Angel Eyes

What if Catelyn Stark survived the Red Wedding?

58 posts in this topic

In this case, the Freys decide to imprison her when Robb is murdered, instead of cutting her throat. 

Because I’m honestly not seeing any purpose to having her rampage through the Riverlands as an undead hanging judge who targets Freys and boys.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

In this case, the Freys decide to imprison her when Robb is murdered, instead of cutting her throat. 

Because I’m honestly not seeing any purpose to having her rampage through the Riverlands as an undead hanging judge who targets Freys and boys.

Well Tywin did mention that he meant for her to be kept alive when they received the letter, as to what purpose he had in mind for her we'll likely never know, possibly to serve as regent for her grandson when Tyrion and Sansa arrived in the north after winter was finished as per his original plan.

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2 hours ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Actually she survived.

No, she died and was then revived. That's different from surviving.

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Well with the Red Wedding over and the war against the Crown lost her captors would tell her information about her daughters that she did not know. That Arya is missing and presumed dead and that Sansa has been wedded, and presumably bedded,(even if it is not the case) by Tyrion Lannister. Add that to her seeing Robb's body with his wolf's head attached to his neck and she might just slit own throat and jump in the river. Then as @Dorian Martell's son's always says, the story would go on as it was written.

 

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2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, she died and was then revived. That's different from surviving.

That's not different from surviving. 

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19 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

That's not different from surviving. 

It is I don't think Sansa would be happy to see Lady Stoneheart. It is a different person, if she survived she would probably not be as cruel.

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19 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

That's not different from surviving. 

I think it is. I understand that I might be something of a pedant about this but to me "surviving" means that living through something. I'll give you two examples.

Jesus supposedly died on the cross, he didn't survive it, but he then returned from the dead.

Odin hanged for nine days on the world tree, but never died so he did survive the ordeal.

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Why would anyone think that Catelyn would feel and act any different had she survived instead of dying and coming back?

The point is that, with all her family dead, or as good as, she'd have no reason to live, except for revenge. Actually, her coming back as lady Stoneheart is time borrowed to do exactly that, and then go for good.

Had she not be killed in the Red Wedding, she'd be held hostage, most likely. With no means to act, she would have no reason to go on and she'd most likely kill herself. Anyway, I don't think she'd be a useful hostage for anyone, really.

In the odd possibility that she'd be somehow alive and free, I am quite certain that she'd take the same path as she is now as lady Stoneheart. Perhaps not so successfully, as the supernatural element adds weight (therefore, sway) on her existance, but still. There's nothing else for her as it is.

Edited by ShadowCat Rivers

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6 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Why would anyone think that Catelyn would feel and act any different had she survived instead of dying and coming back?

The point is that, with all her family dead, or as good as, she'd have no reason to live, except for revenge. Actually, her coming back as lady Stoneheart is time borrowed to do exactly that, and then go for good.

Had she not be killed in the Red Wedding, she'd be held hostage, most likely. With no means to act, she would have no reason to go on and she'd most likely kill herself. Anyway, I don't think she'd be a useful hostage for anyone, really.

In the odd possibility that she'd be somehow alive and free, I am quite certain that she'd take the same path as she is now as lady Stoneheart. Perhaps not so successfully, as the supernatural element adds weight (therefore, sway) on her existance, but still. There's nothing else for her as it is.

why would she most likely want to kill herself even some of her family died? By the way Sansa and Arya (as far as she know) are still alive. Her sister and brother too. Cat is a strong-willed woman and also relatively young and beautiful. She could recover, remarry, have more children, and have a better new life which she deserves. 

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30 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

why would she most likely want to kill herself even some of her family died? By the way Sansa and Arya (as far as she know) are still alive. Her sister and brother too. Cat is a strong-willed woman and also relatively young and beautiful. She could recover, remarry, have more children, and have a better new life which she deserves. 

It's not like she lost them in a car accident or something. The context is more than very specific, she'd be the sole (for all intents and purposes) survivor of a lost war. A medieval lost war, to be exact. Vae victis. No bright future ahead.

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8 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Why would anyone think that Catelyn would feel and act any different had she survived instead of dying and coming back?

The point is that, with all her family dead, or as good as, she'd have no reason to live, except for revenge. Actually, her coming back as lady Stoneheart is time borrowed to do exactly that, and then go for good.

Had she not be killed in the Red Wedding, she'd be held hostage, most likely. With no means to act, she would have no reason to go on and she'd most likely kill herself. Anyway, I don't think she'd be a useful hostage for anyone, really.

In the odd possibility that she'd be somehow alive and free, I am quite certain that she'd take the same path as she is now as lady Stoneheart. Perhaps not so successfully, as the supernatural element adds weight (therefore, sway) on her existance, but still. There's nothing else for her as it is.

Because death does weird things to your brain.

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8 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Why would anyone think that Catelyn would feel and act any different had she survived instead of dying and coming back?

The point is that, with all her family dead, or as good as, she'd have no reason to live, except for revenge. Actually, her coming back as lady Stoneheart is time borrowed to do exactly that, and then go for good.

Had she not be killed in the Red Wedding, she'd be held hostage, most likely. With no means to act, she would have no reason to go on and she'd most likely kill herself. Anyway, I don't think she'd be a useful hostage for anyone, really.

In the odd possibility that she'd be somehow alive and free, I am quite certain that she'd take the same path as she is now as lady Stoneheart. Perhaps not so successfully, as the supernatural element adds weight (therefore, sway) on her existance, but still. There's nothing else for her as it is.

I've always thought that LSH isn't too different from Catelyn. Sure, LSH seems more vengeful and cruel, but we don't have her POV. If we ever get her POV, I think we might see most of Cat still in there (I don't mean to say Cat was as bad as LSH, I like Cat). The RW certainly traumatized her, so I'm not surprised by her behavior.

Had she survived and been held captive, she wouldn't have the means to exact revenge, but I'm not so sure she would've given up. I think she would've continued to try to punish the freys and/or find her daughters.

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47 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Because death does weird things to your brain.

To my knowledge, it simply stops it from working. Nothing weird.

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I've always thought that LSH isn't too different from Catelyn. Sure, LSH seems more vengeful and cruel, but we don't have her POV. If we ever get her POV, I think we might see most of Cat still in there (I don't mean to say Cat was as bad as LSH, I like Cat). The RW certainly traumatized her, so I'm not surprised by her behavior.

Had she survived and been held captive, she wouldn't have the means to exact revenge, but I'm not so sure she would've given up. I think she would've continued to try to punish the freys and/or find her daughters.

I agree on the first - LSH is an extreme version of Catelyn, but still her. Her behaviour should not be unexpected; it's that of desperate people with nothing left to lose.

On the second though, I can't imagine how any captive can do anything other than try to survive (if they still have the drive). How would she even try to punish the Freys when she's in their dungeons? How would she find her daughters, and most importantly, for what? So that the Freys / Lannisters / Boltons get them and use them for their own nasty reasons? As long as she's captive, her daughters are better off if she doesn't know anything about their fate.

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16 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 A medieval lost war, to be exact. Vae victis. No bright future ahead.

While that is true to some extend, don't forget that she's the lady of Winterfell, not lord or male heir to it. If she had survived she'd be likely put to use to secure the Lannister's/Iron Throne supremacy over the Riverlands and married to either a Frey or Lannister. Not the nicest fate, especially for a proud woman like Catelyn, but it would at least enable her to, eventually, see her surviving family members again (those that aren't off getting brainwashed by some death assassin cult)

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15 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I agree on the first - LSH is an extreme version of Catelyn, but still her. Her behaviour should not be unexpected; it's that of desperate people with nothing left to lose.

Agreed, at this point she's all out of f**ks to give, in her last chapter of Clash she reflects about how all her life she has always done her duty and has almost always done as she is told by her father or her husband, and then thinks about how doing so hasn't helped in the long run. Whereas we see that characters who have rebelled against authority and avoided their duty such as Jaime and Cersei, things have gone differently for them. Of course there is more to it than that, but it shows us that being constantly obediant and submitting to authority doesn't always work.

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15 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I agree on the first - LSH is an extreme version of Catelyn, but still her. Her behaviour should not be unexpected; it's that of desperate people with nothing left to lose.

 

Indeed. We also need to bear in mind that Catelyn literally had a psychotic breakdown just moments before she was killed. Yet her motivations and desires to kill Freys, Lannisters, Boltons and all associated with them are based on what Catelyn herself feels and knows about what they did to her family. It is the compassionate side of her that has taken a hit -- unsurprising, given her traumatic death.

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Isn't the thing about the revived dead in Planetos that they are stuck in the mindset they had just before dead? So basically that means Lady Stoneheart has an eternal psychotic breakdown she channels into revenge, while still living Catelyn could have eventually recovered again in some way.

Or is that all just fan speculation?

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4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

While that is true to some extend, don't forget that she's the lady of Winterfell, not lord or male heir to it. If she had survived she'd be likely put to use to secure the Lannister's/Iron Throne supremacy over the Riverlands and married to either a Frey or Lannister. Not the nicest fate, especially for a proud woman like Catelyn, but it would at least enable her to, eventually, see her surviving family members again (those that aren't off getting brainwashed by some death assassin cult)

Last time I read the books, Sansa was wanted for regicide. Taking this into account, seeing Sansa again would equal witnessing her execution. For some weird reason, I don't think Catelyn would wish to see that.

 

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Isn't the thing about the revived dead in Planetos that they are stuck in the mindset they had just before dead? So basically that means Lady Stoneheart has an eternal psychotic breakdown she channels into revenge, while still living Catelyn could have eventually recovered again in some way.

Or is that all just fan speculation?

The books suggest that they lose some of their more personal memories and become mostly set on their purpose. That's about it, then readers draw their own conclusions to the extent that this happens. Some people believe that the wish for revenge is unnatural and a sign of psychotic behaviour, so they label LS as psychotic. However, her actions as we see them are pretty rational if you ask me. Draconian to an extreme, yes, but irrational? no, the text does not support this view IMO.

Edited by ShadowCat Rivers

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On 12/16/2017 at 5:11 AM, RedGrace that was promised said:

That's not different from surviving. 

It definitely is. This shouldn't be an argument, you're just wrong here. She died and was revived by magic, which in turn cost another seemingly immortal being his life, or lack thereof. 

 

And Tywin makes it known in ASOS that the plan was for Catelyn to be held prisoner. But I think it may have been the slap to (was it Lothar or Black Walder) one of the Frey twins, that resulted in her death, Lord Walder may have seen that as a slight. I don't know.

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