The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Hm maybe Yoda setting fire to the tree is a metaphor for Johnson setting fire to fan expectations and theories / Star Wars tropes.

I don’t know I just fucking loved that scene.

[Corvinus85]

I watched it again today and I did improve my opinion of it, but I still don't agree with the slow space chase or the casino stuff.

Also, this time I caught something - when Kylo and Rey talk the first time, he says something all the lines, that you are not really here, you would die if you tried. And then we see that with Luke, at the end. So there was a nice foreshadowing with what Luke did.

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

Yup, along with the Story Group taking over The Old Republic's narrative direction, this is regarded as a step towards bringing the entire Old Republic story arc into canon, including KotOR I and II.

They haven't fully pulled the trigger on that yet though. Right now, officially, KotOR I and II are Legends and thus non-canon, and The Old Republic's status is ambiguous.

I think there's a pretty good chance that the Old Republic will be explored in an upcoming project, whether that be the new trilogy or TV series. It wouldn't surprise me if the majority of the characters were new rather than brought back from Legends, however.

[The Bard of Banefort]

26 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I hope phasma is a big villain in 9

There's a part of me that wonders if Phasma coming back to torment Finn is some sort of ongoing joke, and that they'll find away for her to show up again in Episode IX. 

[polishgenius]

14 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

- when Kylo and Rey talk the first time, he says something all the lines, that you are not really here, you would die if you tried.

Iirc he said 'you're not the one doing this, you'd die if you tried', which was foreshadowing that it was Snoke who bridged them.

[Kalbear]

That was one thing I was bummed about - Phasma. I really was hoping for more from her because she's fucking awesome, and I love Christie, and she had almost nothing.

But I hold out hope that she survived too.

[polishgenius]

41 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Finn still had options, he was making the choice to sacrifice his life as the way to help his friends and that's...a questionable message. At the very least I don't like the idea of a SW movie showing two separate good guys essentially winning a victory with suicide bombings.

I'm not sad or mad that Finn's attempted sacrifice ended like it did and with the message it did, but I don't think you can equate a sacrifice move like that with a suicide bombing. There's a whole world of difference between giving up your life in the moment because you think it's the only way for your friends/side to win or survive, and giving up your life in a deliberate plan to kill as many, usually civilian, people as possible. And, I mean, Rose couldn't possibly know about the back exit to the cave when she did it, and if it hadn't been found she'd essentially have cost them the galaxy and they'd have all died.

[Darth Richard II]

The new trilogy is not going to be old republic, they confirmed that.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

The new trilogy is not going to be old republic, they confirmed that.

So here's my suspicion on how things are going to go.

IX is going to resolve Rey and Ren, it's going to establish a new Jedi Order, but it's not going to beat the First Order. They'll be put on their heels some, but not entirely, and the revolution will continue.

The next trilogy will be dealing with that New Jedi Order that has been set up, probably shortly after the events of IX. The First Order will be weaker, but still around, there won't be a Republic yet, and there will be a lot of fractional systems vying for control. In that, they're going to be building a new galaxy system, and the Jedi aren't going to just be fighting bad guys. They're going to be diplomats, they're going to be ally-makers, they're going to make fighting for saving things they love their priority. There might be external threats, new ones, but my suspicion is that Rian Johnson likes mining the internal dilemmas far more, and he likes establishing relationships with heroes and villains that are complex and nuanced but still clearly good/bad side. He wants you to sympathize and enjoy the villain but he doesn't want you to want them to win. 

Rian Johnson directed one of the best Breaking Bad eps to date - Ozymandias (spoilers for that, obviously), and that's a great example of having massive sympathy for  the villain while also being able to illustrate precisely how horrible that villain is. That's what he likes, and that's what we'll get more of.

[Corvinus85]

29 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Iirc he said 'you're not the one doing this, you'd die if you tried', which was foreshadowing that it was Snoke who bridged them.

Yeah, but I think it was also foreshadowing for Luke (the dying part).

[SerHaHa]

Regarding Yoda and the ever changing and confusing Jedi "rules".  In one film, Yoda goes on about not having attachments, and when a Jedi loses someone close "miss them do not".  Yet the second line he says to look is that "miss you I have, young Skywalker".  Ok, so do you miss people, or don't you?  This is just one example where the writing and the "rules" are extremely contradictory, even hypocritical. 

 

The film is doing some big $, I think we can expect all the new SW films to do pretty well, which at the very least means we'll all continue to see more content, the bad with the good.  I hope once Rebels is over they come out with either a new animated show, of a more adult nature, OR that the new planned live action TV show ends up being something great.  I've really enjoyed Rebels, far more than the Clone Wars, although I did like that as well.

Quote

Rian Johnson directed one of the best Breaking Bad eps to date - Ozymandias (spoilers for that, obviously), and that's a great example of having massive sympathy for  the villain while also being able to illustrate precisely how horrible that villain is. That's what he likes, and that's what we'll get more of.

Well said, even the preview for the Ozymandias, with Walter reciting the poem by Shelley, made the hair on my neck stand up.  Rian Johnson famously said that this episode, in fact all of BB, was a catharsis.  I wonder if he feels at all similarly regarding SW.  It's pretty important IMO, as he has the reigns for 3 of the next trilogy SW films...

 

Regarding Ezra Bridger's age, I stand corrected, further investigation in a Reddit thread on the subject proves that he is 1 day older than Luke, and would have been 19 at the Battle of Yavin, same as Luke, not 14 as another source I read claimed.  Still, I'd have preferred they put HIM in the film instead of "DJ", or perhaps even Rose, although the actress did a good job I felt with what she had to work with.  Doesn't bode well for Ezra surviving Rebels, although it being a kids show first and foremost, killing the teenage child hero off will be something surprising from Disney, at least for me, in a good way, should they choose to do it.

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Okay I just did a big anti-Disney rant. FYI, I am still terribly conflicted. And I loved the film and still think SW has found its Sopochik! BUT....

 

I would accepted the Luke story IF he had been given a chance to redeem himself in Ep.9 and *then* die. They did not give him the same chance that Lucas gave Vader. Mark Hamill is not stupid, I'm sure he was expecting Luke to die at some point  if they brought him back. I mean, a new generation has to come forward for the franchise to continue right?  I knew he had to die at the end of the trilogy and I had long prepared for that. But not as a cynical coward. Not forcibly yanked from the franchise a film before his time, just for sake of "subversion" (or more likely a big FU to Lucas.) and nothing else.   The fact that he was too scared to do anything other than give an illusion of himself fighting instead of going himself....they could have pulled a Jon Snow and had him collapse and had us thinking he was dead and shown him clawing back onto the rock at the beg. of Ep 9. Just a sequence of Luke walking into a room and everyone pays him silent respect? Disney is pulling a Dave and Dan/Olly. "we're here to rip EVERYTHING Lucas to shreds. Even the things that deserve to be left alone." You can tell that Rian did not agree either. He did the best he could with the ending and it was beautiful and poetic, but I'd rather Luke been given one memorable line, one piece of wisdom, a la Ben or yoda...the "Hope is like the sun..." that should have been HIS line. 

But the fact that Disney is cynically using him to drive publicity for the movie, that they know the image of "Luke Skywalker" as George Lucas created him, in people's minds is what drives them to the theater Thurs and Fri night and they want to see the return of this character after 34 years...they know it and we know it. I would have accepted his entire story *IF* it was part of a 2-film redemption arc a la Vader and then killed him off. And they know in this film they're destroying that and they make him go out and run with the opposit to put bodies in seats is extremely cynical. 

How, now, is he going to explain to fans at conventions, these people who bring their little children, who sit and listen to him  talk for hours with smiles on their faces and with shining eyes? Heroes are extremely rare and its obvious that Mark has enjoyed being one fictionally,b/c he knows it makes people happy. But now...

How does he explain, for example, that line  that Luke  came to the island to die? What drove him to that level of despair that Obi-Wan and Yoda never had in their times of failure and exile? What happened to his faith in the power of love and redemption, why did he become someone who seeks to pre-emptively stamp out those he sees as evil instead of the most evil being having the potential to for redemption? What caused him to give up his family entirely and sink to that lvel of...yes, self-pity?  Maybe Lucas was right, having attachments was damaging in its potential to cause a level of damage in a Jedi who thought he failed or did fail....whereas a child taken as a baby and trained with strangers would never attain that level of damage. 

 

OK I'm still rambling. Ugh:). But if it's true that Disney made a decision to kill Luke off a film early b/c he didn't like the script Kennedy shoved down Rian;s throat (and which Mark had no opportunity to contribute whatsoever), all the while planning to trot Mark around for the junkets keeping the illusion of Luke The hero alive...it leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Go and watch footage of Mark at conventions the past 40 yrs. He has not changed one iota. He loves Luke,  he loves the fans b/c they respond to his love,  and then back. Yes, Luke has his conflicts in the OT but that is not what we remember 40 yrs later. We remember the young man who in spite of all his suffering and all his loss, never gave up in the power of faith and love and hope in the face of darkest evil. Watch the close-upshots in the Throne Room scene in ROTJ. Where palpatine is firing the Force lightening at Luke and he screams and writhes in pain. The person filming the end of this, slowly walking with the hand-held camera closer and closer, until we are standing inches away from Mark Hamill twitching on the floor, was Lucas himself. This was a powerful scene to start with but finding this out years later made it doubly powerful for me.

You can see this was the core of his story, how much this meant to him...

 

OK. I'm rambling, I still can't explain what I feel. But Dammit I am frustrated. I repeat that Rian is a fantastic director and I have high hopes for him with the franchise BUT this Disney script just is killing me! 

 

I don't know, maybe people will say "we love Luke anyway" and Mark will get over it. He's very bitter right now, I've seen some interviews. you can see how he's invested in the character. I mean he hated the script but he gave such a great performance anyway, you can tell how much he cares.  I've heard there's even  Oscar buzz. We'll see. 

I'd better get off here before I scare people....

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

OK....no more rambling. Rian directed Ozymandias?! Didn't know that. Dammit this is frustrating. I stand by my comments that SW may have found its Sapochnik. There were so many visually poetic elements...the cinematography was stunning...you can tell how much the director loves SW and has invested in it. BUT he;s just a cog in the machine that has to follow the Disney script/vision/Kennedy.

and yes I've seen it twice and there's a lot we haven't had explained....there may surprises here. But as of now I'm frustrated. Someone wrote a while back in this thread that "There is this deep, deep desire in RJ and the writers to not throw fans a bone." WHY NOT? 

 

This is exactly how I feel about GOT seasons 5-8.)

[Iskaral Pust]

Why are people so upset about Luke’s arc?  Luke was my hero of the OT but I think it’s completely feasible/acceptable within his character arc that despite saving Vader he never really achieved the maturity to be an effective leader (Leia was the only natural leader) or mentor to young force users, and that his experience left him an exaggerated fear of the dark side and loss that impaired his judgment.  He received mentorship from Yoda for only a limited period between ESB and RotJ, unless his spirit guides continued to visit him, which the movies did not show — he seemed surprised to see Yoda in TLJ). 

He could win the battle with Vader (with the advantage of Vader’s own internal conflict) without reaching the emotional maturity and wisdom needed to lead new Jedi.  His legend exceeded his actual ability to lead, and learning to fight with the force and face Vader did not prepare him to be a Jedi master/mentor or be depended upon. 

It would have been fan service to have him save the day again, especially when the theme now is to bury the past and move beyond it.  The story has abandoned the monarchist roots of titles (princess), prophecy, and inherited greatness and moved to a modernist base of anyone could be a Jedi and you can make the world you want.  Luke and the Skywalker dynasty has to be reduced. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

This is the article I found where Rian Johnson talked briefly about the Old Republic: https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2017/12/rian-johnson-confirms-his-trilogy-will-not-be-an-old-republic-story.html

The way I interpreted what he said is that they definitely won't be adapting legends material onto the big screen. That doesn't rule out having a brand new story set in the same era, though. The sequel trilogy takes place around the same time as many of the old EU books but with different characters than legends, so I think we could still get an Old Republic movie, just with different characters and and an original plot. 

[Fiddler]

23 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Why are people so upset about Luke’s arc?  Luke was my hero of the OT but I think it’s completely feasible/acceptable within his character arc that despite saving Vader he never really achieved the maturity to be an effective leader (Leia was the only natural leader) or mentor to young force users, and that his experience left him an exaggerated fear of the dark side and loss that impaired his judgment.  He received mentorship from Yoda for only a limited period between ESB and RotJ, unless his spirit guides continued to visit him, which the movies did not show — he seemed surprised to see Yoda in TLJ). 

He could win the battle with Vader (with the advantage of Vader’s own internal conflict) without reaching the emotional maturity and wisdom needed to lead new Jedi.  His legend exceeded his actual ability to lead, and learning to fight with the force and face Vader did not prepare him to be a Jedi master/mentor or be depended upon. 

It would have been fan service to have him save the day again, especially when the theme now is to bury the past and move beyond it.  The story has abandoned the monarchist roots of titles (princess), prophecy, and inherited greatness and moved to a modernist base of anyone could be a Jedi and you can make the world you want.  Luke and the Skywalker dynasty has to be reduced. 

Agreed.

He was trained as a weapon to defeat Vader, not as a jedi.  Most of what he learned he did on his own.

[sperry]

My two biggest gripes with the movie:

 

1) It hasn't been brought up by others, so I guess I'm the only one that was bothered by this, but how the hell is he supposed to be a hero moving forward? He directly defied his commanding officers twice in a row, started a mutiny, and basically cost the lives of 99% of the remaining rebels because of his incompetence. And the response from those two commanding officers was basically, "oh that rascal Poe, he's a real joker that one." I get the point about the failed plots sort of turning our expectations on our heads, but Poe literally committed treason that got a shitload of people blown up and almost had the rebellion snuffed out. There was a better way to get the point across that the Admiral knew her shit and that we weren't going to get another long odds infiltration to work.

 

2) Ren just doesn't work as the main villain. He's an angsty, incompetent teenager. He's not believable as the leader of the new order, because he's both an idiot and and not particularly skilled. He fails at everything he does, and he's too young for us to assume he's got a bunch of past successes that his reputation banks on. They needed to set him up either as a better tactician or a better warrior. Instead, we're kind of wondering why this moody padawan is in charge of the remnants of the galactic empire.

[Spring Bass]

I think Daisy Ridley has said that Star Wars IX is the last one she's in. That could obviously change if they offer her a dump truck full of money, but I got the impression that the existing cast is basically done as part of the "main" movies after Star Wars IX (although maybe they could have their own spin-off movies, like the Han Solo film coming up and Rogue One).

11 minutes ago, sperry said:

He directly defied his commanding officers twice in a row, started a mutiny, and basically cost the lives of 99% of the remaining rebels because of his incompetence.

Poe didn't get most of the rebels killed - Finn and Rose did, by deciding to continue the plan with a shady hacker they'd never heard about before ending up in a jail cell with him (rather than Maz's contact). All he did personally was delay the evacuation, but it still got off successfully in secret before DJ betrayed Finn and Rose.

And in any case, nobody knows that Poe's plan was the reason for most of the rebels getting killed except Finn and Rose.

11 minutes ago, sperry said:

2) Ren just doesn't work as the main villain. He's an angsty, incompetent teenager. He's not believable as the leader of the new order, because he's both an idiot and and not particularly skilled. He fails at everything he does, and he's too young for us to assume he's got a bunch of past successes that his reputation banks on. They needed to set him up either as a better tactician or a better warrior. Instead, we're kind of wondering why this moody padawan is in charge of the remnants of the galactic empire.

Ren being somewhat incompetent, pathetic, and utterly lacking in menace is kind of the point. Nobody in the film respects him - not Snoke, not Hux (Hux doesn't even really defer to him after he finds out that Ren killed Snoke and force-chokes him personally), etc. He's only in charge because he can threaten anyone who might challenge him.

It also explains why people with a personal connection to him (such as Han and Rey) keep thinking that maybe there is still some good there, something that can be saved. But there isn't.

[sperry]

9 minutes ago, Fall Bass said:

I think Daisy Ridley has said that Star Wars IX is the last one she's in. That could obviously change if they offer her a dump truck full of money, but I got the impression that the existing cast is basically done as part of the "main" movies after Star Wars IX (although maybe they could have their own spin-off movies, like the Han Solo film coming up and Rogue One).

Poe didn't get most of the rebels killed - Finn and Rose did, by deciding to continue the plan with a shady hacker they'd never heard about before ending up in a jail cell with him (rather than Maz's contact). All he did personally was delay the evacuation, but it still got off successfully in secret before DJ betrayed Finn and Rose.

And in any case, nobody knows that Poe's plan was the reason for most of the rebels getting killed except Finn and Rose.

Ren being somewhat incompetent, pathetic, and utterly lacking in menace is kind of the point. Nobody in the film respects him - not Snoke, not Hux (Hux doesn't even really defer to him after he finds out that Ren killed Snoke and force-chokes him personally), etc. He's only in charge because he can threaten anyone who might challenge him.

 

It was 100% his shit plan that got the others killed. But for him defying the orders of his commanding officer, those people would have been alive, save the admiral herself.

 

Can't agree with those things about Ren, either. He worked as a puppet on Snoke's string. He doesn't work as the de facto leader of the New Order.

[Spring Bass]

9 minutes ago, sperry said:

It was 100% his shit plan that got the others killed. But for him defying the orders of his commanding officer, those people would have been alive, save the admiral herself.

Poe's plan was to use Maz's contact, presumably someone they could trust. That plan fell apart, but then Finn and Rose made the choice to try and continue it with DJ, who betrayed them and the rebels. If they escape and instead just come back to the fleet in failure instead (or hell, just spend another day cooling their heels in jail), the rebels mostly make it to safety in the transports under stealth.

Yes, if they didn't do the plan in the first place, none of that would have happened. But what got most of the rebels killed was that Finn and Rose deviated from the plan once the original version of it became untenable.