The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers

[Rubicante]

4 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

When it comes to Rey and Snoke, sure, I'll take on some of that disappointment as a fan. I chose to immerse myself in the fan theories and videos. No clear promises were ever made about Snoke, so his abrupt death w/out any fucking explanation of his origin is a bit on the fans. However, Lucas giving fans an entire trilogy of films on the origins of the Emperor, Darth Vader, and the Empire, would tend to lead fans to believe we'd get SOMETHING as to Snoke's origins in the films. Not everything should have to be read in a book or experienced in a video game. Snoke is a key character, and as such I don't think it was out of the realm of expectation to have some of his origin revealed in the films.

And we come to Luke. Where to even start? The unpasteurized blue milk? The inconsistencies in his words and actions, the inexplicable new powers, the dying from exhaustion? Yes, Luke Skywalker, last of the Jedi, died from exhaustion. *smh* Sure, Luke goes out in a way similar to Obi Wan in ANH, but for Luke it felt like such a hamfisted, clunky way for him to exit. And I don't feel like we really ever got an explanation as to WHY the Jedi are meant to end. We're just supposed to accept that they are. Um, okay. So the heroes of the franchise for the last 40 years are now just some bullshit that needs to be replaced (with what exactly is left unclear) because Hermit Luke and Emo Ren say so? *sigh* And was it just me, or did Luke say he had "three lessons" to teach Rey but only got around to two? I'm gonna have to watch it again to better process it all, so maybe I missed that third lesson--and I'm still kind of unclear  as to exactly what the first two lessons were. 

I agree with all of your points about Luke, but the problems really started with his first scene where he tosses the lightsaber behind his back and walks off.  That lightsaber was Anakin's, you know, his father and the guy who Luke helped redeem.  You would think he would ask Rey "Where did you find this?", which I should point out is still a question that has not been answered.  Instead the whole scene is played for laughs, and immediately made me feel like I was watching a Marvel movie instead of a Star Wars one.  This was also a problem with Poe's prank phone call on General Hux.  What a terrible way to start off a Star Wars film.

As for Snoke, his origin is important because it is tied to the origin of the First Order.  All I know about the First Order is that it was formed from the "Ashes of the Empire".  I don't understand why Snoke was instrumental in organizing the First Order, why anybody would follow him in the first place, how the First Order was funded, how the Republic allowed the First Order to grow, why he sought out Kylo Ren, why does Snoke want Luke killed so badly, why Snoke is so strong with the dark side of the force, etc.

[Darth Richard II]

Ok, saw it, loved it, pretty much everything Kalbear said. Don't know if it's as good as empire but is u pthere.

A few things as I scroll through posts.

I don't believe Rian had any thing shoved down his throat? I was under the impression he wrote the entire thing.

Yoda changing his mind about attachments isn't that surprising since he said that in episode 3, and there ere kind of, you know, a lot of shit that goes down after that.

Rian's trilogy isn't going to be ep 10-12, its its own thing.

[The Bard of Banefort]

41 minutes ago, sperry said:

My two biggest gripes with the movie:

 

1) It hasn't been brought up by others, so I guess I'm the only one that was bothered by this, but how the hell is he supposed to be a hero moving forward? He directly defied his commanding officers twice in a row, started a mutiny, and basically cost the lives of 99% of the remaining rebels because of his incompetence. And the response from those two commanding officers was basically, "oh that rascal Poe, he's a real joker that one." I get the point about the failed plots sort of turning our expectations on our heads, but Poe literally committed treason that got a shitload of people blown up and almost had the rebellion snuffed out. There was a better way to get the point across that the Admiral knew her shit and that we weren't going to get another long odds infiltration to work.

 

2) Ren just doesn't work as the main villain. He's an angsty, incompetent teenager. He's not believable as the leader of the new order, because he's both an idiot and and not particularly skilled. He fails at everything he does, and he's too young for us to assume he's got a bunch of past successes that his reputation banks on. They needed to set him up either as a better tactician or a better warrior. Instead, we're kind of wondering why this moody padawan is in charge of the remnants of the galactic empire.

1) I saw someone mention that Poe wasn't portrayed as a hot-headed dumbass in the last movie, and I realized they were right. In TFA, Poe was warm and down-to-Earth. It makes me think he'll have another personality in the next movie. 

2) Apparently Kylo is supposed to be almost thirty, although he still acts like a moody teenager. Even though Hux is a follower, I get the impression that he took care of running the First Order for Snoke and is now going to do that for Kylo. As long as Hux acts like everything's going smoothly, his subordinates will believe it. 

[Darth Richard II]

More random thoughs:

I love asshole Yoda. Thats the Yoda I remember from empire.

Regarding Snoke, I thought it was interesting the emperors theme played briefly when he was torturing Rey, Could be significant, could not be.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh and most of the humor didn't bother me at all, I know a lot of people seem upset by it. *shrug*

[Darth Richard II]

4 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

 

OK I'm still rambling. Ugh:). But if it's true that Disney made a decision to kill Luke off a film early b/c he didn't like the script Kennedy shoved down Rian;s throat (and which Mark had no opportunity to contribute whatsoever), all the while planning to trot Mark around for the junkets keeping the illusion of Luke The hero alive...it leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

Yeah just looked this up, don't know where you got this from, Rian Johnson pretty much wrote the entire film himself.

[Spring Bass]

50 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh and most of the humor didn't bother me at all, I know a lot of people seem upset by it. *shrug*

I thought it was great, too, especially the scene where Poe trolls Hux. Hux is such a pompous, scenery-chewing* monster that he's practically asking to be trolled like that.

* Domhnall Gleeson's got some good acting range. He plays both Hux and someone who is about as opposite to Hux as you can get in Ex Machina.

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, Fall Bass said:

I thought it was great, too, especially the scene where Poe trolls Hux. Hux is such a pompous, scenery-chewing* monster that he's practically asking to be trolled like that.

* Domhnall Gleeson's got some good acting range. He plays both Hux and someone who is about as opposite to Hux as you can get in Ex Machina.

Yeah me and my friend thought that was hilarious, but humor is one of those things that's subjective as fuck, so honestly, if the humor doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Also, my god, despite my earlier fuck you in this thread this place is so clam and rational compared to other forums right now talking about this film. Like, I learned some new racial slurs today. o.O

[Eggegg]

I hated the humour in this movie tbh, mainly due to it not being all that funny, but mainly because it seemed to be a bright red signal that the tone of the movies is miles away from the OT and seemingly attempting to capture some of the GotG magic that is popular right now. 

I mean there are moments in the movie where I had to wonder if it was Johnson writing the movie or Attack of the Clones Lucas. Why on earth did anyone think it was a good idea to include Luke milking green gunk out of a walrus man thing! How did that get left in the movie? The Porgs are the most cynical merchandising opportunity since the Ewoks, except they are worse because they are irrelevant. The casino half hour is prequel level awful and wouldn't be out of place in any of those movies. Hux is an unbelievable cartoon villain chewing scenery in a movie where nobody else was, its like he didn't get the memo. 

None of it really sat well at all. 

I think the tone of these movies is a real issue. On one hand they are clearly trying to capture the tone of the OT, but also adding a modern touch to them. But instead they just appear to be making something that is as bland and empty, but ticks all the Disney boxes necessary to make money. 

[felice]

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

And, I mean, Rose couldn't possibly know about the back exit to the cave when she did it, and if it hadn't been found she'd essentially have cost them the galaxy and they'd have all died.

And she did cost them Luke, though admittedly being dead is rather less of an impediment for him than it would have been for Finn. And what about all the other unnamed rebels who died in the attack on the battering ram? Doesn't stopping Finn make their sacrifice rather pointless?

3 hours ago, Fall Bass said:

Poe didn't get most of the rebels killed - Finn and Rose did, by deciding to continue the plan with a shady hacker they'd never heard about before ending up in a jail cell with him (rather than Maz's contact). All he did personally was delay the evacuation, but it still got off successfully in secret before DJ betrayed Finn and Rose.

How did DJ know about the evacuation in order to betray it, anyway? Was that explained in the film?

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, felice said:

And she did cost them Luke, though admittedly being dead is rather less of an impediment for him than it would have been for Finn. And what about all the other unnamed rebels who died in the attack on the battering ram? Doesn't stopping Finn make their sacrifice rather pointless?

How did DJ know about the evacuation in order to betray it, anyway? Was that explained in the film?

How does Rose cost them Luke? I understand your point about the unnamed rebels but genuinely don’t see how she cost them Luke.

I think it is mentioned that DJ handed over communication codes or something along those lines. I struggled to hear a few lines so I’m not certain exactly but they did mention something 

8 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That was one thing I was bummed about - Phasma. I really was hoping for more from her because she's fucking awesome, and I love Christie, and she had almost nothing.

But I hold out hope that she survived too.

Yeah I was disappointed by Phasma in the last film and hoped they would do something in this one to rectify that. They didn’t, and I really just hope she is gone now, much as I love Gwen

8 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

Okay I just did a big anti-Disney rant. FYI, I am still terribly conflicted. And I loved the film and still think SW has found its Sopochik! BUT....

 

I would accepted the Luke story IF he had been given a chance to redeem himself in Ep.9 and *then* die. They did not give him the same chance that Lucas gave Vader. Mark Hamill is not stupid, I'm sure he was expecting Luke to die at some point  if they brought him back. I mean, a new generation has to come forward for the franchise to continue right?  I knew he had to die at the end of the trilogy and I had long prepared for that. But not as a cynical coward. Not forcibly yanked from the franchise a film before his time, just for sake of "subversion" (or more likely a big FU to Lucas.) and nothing else.   The fact that he was too scared to do anything other than give an illusion of himself fighting instead of going himself....they could have pulled a Jon Snow and had him collapse and had us thinking he was dead and shown him clawing back onto the rock at the beg. of Ep 9. Just a sequence of Luke walking into a room and everyone pays him silent respect? Disney is pulling a Dave and Dan/Olly. "we're here to rip EVERYTHING Lucas to shreds. Even the things that deserve to be left alone." You can tell that Rian did not agree either. He did the best he could with the ending and it was beautiful and poetic, but I'd rather Luke been given one memorable line, one piece of wisdom, a la Ben or yoda...the "Hope is like the sun..." that should have been HIS line. 

But the fact that Disney is cynically using him to drive publicity for the movie, that they know the image of "Luke Skywalker" as George Lucas created him, in people's minds is what drives them to the theater Thurs and Fri night and they want to see the return of this character after 34 years...they know it and we know it. I would have accepted his entire story *IF* it was part of a 2-film redemption arc a la Vader and then killed him off. And they know in this film they're destroying that and they make him go out and run with the opposit to put bodies in seats is extremely cynical. 

How, now, is he going to explain to fans at conventions, these people who bring their little children, who sit and listen to him  talk for hours with smiles on their faces and with shining eyes? Heroes are extremely rare and its obvious that Mark has enjoyed being one fictionally,b/c he knows it makes people happy. But now...

How does he explain, for example, that line  that Luke  came to the island to die? What drove him to that level of despair that Obi-Wan and Yoda never had in their times of failure and exile? What happened to his faith in the power of love and redemption, why did he become someone who seeks to pre-emptively stamp out those he sees as evil instead of the most evil being having the potential to for redemption? What caused him to give up his family entirely and sink to that lvel of...yes, self-pity?  Maybe Lucas was right, having attachments was damaging in its potential to cause a level of damage in a Jedi who thought he failed or did fail....whereas a child taken as a baby and trained with strangers would never attain that level of damage. 

 

OK I'm still rambling. Ugh:). But if it's true that Disney made a decision to kill Luke off a film early b/c he didn't like the script Kennedy shoved down Rian;s throat (and which Mark had no opportunity to contribute whatsoever), all the while planning to trot Mark around for the junkets keeping the illusion of Luke The hero alive...it leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Go and watch footage of Mark at conventions the past 40 yrs. He has not changed one iota. He loves Luke,  he loves the fans b/c they respond to his love,  and then back. Yes, Luke has his conflicts in the OT but that is not what we remember 40 yrs later. We remember the young man who in spite of all his suffering and all his loss, never gave up in the power of faith and love and hope in the face of darkest evil. Watch the close-upshots in the Throne Room scene in ROTJ. Where palpatine is firing the Force lightening at Luke and he screams and writhes in pain. The person filming the end of this, slowly walking with the hand-held camera closer and closer, until we are standing inches away from Mark Hamill twitching on the floor, was Lucas himself. This was a powerful scene to start with but finding this out years later made it doubly powerful for me.

You can see this was the core of his story, how much this meant to him...

 

OK. I'm rambling, I still can't explain what I feel. But Dammit I am frustrated. I repeat that Rian is a fantastic director and I have high hopes for him with the franchise BUT this Disney script just is killing me! 

 

I don't know, maybe people will say "we love Luke anyway" and Mark will get over it. He's very bitter right now, I've seen some interviews. you can see how he's invested in the character. I mean he hated the script but he gave such a great performance anyway, you can tell how much he cares.  I've heard there's even  Oscar buzz. We'll see. 

I'd better get off here before I scare people....

I don’t understand your “too scared to actually fight in person” bit about Luke. Firstly there wasn’t time for him to physically get there. And second, he would have died and achieved nothing. He only survived because he wasn’t physically present. Actually showing up wouldn’t have helped at all and had nothing to do with being cowardly.

I don’t think this movie destroys him as a hero at all. You seem simultaneously pissed off that Disney is “safe” and “predictable” but also peeved that they went in an unexpected direction with Luke’s character. 

[polishgenius]

Yeah, 'too cowardly to fight in person' is a nonsense accusation considering he died and I thought the film made pretty clear that he knew he was going to.

As for 'what drove Luke to despair that Obi Wan and Yoda never fell to' - that's pretty obvious. They felt they failed because they couldn't stop Anakin falling to the dark and killing younglings, but Luke failed because he himself nearly killed a youngling. He didn't just fail he nearly betrayed all that he stood for, and in doing so made it certain that Ben fell.

[Relic]

8 hours ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

How, now, is he going to explain to fans at conventions, these people who bring their little children, who sit and listen to him  talk for hours with smiles on their faces and with shining eyes? Heroes are extremely rare and its obvious that Mark has enjoyed being one fictionally,b/c he knows it makes people happy. But now...

I sort of agree with you here. Some people are saying that this movie is subversive and doesn't deliver what we expect, but that's mostly bullshit, imho. We expected Rey to be the goody good Jedi, we expected Ren to eventually take over as the big bad Sith, and we expected the "bad guys" sort of winning this movie.

The only real subversion was with Luke, and that's because Disney doesn't think an old man is as marketable as a fresh faced young protagonist. That's the ONLY reason Luke was killed off. It wasn't to subvert, it was to move the old and less marketable aside to create a new generation of money making "heroes". I find the removal of the older heroes to be quite cynical, and borderline insidious, really. 

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

, and that's because Disney doesn't think an old man is as marketable as a fresh faced young protagonist. That's the ONLY reason Luke was killed off.

I can get people not liking his plot overall but a load of balls this is. The mentor figure dying has been a trope for time and has nothing to do with marketing- and heck, as fucking if they think that Luke is less marketable than the fresh new faces. The only difference between this and the usual version of the trope is that, given his refusal to teach Rey (and her dead-mentor-figure was in any case Han), the person he's dying to narratively free up to stand on their own feet is also the villain.

[Eggegg]

11 minutes ago, Relic said:

I sort of agree with you here. Some people are saying that this movie is subversive and doesn't deliver what we expect, but that's mostly bullshit, imho. We expected Rey to be the goody good Jedi, we expected Ren to eventually take over as the big bad Sith, and we expected the "bad guys" sort of winning this movie.

The only real subversion was with Luke, and that's because Disney doesn't think an old man is as marketable as a fresh faced young protagonist. That's the ONLY reason Luke was killed off. It wasn't to subvert, it was to move the old and less marketable aside to create a new generation of money making "heroes". I find the removal of the older heroes to be quite cynical, and borderline insidious, really. 

Yeah I've read endlessly that this movie has brilliantly subverted the story of Star Wars and is courageously throwing out many of our expectations. I didn't see any of that in this movie, at all. If anything it simply repeated many of the same tropes as the previous movies. Luke might well have been disheartened by the force and an unwilling teacher.. but so was Yoda! That plot is almost identical to ESB in so many ways. Supposedly Kylo Rens scene with Snoke is a genius subversion of the previous movies, but its basically the same scene from the OT with a slight twist on the end. 

They killed off Luke.. but killing off Jedi masters is exactly what Star Wars has been doing in almost every movie. If Luke had lived it would have been a brilliant subversion, instead he'll probably arrive in ghost form at some point looking smug in the next movie.

At what point is simply retreading the same ground and coming up with a slightly different answer subversion, or is it just playing safe. 

[Nictarion]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I can get people not liking his plot overall but a load of balls this is. The mentor figure dying has been a trope for time and has nothing to do with marketing- and heck, as fucking if they think that Luke is less marketable than the fresh new faces. The only difference between this and the usual version of the trope is that, given his refusal to teach Rey (and her dead-mentor-figure was in any case Han), the person he's dying to narratively free up to stand on their own feet is also the villain.

Including the very first Star Wars...

[Relic]

9 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I can get people not liking his plot overall but a load of balls this is. 

I'd gladly debate you but i find your approach to these discussions to be rather abrasive, so I'll just one-up your "load of balls" with "well you're just naive" and leave it at that. Cheers.  

[polishgenius]

31 minutes ago, Relic said:

I'd gladly debate you but i find your approach to these discussions to be rather abrasive, so I'll just one-up your "load of balls" with "well you're just naive" and leave it at that. Cheers.  

Ah come on dude. I'm somewhat abrasive with you because you're (at times) abrasive in these things, and I figure you can handle a robust discussion. I'll soften my tone if it bothers you (though not right now, since I'ma be out for the whole damn day).

Mind you, I don't even think that last post was that abrasive, unless you took 'load of balls' to be aimed personally at you.

[Fiddler]

One thing that really suprised me was the audiences reaction to this movie.  The theater I go to see movies is in a small city.  It's not big so you don't see a ton of people come out.  Usually, even a full crowd, laughs with the movie and such, but it's never rowdy.

This time.  Holy cow.  We cheered at the credits.  Laughed with Poe.  Applauded when Leia blew the door open and shot Poe.  Sat in stunned silence with the hyperspace destruction.  And we shook the room with our cheers when Luke brushed his shoulder.

It was a magical way to see a movie

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I saw it yesterday and I've got to say that the critics built it up into something it isn't. When they say it is one of the best Star Wars movies I think they mean it's one of the 10 best if you include the animated Clone Wars and Rogue One.