Why are the Rivermen so weak??

[Nittanian]

In early ACOK Riverrun is concerned about being attacked by the separate armies of Stafford and Tywin. Catelyn thinks Renly could force Tywin to leave Harrenhal. 

Quote

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle . . . and make no mistake, Lord Tywin is not the Kingslayer. He will not rush in heedless. He will wait patiently for Ser Stafford to march before he stirs from behind the walls of Harrenhal."

"Unless . . ." said Catelyn.

"Yes?" Ser Brynden prompted.

"Unless he must leave Harrenhal," she said, "to face some other threat."

Her uncle looked at her thoughtfully. "Lord Renly."

"King Renly." If she would ask help from the man, she would need to grant him the style he had claimed for himself.

"Perhaps." The Blackfish smiled a dangerous smile. "He'll want something, though."

"He'll want what kings always want," she said. "Homage." (ACOK Catelyn I)

Robb sends Theon to negotiate an alliance with Balon and ask for his fleet.

Quote

"Theon's fought bravely for us. I told you how he saved Bran from those wildlings in the wolfswood. If the Lannisters won't make peace, I'll have need of Lord Greyjoy's longships." (ACOK Catelyn I)

Theon comes up with his own plan to attack Casterly Rock.

Quote

Lord Balon broke the seal and unfolded the parchment. His black eyes flicked back and forth. "So the boy would give me a crown again," he said, "and all I need do is destroy his enemies." His thin lips twisted in a smile.

"By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. "Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin's host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he's been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb's army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them."

Lord Balon grunted. "Casterly Rock has never fallen."

"Until now." Theon smiled. And how sweet that will be.

His father did not return the smile. "So this is why Robb Stark sends you back to me, after so long? So you might win my consent to this plan of his?"

"It is my plan, not Robb's," Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown. (ACOK Theon I)

Robb sends Catelyn to negotiate with Renly.

Quote

Catelyn had never wanted this. She had told Robb as much, back in Riverrun. "When last I saw Renly, he was a boy no older than Bran. I do not know him. Send someone else. My place is here with my father, for whatever time he has left."

Her son had looked at her unhappily. "There is no one else. I cannot go myself. Your father's too ill. The Blackfish is my eyes and ears, I dare not lose him. Your brother I need to hold Riverrun when we march—"

"March?" No one had said a word to her of marching.

"I cannot sit at Riverrun waiting for peace. It makes me look as if I were afraid to take the field again. When there are no battles to fight, men start to think of hearth and harvest, Father told me that. Even my northmen grow restless."

My northmen, she thought. He is even starting to talk like a king. "No one has ever died of restlessness, but rashness is another matter. We've planted seeds, let them grow."

Robb shook his head stubbornly. "We've tossed some seeds in the wind, that's all. If your sister Lysa was coming to aid us, we would have heard by now. How many birds have we sent to the Eyrie, four? I want peace too, but why should the Lannisters give me anything if all I do is sit here while my army melts away around me swift as summer snow?"

"So rather than look craven, you will dance to Lord Tywin's pipes?" she threw back. "He wants you to march on Harrenhal, ask your uncle Brynden if—"

"I said nothing of Harrenhal," Robb said. (ACOK Catelyn II)

Catelyn meets with Renly at Bitterbridge.

Quote

"Tell me, when does your son mean to march against Harrenhal?"

Until she knew whether this king was friend or foe, Catelyn was not about to reveal the least part of Robb's dispositions. "I do not sit on my son's war councils, my lord." (ACOK Catelyn II)

Instead of attacking Tywin at Harrenhal, Robb heads west to deal with Stafford and leaves Edmure to hold Riverrun. The rivermen are under the impression they are guarding Robb's rear.

Quote

My brother commands in Riverrun?"

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

Gods grant him the strength to do so, Catelyn thought. And the wisdom as well. "Is there word from Robb in the west?" 

"You have not heard?" The man seemed surprised. "His Grace won a great victory at Oxcross. Ser Stafford Lannister is dead, his host scattered." (ACOK Catelyn V)

Robb unexpectedly bypasses the Golden Tooth with Grey Wind's help and crushes Stafford at Oxcross. Word is sent to Riverrun.

Quote

"How did the king ever take the Tooth?" Ser Perwyn Frey asked his bastard brother. "That's a hard strong keep, and it commands the hill road."

"He never took it. He slipped around it in the night. It's said the direwolf showed him the way, that Grey Wind of his. The beast sniffed out a goat track that wound down a defile and up along beneath a ridge, a crooked and stony way, yet wide enough for men riding single file. The Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." (ACOK Catelyn V)

Robb raids the westerlands after defeating Stafford. Rivermen believe it is revenge for the Lannisters' earlier attacks on the riverlands.

Quote

[Martyn Rivers] went on to tell how the remnants of Ser Stafford's host had fallen back on Lannisport. Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Lords Karstark and Glover were raiding along the coast, Lady Mormont had captured thousands of cattle and was driving them back toward Riverrun, while the Greatjon had seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep, and the Pendric Hills. Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold." (ACOK Catelyn V)

Renly dies unexpectedly. Thinking that Stannis will be preoccupied with a lengthy siege of Storm's End, Tywin departs Harrenhal to deal with Robb.

Quote

Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. (ACOK Tyrion X)

Cortnay Penrose dies unexpectedly, allowing Stannis to take Storm's End much sooner than anyone expected. Riverrun has been in contact with Robb via captured Ashemark.

Quote

"Save Cortnay Penrose," Catelyn murmured. She had never met the man, yet she grieved to hear of his passing. "Robb should know of this at once," she said. "Do we know where he is?"

"At last word he was marching toward the Crag, the seat of House Westerling," said Maester Vyman. "If I dispatched a raven to Ashemark, it may be that they could send a rider after him." (ACOK Catelyn VI)

Catelyn advises Edmure against fighting Tywin, suggesting he let the Lannisters pass peacefully. This surprises me, since Riverrun has already been besieged at the start of the war, and allowing Tywin to cross the Red Fork would more easily allow a second siege. I'm also surprised that Catelyn doesn't think of her son being outnumbered in enemy territory if the Lannisters return home. Besides guarding Robb's rear, Edmure also wants glory and vengeance against Tywin.

Quote

"He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety."

"This is Tully land," Edmure declared. "If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unbloodied, I mean to teach him a hard lesson." (ACOK Catelyn V)

The rivermen, who think Robb is just raiding, intend to fend off Tywin until Robb returns. Tywin can then be defeated by the combined northern/rivermen forces. 

Quote

"Yes, but once [Harrenhal] falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he'll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he'll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all."

Her brother's voice was full of brusque confidence, but Catelyn found herself wishing that Robb had not taken her uncle Brynden west with him. The Blackfish was the veteran of half a hundred battles; Edmure was the veteran of one, and that one lost.

"The plan's a good one," he concluded. "Lord Tytos says so, and Lord Jonos as well. When did Blackwood and Bracken agree about anything that was not certain, I ask you?" (ACOK Catelyn V)

Edmure defeats the Lannisters at the Red Fork but Robb is wounding while attacking the Crag.

Quote

Ser Desmond had brought twenty casks up from the cellars, and the smallfolk were celebrating Edmure's imminent return and Robb's conquest of the Crag by hoisting horns of nut-brown ale. (ACOK Catelyn VII)

"I took her castle and she took my heart." Robb smiled. "The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother." (ASOS Catelyn II)

The Freys at the Crag and Riverrun angrily leave after Robb weds Jeyne Westerling. Catelyn wonders if Edmure is to blame.

Quote

"With Ser Stevron, I might have been able to make amends, but Ser Ryman is dull-witted as a stone, and Black Walder . . . that one was not named for the color of his beard, I promise you. (ASOS Catelyn II)

Those are men who fought with Edmure on the fords, she thought. What could have made them so angry? Has my brother slighted them somehow, given them some insult? She thought she recognized Ser Perwyn Frey, who had traveled with her to Bitterbridge and Storm's End and back, and his bastard half brother Martyn Rivers as well, but from this vantage it was hard to be certain. Close to forty men poured out through the castle gates, to what end she did not know. (ASOS Catelyn I)

The Freys at Harrenhal remain with Roose Bolton, however.

Quote

Before him, a flight of broad stone steps led up to the entrance of one of Harrenhal's colossal round towers. Five knights and a northman stood looking down on him; the one paleeyed in wool and fur, the five fierce in mail and plate, with the twin towers sigil on their surcoats. "A fury of Freys," Jaime declared. "Ser Danwell, Ser Aenys, Ser Hosteen." He knew Lord Walder's sons by sight; his aunt had married one, after all. (ASOS Jaime IV)

Robb and Brynden blame Edmure for ruining Robb's plan, which was unknown to the rivermen.

Quote

"Good men died to defend those fords, Uncle." Edmure sounded outraged. "What, is no one to win victories but the Young Wolf? Did I steal some glory meant for you, Robb?"

The Blackfish said, "You were commanded to hold Riverrun, Edmure, no more."

"I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Lord Tywin's nose—"

"So you did," said Robb. "But a bloody nose won't win the war, will it? Did you ever think to ask yourself why we remained in the west so long after Oxcross? You knew I did not have enough men to threaten Lannisport or Casterly Rock."

"Why . . . there were other castles . . . gold, cattle . . ."

"You think we stayed for plunder?" Robb was incredulous. "Uncle, I wanted Lord Tywin to come west."

"We were all horsed," Ser Brynden said. "The Lannister host was mainly foot. We planned to run Lord Tywin a merry chase up and down the coast, then slip behind him to take up a strong defensive position athwart the gold road, at a place my scouts had found where the ground would have been greatly in our favor. If he had come at us there, he would have paid a grievous price. But if he did not attack, he would have been trapped in the west, a thousand leagues from where he needed to be. All the while we would have lived off his land, instead of him living off ours."

"Lord Stannis was about to fall upon King's Landing," Robb said. "He might have rid us of Joffrey, the queen, and the Imp in one red stroke. Then we might have been able to make a peace."

Edmure looked from uncle to nephew. "You never told me."

"I told you to hold Riverrun," said Robb. "What part of that command did you fail to comprehend?"

"When you stopped Lord Tywin on the Red Fork," said the Blackfish, "you delayed him just long enough for riders out of Bitterbridge to reach him with word of what was happening to the east. Lord Tywin turned his host at once, joined up with Matthis Rowan and Randyll Tarly near the headwaters of the Blackwater, and made a forced march to Tumbler's Falls, where he found Mace Tyrell and two of his sons waiting with a huge host and a fleet of barges. They floated down the river, disembarked half a day's ride from the city, and took Stannis in the rear." (ASOS Catelyn II)

GRRM is vague about when Robb and Brynden come up with the plan. Maybe Robb it planned before he left Riverrun in ACOK, but kept it a secret from Edmure (who would have to play a vital role in it), Theon, and Catelyn. Maybe Robb developed the plan while in the west after Renly's death, but it failed without new communication because the rivermen believed (rightly or wrongly) that they were supposed to protect Robb's smaller force from attack. 

Regarding Robb's statement that holding Riverrun meant that Edmure should have only defended the castle if it came under attack, there is also the example of Rodrik Cassel. Catelyn sends him back to Winterfell before she joins Robb at Moat Cailin.

Quote

 "Is Ser Rodrik with you as well, Mother? I've missed him."

"Ser Rodrik is on his way north from White Harbor. I have named him castellan and commanded him to hold Winterfell till our return. Maester Luwin is a wise counsellor, but unskilled in the arts of war." (AGOT Catelyn VIII)

Rodrik departs Winterfell to deal with Ramsay in the Hornwood and Dagmer at Torrhen's Square. Robb and Catelyn do not speak of Rodrik disobeying orders, and upon hearing of Rodrik's death (attributed to Theon's men) Catelyn thinks of him as "That dear brave loyal old soul (ASOS Catelyn IV)".

According to Daenerys's conversation with Xaro Xhoan Daxos, holding Meereen means controlling its hinterland, not just the the walled city.

Quote

"I am only a young girl and know little of such things, but older, wiser men tell me that to hold Meereen I must control its hinterlands, all the land west of Lhazar as far south as the Yunkish hills." (ADWD Daenerys III)

 

[Adam Yozza]

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

The Riverlords are in control of the lands west of the Red Fork something they faugth hard to regain with several lords like Bracken, Darry and Blackwood having to take back there castle. Now Robb's plan is to let Tywin march over these recently liberated lands, which he will in the process undoubtedly burn and pillage. Why would the Riverlords be okay with this? Well the promise that Tywin would be destroyed would go a long way, but they would have to know that this is going to happen in order for them to be okay whit once again seeing there lands burn.

Here's a fundamental flaw in your argument; and I'm not being a dick, I'm just pointing this out; None of the Lords you mentioned have land west of the Red Fork. Blackwood is either north or east of Riverrun. Bracken is east of the Red Fork and Tywin would have to march past Stone Hedge to get to the Red Fork in the first place and possibly also Raventree. And Darry is on the other side of the Riverlands, near the Ruby Ford. In fact, aside from Riverrun, no maps or textual passage indicates that any major house had any holdings west of the Red Fork. So that argument is moot.

[Sourjapes]

The Lannister army marched in prepared and with a clear plan for war and ready to execute it. The Riverlands meanwhile could only react. That's a huge disadvantage.

[cpg2016]

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

On this we disagree then, he did not make fortifications for one he just sent troops to hold and defend the fords not fortifie them, defending a place is by definition a defensive action, so it is not debatable that Edmures actions are defensive in nature.

Lol you don't get to state the truism "defending a place is defensive in nature" and then move on.  What constitutes "defending a place"?  As we agree, Edmure isn't actually AT Riverrun when he is "defending" it, so technically he is defending another location, and you argue that is for the purpose of defending Riverrun.  My point is that if the only justification Edmure needs to claim is that he is "defending" Riverrun, literally any action is justified.  Why not attack Kings Landing?  Why not march into the Reach?  These are both places that hold armies that are outright hostile to the Tullys and Riverrun.

You need to square this circle before you move on.  Edmure is given ONE instruction, and that is "defend Riverrun" and yet his fighting does not take place at Riverrun.  You need to show why defending the Red Fork is specifically tied to defending Riverrun in a way that, say, defending the lands on the east bank aren't.  The answer, by the way, is that the west bank is highly defensible... which again, means Edmure is explicitly exceeding his mandate, which was to protect Riverrun.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

We also seem to have a fundamental disagreement on they instructions which first of all are not defend Riverrun but hold Riverrun and i stand by my question why would that not include the lands sworn to it.

The entire Riverlands are sworn to Riverrun through a feudal chain of vassalage, and yet Edmure doesn't stir himself to defend the rest of it.

Our fundamental disagreement is on your thought process and logical reasoning.  You are making an implicit case that Edmure's writ to "defend Riverrun" extends to the west bank of the Red Fork and not a jot further east.  Either "Riverrun" means the castle (which is explicit), or it means literally the entire Riverlands.  Either way, Edmure is in the wrong; in the one case, he is exceeding his mandate by riding out of Riverrun, and in the other, he is underperforming by not defending enough of the Riverlands.

And by the way, if his orders were to "defend the lands sworn to Riverrun".... that is what he would have been commanded.  Exactly how specific did Robb have to be?  If your argument is that Riverrun is a viable euphemism for the entire Riverlands... well, is Robb supposed to mark out exactly how far Edmure can go?  He's riding off to a major military campaign, has very little time, and gives a clear order that is willfully misinterpreted by Edmure so he can go glory hunting to make up for his military failures earlier in the war.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

You really show your hand here you are a Robb fan, sorry but as brilliant as he was he was not perfect, he is admirable for the many victory's he won but he is also a 15 year old kid so him acting like one really is not that strange. And i never called the Blackfish an idiot, as a matter of fact i said multiple times that his accusations against Edmure seem out of character for him.

Of course Robb is an idiot and a typical teenager in some ways... but the one matter in which he has been invariably flawless in his judgement has been military tactics and strategy.  So... all of a sudden his unbroken string of brilliant successes should be ignored?  And my overarching point is that the Blackfish's comments are only "out of character" if you presume that YOUR opinion is correct!  If you are wrong (and you are), then everyone's comments and actions make perfect sense.  You are literally arguing against what the text makes explicit.  Edmure is told to hold only Riverrun because it's the bare minimum Robb can give as an order; for all he knows, there are spies in Riverrun and if he tells Edmure "we're trying to lure Tywin into the West" the whole game will be discovered.

If we accept that Edmure did wrong, then every action and speech we get makes sense.  All of this is only "out of character" if you are right and everyone in the book is wrong.  Edmure himself admits that he's in the wrong by agreeing to make amends!

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

Lets really analyse the situation here.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH I am so excited to pick this apart, because you display literally ZERO knowledge of the geography of the Riverlands below.  Your knowledge is almost as pathetic as your spelling and grammar.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

The Riverlords are in control of the lands west of the Red Fork something they faugth hard to regain with several lords like Bracken, Darry and Blackwood having to take back there castle.

OK, lets begin.  The Darry's and Brackens both have castles that are located east of the northern-flowing portion of the Red Fork (in other words, look at a map... south of Riverrun is the area we're taking about).  The Blackwoods are located NORTH of the Red Fork as it flows east past Riverrun.  So every single on of those families has a castle that is vulnerable to Tywin, even IF Edmure defends the Red Fork.  So again, either Edmure exceeds his orders, or doesn't do nearly enough to carry them out (because he's explicitly not protecting Castle Darry, Acorn Hall, or Blackwood Hall).

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

Why would the Riverlords be okay with this?

I have no idea.  But apparently they are, since everyone seems pretty okay with allowing Tywin the ability to pillage and burn most of the Bracken, Darry, and Blackwood lands.

Remember, Tywin is trying to cross the Red Fork to go west, which means he is only trying to cross the parts of the river SOUTH of Riverrun.  Again, this means Edmure has left the lands and castles of the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Darrys entirely unprotected.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

so who do you tell in order to prevent the angry Riverlords from taking matters into there own hands to defend there lands and mess up your plans

Right, except they didn't tell Edmure to do any of this, which is why everyone is angry with him.  As you say, it's out of character for the Blackfish to pin his failures on someone else... so maybe the issue here isn't with GRRM poorly writing a character, or a character acting strangely, but that your theory is just wrong?

If everything else has to have a twisted meaning, or a changed motivation, or is acting oddly, in order for your theory to work - well, it means your theory is wrong.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, direpupy said:

This is why not telling Edmure is a mistake and it is Robb's and the Blackfish there mistake, sure Edmure has blame to but that does not change the fact that they made a mistake and failed to own up to it, putting ALL of the blame on Edmure.

Again, this only makes sense if we assume "defend Riverrun" is a vague order.  Since Riverrun is a specific location, we have ample reason to believe that it isn't vague, but rather is precisely specific.

Put it this way.  Looked at in one light, everyone's reactions to what Edmure did make perfect sense - he was given a specific mission, to defend a very specific castle, and he exceeded that mission.  If this is the case, then we have no questions as to why Edmure feels guilty, why Robb is angry, why the Blackfish is "acting out of character" to quote you.  All of this shit only makes no sense and needs secondary explanations if we assume that the very specific order to defend Riverrun is actually vague code for "defend all the lands sworn to House Tully".

When you need to make shit up, and then rationalize the actions of others, to make a theory work, it's time to give up.  These kinds of theories work only when the canonical text makes no sense.

[direpupy]

On 12/26/2017 at 8:12 PM, cpg2016 said:

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAH I am so excited to pick this apart, because you display literally ZERO knowledge of the geography of the Riverlands below.  Your knowledge is almost as pathetic as your spelling and grammar.

 

When you need to make shit up, and then rationalize the actions of others, to make a theory work, it's time to give up.  These kinds of theories work only when the canonical text makes no sense.

I was away for the holidays so that's why i only respond to this now, i will not grace you with further responses apart from that they only one who does not understand the Riverlands geography is you.

Attacking someone who is not a native speaker of English on his grammar is just an attempt from you to hide that you have no real arguments left and that you now have to resort to insults.

I wish you good luck but i will move on to people who are open to discussions instead of clinging top there one head canon.

[cpg2016]

On 1/2/2018 at 3:05 AM, direpupy said:

I was away for the holidays so that's why i only respond to this now, i will not grace you with further responses apart from that they only one who does not understand the Riverlands geography is you.

Attacking someone who is not a native speaker of English on his grammar is just an attempt from you to hide that you have no real arguments left and that you now have to resort to insults.

I wish you good luck but i will move on to people who are open to discussions instead of clinging top there one head canon.

Dude, play the pity card all you want, but I just gave you hard geographic evidence as to why you aren't merely mistaken, but actively wrong.  Trying to bow out of a conversation isn't graceful, it's cowardly - admit your mistake or (try) to defend it.

[Adam Yozza]

On 02/01/2018 at 8:05 AM, direpupy said:

I was away for the holidays so that's why i only respond to this now, i will not grace you with further responses apart from that they only one who does not understand the Riverlands geography is you.

Mate, go look up a map of the Riverlands. There isn't a single major castle or settlement west of Riverrun.