thing otherwise.

That doesn't make any sense. Rhaegar has no reason to take such a person into his confidence. He would trust a man he can trust, not some Northern dude.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Would it be possible that he and Ned became acquainted when Ethan was squiring for Brandon? IIRC, Ned did return home from the Vale from time to time.

That is possible. After all, Ned's days as Jon Arryn's ward were long over. Still, we don't know how old Ethan was or how long he had been Brandon's squire. It is not unlikely that Ethan spent most of his days at Winterfell while Ned wasn't there - either because he was still Jon's ward or because he was visiting him with Robert.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

However, I meant to propose that Ethan was released before the Trident, as Rhaegar's contingency plan should he fall, because that would leave Lyanna in a very vulnerable position. It would then explain how Ned learned about Lyanna's whereabouts and that her condition had better be kept secret. - There are, of course, other options, as well, I just thought this one might tie some loose ends together. What's your theory on how Ned learned?

If Rhaegar had a contingency plan he would have caused such a man to inform Lyanna and the men at the tower of what had transpired. He would not reach out to Ned. I mean, the fact that Ned and the knights end up killing each other indicates that Rhaegar had no contingency plan involving a reconciliation between the Starks and the Targaryens. Else Ethan Glover surely would have been able to make the knights understand that Ned and he were there because of something Rhaegar had arranged.

And that would have not only given those men pause it most likely would also have avoided bloodshed.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

It's an interesting idea. I'll have to think about it, but it feels weird. For one thing, doesn't at all explain why Ethan Glover was kept alive -- Rhaegar didn't show up in KL until near the end of the war. Just a coincidence then?

I don't know, either - we have indeed speculated here that, being a squire, he may have been younger than the others and therefore "mercifully" kept alive in the Black Cells; or perhaps lord Glover didn't arrive in KL prior the Rebellion broke out and Aerys was waiting to get hold of him later to execute both father and son like he did with the rest. Either way, there is some piece of information missing - if Ethan was released, then why did he get that extra treatment? And if he had been kept prisoner throughout the whole rebellion, then why did Ned drag him along for the trip? It's not like one man in a poor shape after a year's imprisonment could make a difference in his small entourage.

[wolfmaid7]

15 hours ago, Ran said:

But Lyanna is held by Rhaegar, who last I checked is a Targaryen. It’s really weird to argue that she wasn’t already a hostage, when one thinks about it just a bit. More importantly, the belief she had been seized by the Targaryens was why Robert was fighting...

Yeah, I’m not seeing what Aerys was supposed to do differently. Wasn’t it already a given that he was crazy and perfectly capable of killing Lyanna? Are you not making the rather large assumption that the rebels somehow knew that Lyanna’s fate was not already in Aerys’s hands? I think you are.

I don't know about that premise Ran.According to Ned and he would know ,when speaking of his and Robert's action there were two goals.

1. Set out to win a crown.

2. Rise against the Targs to stop the murder of babes.

You would think that Lyanna's brother would remember and mention that he and Robert's whole reason for fighting was because Lyanna was taken by Targs.However,its the opposite,Ned nor Robert spoke of fighting to get Lyanna back from being a hostage.

 

 

 

 

[Ran]

And yet per GRRM, Robert didn't make a formal claim to the crown until somewhere around the Trident, and Robert himself speaks that during the rebellion he prayed for Lyanna to be restored to him, not for a crown:

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The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown . . . it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe . . . and mine again, as she was meant to be.

[LynnS]

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II "You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."  "Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …" I have the impression that Robert is fishing for information in the above passage. To see if he would get the same story from Ned that he heard 15 years ago. Tell me what you remember, fill in the blanks, what was her name again?  An approach a journalist or police officer might use to test Ned on the original story.  Ned bristles and shuts down the conversation as quickly as possible.  Ned wants Robert off the trail, to think that Jon is a nobody as fast as possible.  I'm not sure that Robert even believes him when he says that it would take some rare women for Ned Stark to lose his honor.  But he lets it go because he won't get anymore information out of Ned. I'm a little suspicious that Robert wasn't totally ignorant about Jon Arryn's investigation. We are told that both the King and Lysa were in the room when Jon spoke his last words. A Game of Thrones - Eddard V "Was there nothing else? No final words?" "When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again." A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be." I have to wonder what Robert would have made of it.   Pycelle thinks the words were a blessing for his son.  Then Robert immediately hightails it to Winterfell.   It's interesting that both Pycelle and Lysa think that Jon Arryn is only talking about one son. A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX "Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is." "I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. Robert forgets the women he beds by evenfall.  But Ned's curse is that Robert never forgets Lyanna.   While Robert might forget the women; I'm not sure he forgets the bastards.  He wanted to bring the twins to court; Edric Storm is fostered with his brother; Gendry is hidden but provided for and Mya Stone is essentially a member of House Arryn. Who asked Jon Arryn to look for his bastards in the first place and is this why Cersei's subterfuge was uncovered?  Accidently?  I question where Ned finds Lyanna.  Was it in the dungeons of Kingslanding? A Game of Thrones - Eddard I Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. "She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …" "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean." A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy. This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized. Was Lyanna poisoned by the rose in her hand? A Game of Thrones - Eddard I "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean." "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Storm of Swords - Tyrion X "We are fond of spears in Dorne. Besides, it is the only way to counter his reach. Have a look, Lord Imp, but see you do not touch." The spear was turned ash eight feet long, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of that was steel: a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike. The edges looked sharp enough to shave with. When Oberyn spun the haft between the palms of his hand, they glistened black. Oil? Or poison? Tyrion decided that he would sooner not know. "I hope you are good with that," he said doubtfully.

[Bael's Bastard]

@Ran @Ygrain

There is still so much we don't know about the nature of the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar, particularly from the lead up to Harrenhal until he left for the Trident. We are led to believe that at times Aerys was distrustful of Rhaegar and his intentions toward himself, while at other times he seems to have depended on and put his trust in Rhaegar. I have suspected that Aerys, being crazy, might have just gone back and forth between suspecting and trusting Rhaegar between Harrenhal and the Trident, unless their relationship was not as up and down as the possibly-distorted or misremembered accounts we have might lead us to believe.

I agree that if Aerys was in any way responsible for or in the know about Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, and Rhaegar was just keeping Lyanna (and himself?) where Aerys wanted her (them?), then absolutely, he wouldn't have had reason to take possession of Lyanna.

But if there was as much distrust as we are led to believe, then Aerys might not have considered Rhaegar's possession of Lyanna as necessarily being the same as himself or House Targaryen being in possession of Lyanna, even if Rhaegar was still essentially keeping Lyanna out of rebel hands. If Aerys was not in any way involved with the abduction he could have taken offense to Rhaegar's actions re: Lyanna. In a case where Rhaegar was not acting on Aerys's orders or with his knowledge, and he was as in the dark as the rebels about Rhaegar's intentions, I just don't see how a person as vindictive as Aerys, however crazy he may have been, would know where Lyanna was but not want to take possession of/kill her.

[Faera]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Was Lyanna poisoned by the rose in her hand?

 

I don't see any reason how or why, personally. On my second re-read of AGoT, after I had finished the whole series, I always suspected that the rose petals in her hands were all that was left of the blue-rose crown Rhaegar had given her at the Tourney at Harrenhal. I know that is the somewhat more obvious conclusion but I sincerely doubt there is anything nefarious in Lyanna's death.

Having re-read that passage you quoted from Eddard I, AGoT, I always felt Lyanna had died from a postpartum infection following anywhere from a day to as much as a week or so after Jon's birth. 

Ned remembers the room smelling two things: roses and blood. Blood might be an indicator that she has just given birth, especially given he recalls her being in a bed of blood in his fever dream. However, given the context, it might not have been extreme as that in real life. So, a postpartum haemorrhage shortly after Jon was born is possible the blood could also be something as simple as lochia, which can be very heavy at first. Together with Ned thinking she was weakened by fever, I always thought me that is what she ultimately died of.

The smell of roses was always interesting to me. The most obvious explanation is that she had fresh flowers, roses etc., in her room. However, another thing I remember thinking when I was re-reading is that it could be medicinal? Like rose hips? I need to look into that more but it was always at the back of my mind.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I question where Ned finds Lyanna.  Was it in the dungeons of Kingslanding?

I very much doubt it. We have no reason to believe she was anywhere other than the Tower of Joy. He certainly didn't find her in King's Landing of all places because I cannot fathom how he would have got her body out with anyone noticing. 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Who asked Jon Arryn to look for his bastards in the first place

I don't think anyone need have asked him to look into it, I think he came up with it on his own. However, I would like to know... why now? As in, he was living in King's Landing for fifteen years as Robert's Hand yet had only recently started looking into the bastards. Was it simply because he had stumbled upon several of the bastards other than Mya and realised there was a trend or was he initially looking for something else.

Never thought about the idea that Robert might have been suspicious about Jon. Thank goodness the Stark seed was strong in this case and Jon came out looking like a little Ned rather than a little Rhaegar. Though, in a way, I guess there is something "attractive" about Robert not completely buying Ned's story because, if you think about it, he must have known Ned better than most.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

I don't see any reason how or why, personally. On my second re-read of AGoT, after I had finished the whole series, I always suspected that the rose petals in her hands were all that was left of the blue-rose crown Rhaegar had given her at the Tourney at Harrenhal. I know that is the somewhat more obvious conclusion but I sincerely doubt there is anything nefarious in Lyanna's death.

Having re-read that passage you quoted from Eddard I, AGoT, I always felt Lyanna had died from a postpartum infection following anywhere from a day to as much as a week or so after Jon's birth. 

Ned remembers the room smelling two things: roses and blood. Blood might be an indicator that she has just given birth, especially given he recalls her being in a bed of blood in his fever dream. However, given the context, it might not have been extreme as that in real life. So, a postpartum haemorrhage shortly after Jon was born is possible the blood could also be something as simple as lochia, which can be very heavy at first. Together with Ned thinking she was weakened by fever, I always thought me that is what she ultimately died of.

The smell of roses was always interesting to me. The most obvious explanation is that she had fresh flowers, roses etc., in her room. However, another thing I remember thinking when I was re-reading is that it could be medicinal? Like rose hips? I need to look into that more but it was always at the back of my mind.

I very much doubt it. We have no reason to believe she was anywhere other than the Tower of Joy. He certainly didn't find her in King's Landing of all places because I cannot fathom how he would have got her body out with anyone noticing. 

I don't think anyone need have asked him to look into it, I think he came up with it on his own. However, I would like to know... why now? As in, he was living in King's Landing for fifteen years as Robert's Hand yet had only recently started looking into the bastards. Was it simply because he had stumbled upon several of the bastards other than Mya and realised there was a trend or was he initially looking for something else.

Never thought about the idea that Robert might have been suspicious about Jon. Thank goodness the Stark seed was strong in this case and Jon came out looking like a little Ned rather than a little Rhaegar. Though, in a way, I guess there is something "attractive" about Robert not completely buying Ned's story because, if you think about it, he must have known Ned better than most.

I don't think Ned found her at the ToJ and I thinks it's a stretch to think that she was hanging onto the Queen of Beauty's laurel.  It's an assumption that Lyanna died as a a result of childbirth and yet we have these passages that suggest she may have died of poison and Robert's allusion to the darkness, poison in the darkness and the sweet smell of death.

It's also possible that Catelyn knows something about Lyanna's death;  after all these years, her throat still constricts (a symptom of poisoning):
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"If you say so. You and he were to wed."

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

I don't think anyone need have asked him to look into it, I think he came up with it on his own. However, I would like to know... why now? As in, he was living in King's Landing for fifteen years as Robert's Hand yet had only recently started looking into the bastards. Was it simply because he had stumbled upon several of the bastards other than Mya and realised there was a trend or was he initially looking for something else.

Stannis went to Jon Arryn with his suspicions because he didn't think Robert would believe him. But I don't remember that we are ever given why he started suspecting. 

24 minutes ago, Faera said:

Never thought about the idea that Robert might have been suspicious about Jon. Thank goodness the Stark seed was strong in this case and Jon came out looking like a little Ned rather than a little Rhaegar.

This might be the whole reason for the Ashara story that Catelyn and Cersei heard, in case the baby turned up with purple eyes and some variance of blond hair.

[Bael's Bastard]

I tend to lean toward the idea that Robert suspected or knew there was more to Rhaegar/Lyanna than what seems to have been the official story during his reign. Why would Robert think that Rhaegar "has Lyanna now" a decade and a half after their deaths, or at any point after their deaths? Just because they were both dead? Lots of people died during that stretch of time. If Robert really wanted to have Lyanna, and really thought that all it would take to "have her" would be to be dead like Rhaegar, he presumably would have instigated his own death many years earlier.