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Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?


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7 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 There's only two characters in the book whom explicitly state that Rhaegar kidnapped & raped Lyanna..Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark. That can't be disputed. The other claims of kidnap and rape come in ambiguous natures and are unreliable at most. Again, this can't be disputed. Robert explicitly claims so because he can't grasp the fact that his betrothed was in love with someone else, and Bran is going by a story he was told, he wasn't around to actually know what happened, anyway. I'll try to find some exact quotes for you however, if you insist.

 

And I've read Jon's conversation with Ygritte, yet Jon is another Stark, whom is a Northerner and spent time with the free folk, came to respect them, and invited them into his company AFTER returning to the Night's Watch in part from this respect and the threat of The Others. Jon also practices some freefolk traditions when it comes to Ygritte, like her burial, I believe. Two examples of Starks whom did similar free folk things for the sake of love.

You seem to think that, if those two are the characters who mention something on-page then they must be the only characters to think so. That's flawed logic.

Another example of flawed logic is that, if Jon came to respect the freefolk, then it follows that every other character would know of, understand and accept the validity of their customs out of freefolk context. As if, Ned, Robert and co should totally be like, hey, freefolk steal their wives so there you have it, it's not a kidnapping but a consensual a marriage!

 

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@Ethelarion,

I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But, I would also rather move on to the topic than explain.

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7 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

You seem to think that, if those two are the characters who mention something on-page then they must be the only characters to think so. That's flawed logic.

Another example of flawed logic is that, if Jon came to respect the freefolk, then it follows that every other character would know of, understand and accept the validity of their customs out of freefolk context. As if, Ned, Robert and co should totally be like, hey, freefolk steal their wives so there you have it, it's not a kidnapping but a consensual a marriage!

 

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@Ethelarion,

I don't think you understand what I am talking about. But, I would also rather move on to the topic than explain.

Uhm no, I simply pointed out a fact, that those are the only two whom explicitly claim Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Everyone else whom alludes to it in the book, like I said do so in ambiguous tones, they aren't speaking of what they know, they're speaking of what they heard or were told. Thats just a fact of the text, simple.

 

And please don't put words in my mouth, thank you. I said none of that, in regards to your explanation of my free folk statement.

Quote

"Nonetheless" Ned said.  "The murder of children, it would be vile...unspeakable.."

 

"Unspeakable?" The king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable And Rhaegar...how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal and pointing an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Roberts thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. "You can't get your hands on this one, can you?" he said quietly.

 

A book quote, of Robert explicitly claiming Rhaegar raped Lyanna not once, but hundreds of times. Ned's view and responses clearly give the notion that whatever it may be, he doesn't agree or see eye to eye with Robert on this specific issue of his hate for the Targaryens, specifically Rhaegar. Interesting how not once does her own brother, Ned , throughout AGOT state himself that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, even once. Perhaps because being the last person to be with his sister before taking her last breath, he actually knows the truth of the matter.

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And a little more, implicating Robert could have been an instigator just as much as Jon Arryn..

 

Quote

The Other take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna on the Trident." Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

"That did not bring her back." Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. "The gods be damned.It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown... It was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe....and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike."

 

Again, Roberts idealized version of Lyanna comes into effect here, when I don't think it's ever said in the novels that her and Robert really knew one another or spent much time together, or that she shared his love for her, in turn for him. But thats a different thread entirely.

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58 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

And a little more, implicating Robert could have been an instigator just as much as Jon Arryn..

 

I'm not sure how this hints that Robert was an instigator on the same level as Jon Arryn. We know for a fact that Jon Arryn chose war over handing over Robert and Eddard to Aerys, and while its very likely that Robert would have used violence to defend his life, we don't know what Robert said or how much influence Robert would have had on Jon Arryn's decision.

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4 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

or that she shared his love for her, in turn for him.

Given that she expressed hesitation over the matter when the betrothal was announced over whether he would keep to her bed or not, a matter in which she would be later proven correct, i'd say not. Ned also thinks about this rather grimly because he believed that Robert would be a good and honest husband, yet by this time he has seen too many examples of his blatant infidelity for this to be true.

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On 12/19/2017 at 5:46 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 Don't imply I haven't read the books, because I think I've proven since my time here that I've done so. I'm currently doing a re-read and about to finish A Storm Of Swords, thank you, get over yourself.

Well, I can only imply based on what your indicating here... and the point you made on this thread was factually incorrect.

On 12/19/2017 at 5:46 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Again, like I said, the supposed raping and kidnapping of Lyanna can be seen as the root of the reasons for The War Of The Usurper, Brandon takes Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the TQoLaB as a slight and an insult to her honor, the exact reason why is never stated, but one would have to assume it's because she was already bethrothed and Rhaegar was married with children.

Well, if you're argument is that anything preceding the Rebellion that might tie into the reasons for it are viable candidates for "what caused Robert's Rebellion" then almost anything is in play.  Brandon's birth?  Lyanna's betrothal to Robert?  Rhaegar reading the prophecy of the PTWP?

In the final reckoning, Robert's Rebellion begins when Aerys II calls for the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon.  Full stop.  Are there reasons he does so?  Sure, nothing happens in a vacuum, but despite all the many injustices perpetrated before that moment, there was no rebellion.  After, there was.

And yes, Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna despite being already married is an implication that they are having an extramarital affair, or that he wants to start one, either of which are highly insulting.

On 12/19/2017 at 5:46 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 Robert initially had little issue with what Rhaegar did at the Tourney of Harrenhal, for whatever reason though it festered, Robert gained a hatred for Rhaegar.

Uh.... again, I know you're not gonna want to hear this, but read the books!

As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

Robert is pissed from Day 1; he absolutely has an issue with what Rhaegar does, but brushes it off in public (because, honestly... what's he gonna do?  No crime was committed, just an insult, and Rhaegar is a popular crown prince).

If you want to be treated as someone with a grasp of the timeline and motivations, argue like it.  If you are going to slip incorrect facts into your argument, I am going to call you out.

On 12/19/2017 at 5:46 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Lyanna is taken by Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, & Whent, months after the fact, Robert is cited as claiming Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Brandon went to Kings Landing to demand his sister, she wasn't there, Aerys imprisoned Brandon and sent for Rickard, if he wanted his son he'd have to come to Kings Landing to get him, he killed both of them. After this Aerys sends to Arryn and demands the heads of Robert & Ned, Jon Arryn denies and raises his banners, the rebellion is begun. The kidnapping and "raping" of Lyanna was the root of all of this. What exactly is the problem?

Let's start with canonical text, and move on to all the reasons your position is logically unsound.  First off, our in-universe historian agrees with me (which is, of course, why I take the position):

 Many now agree that the true start of Robert's Rebellion began with Lord Arryn's refusal and his courageous calling of his banners in the defense of justice. 

But beyond that, your argument creates a slippery slope of cascading effects which won't ever stop.  Why are you stopping with Lyanna's rape?  If that causes the event that causes the events that cause the Rebellion, then why shouldn't Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna be considered the true cause (since that predates the abduction?).  Or why not Lyanna's betrothal to Robert, since that is, in large part, what makes the insult so deadly?  Why not blame Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions, which embroil him in politics and put his family at the Tourney at Harrenhall in the first place?

See how this goes?  At the end of the day, we are told, explicitly, that Robert's Rebellion begins when Aerys calls for the heads of Ned and Robert, and they, along with Jon Arryn, call their banners for the explicit purpose of the resisting and potentially unseating the Targaryens.  Yes, all of those actions have causes, some of which you mention, but making that argument is making the implicit case that every cause named ALSO has a root cause, and that those should be considered the real reason for Robert's Rebellion.  It's endlessly reductive, and thus, meaningless and foolish.

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18 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Uhm no, I simply pointed out a fact, that those are the only two whom explicitly claim Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Everyone else whom alludes to it in the book, like I said do so in ambiguous tones, they aren't speaking of what they know, they're speaking of what they heard or were told. Thats just a fact of the text, simple.

And please don't put words in my mouth, thank you. I said none of that, in regards to your explanation of my free folk statement.

Well, I admit that I did make some assumptions, but that was the only way that the book references you made could be -even if flawed- somewhat relevant to the arguments you were making. Otherwise, bringing up Robert's belief that Lyanna was raped, or the Wildling wedding customs, do not make sense at all in regards to your disagreement with me on what was the logical public perception of the events.

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  • 2 weeks later...

aegon all day every day

Great warrior

aloof and an enigma 

so revered that even the ironborn leader said he was aegon's man and his son should do the same

loyal to his wives (people were telling him Visenya was barren for years and he had issues with her and still had her as his queen)

rode the baddest dragon in history (that we know of so far)

kicked the ironborn ass twice 

gave the realm decades of peace after his dornish wars 

Just a larger than life figure 

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  • 5 months later...
On 12/14/2017 at 6:34 AM, Jon Fossoway said:

I don't know why people keep calling Bob a more relatable character. He was a detached, negligent, alcoholic, cucked man who was terrible at managing a Kingdom. I'd take weird alien Aegon everyday over Bob. 

Aegon was cucked too. The only real difference is that it was by the woman he loved.

Yet despite these rumors, observers at court could not fail to note that the king spent ten nights with Rhaenys for every night with Visenya. (“The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest”, The World of Ice and Fire)

Whilst no one ever questioned Visenya’s fidelity to her brother/husband, Rhaenys surrounded herself with comely young men, and (it was whispered) even entertained some in her bedchambers on the nights when Aegon was with her elder sister. (“The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest”, The World of Ice and Fire)

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