What if Catelyn Stark survived the Red Wedding?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I know Cat's feelings re Jon.  I was asking how / why Cat would support "the Vale" to spite Jon when she has four live children to support.  If the poster thinks the will bars any surviving children of Ned and Catelyn from the succession and only Jon should be supported then I (and Wyman Manderly) beg to differ.

And not quite re the latter part: she knew that Jon and Robb loved each other like brothers but feared that if Jon were legitimised his sons might some day contend with Robb's for WF.  She didn't see Jon as Richard III, she feared an alternative line of succession vying with her own.  You only need to look at the way the poster I was responding to supports Jon's "claim" to see what Catelyn feared, a son of Ned Stark with with newfound legitimacy.

 

You're missing the point.

Bran is a cripple and cannot have children.

 

Rickon is a feral babe.

Arya is a serial killer and presumed dead.

 

Sansa is Littlefinger's puppet. The North is in need of strong leadership, and if Jon resurrects from the dead, he could very well be that individual 

 

But out of spite, Catelyn would sell the North to the Vale - since she never ga e a shit about the North or HousStark, just to keep Jon from ruling, even if it would be in the best interests of the North.

[the trees have eyes]

16 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

 

You're missing the point.

Bran is a cripple and cannot have children.

 

Rickon is a feral babe.

Arya is a serial killer and presumed dead.

 

Sansa is Littlefinger's puppet. The North is in need of strong leadership, and if Jon resurrects from the dead, he could very well be that individual 

 

But out of spite, Catelyn would sell the North to the Vale - since she never ga e a shit about the North or HousStark, just to keep Jon from ruling, even if it would be in the best interests of the North.

Stepped right into the cut

You have just outlined the arguments for passing over her children that are precisely the sort of reasons she did not want Jon legitimised.  Of course she expected Robb to have heirs by Jeyne so the issue has been brought forward but Sansa and Arya are both free (whereabouts unknown) and both Bran and Rickon are alive so Jon could easily be a regent for any of his half-siblings but King Jon is the only thing you are prepared to hear.

She never gave a shit about the North or House Stark?  Jesus, I said let the hate go... Deep breaths now, don't do youself an injury..

Oh and Jon's not dead

[Livesundersink]

1 hour ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

But out of spite, Catelyn would sell the North to the Vale - since she never ga e a shit about the North or HousStark, just to keep Jon from ruling, even if it would be in the best interests of the North.

She suggests the Vale option, but they do not have access to any family trees or genealogies, so for all they know it could be a dead end, and that's assuming they would able to get through all of Lysa's roadblocks and backstabbing.

 

56 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

both Bran and Rickon are alive

We the readers know this but they themselves do not, however i would like for LSH to hear the Jon turned Stannis down in favour of staying the NW, would turn all her beliefs upside down.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Stepped right into the cut

You have just outlined the arguments for passing over her children that are precisely the sort of reasons she did not want Jon legitimised.  Of course she expected Robb to have heirs by Jeyne so the issue has been brought forward but Sansa and Arya are both free (whereabouts unknown) and both Bran and Rickon are alive so Jon could easily be a regent for any of his half-siblings but King Jon is the only thing you are prepared to hear.

She never gave a shit about the North or House Stark?  Jesus, I said let the hate go... Deep breaths now, don't do youself an injury..

Oh and Jon's not dead

The fact she prefers some random vale lordling inheriting Winterfell over Jon Snow proves that she doesn't care about House Stark or the North.

 

They know nothing of this Vale lordling, and it is unlikely he follows the religion and culture of the North. Robb even mentions this 

 

That she would prefer the North be a puppet Kingdom over Jon Snow inheriting is Dan ng evidence.

[Livesundersink]

37 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The fact she prefers some random vale lordling inheriting Winterfell over Jon Snow proves that she doesn't care about House Stark or the North.

 

They know nothing of this Vale lordling, and it is unlikely he follows the religion and culture of the North. Robb even mentions this 

 

That she would prefer the North be a puppet Kingdom over Jon Snow inheriting is Dan ng evidence.

There was a SSM in 2003 that states there might be cadet branches of House Stark in Barrowtown or White Harbour, given that Storm was released in 99/00, it probably doesn't mean anything

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1239/

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The fact she prefers some random vale lordling inheriting Winterfell over Jon Snow proves that she doesn't care about House Stark or the North.

 

They know nothing of this Vale lordling, and it is unlikely he follows the religion and culture of the North. Robb even mentions this 

 

That she would prefer the North be a puppet Kingdom over Jon Snow inheriting is Dan ng evidence.

No, the whole point is she expects him to have heirs by Jeyne and she does not want him to create a succession crisis down the line by legitimising Jon and creating a rival Stark line to contend with his.  The Vale cousins are not credible claimants to Winterfell and would have zero support but Jon's children as grandsons of Ned Stark could pose a serious threat.  That's what she is afraid of. 

All her children are Starks, she cares very much about them and the fortune of their and her House

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

She suggests the Vale option, but they do not have access to any family trees or genealogies, so for all they know it could be a dead end, and that's assuming they would able to get through all of Lysa's roadblocks and backstabbing.

 

We the readers know this but they themselves do not, however i would like for LSH to hear the Jon turned Stannis down in favour of staying the NW, would turn all her beliefs upside down.

But she’s not Catelyn anymore, is she?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

28 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

No, the whole point is she expects him to have heirs by Jeyne and she does not want him to create a succession crisis down the line by legitimising Jon and creating a rival Stark line to contend with his.  The Vale cousins are not credible claimants to Winterfell and would have zero support but Jon's children as grandsons of Ned Stark could pose a serious threat.  That's what she is afraid of. 

All her children are Starks, she cares very much about them and the fortune of their and her House

If that Vale lordling marries into a powerful family, then Catelyn's children are just as likely to be killed to remove a threat.

[the trees have eyes]

8 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

If that Vale lordling marries into a powerful family, then Catelyn's children are just as likely to be killed to remove a threat.

That Vale Lordling receives no support in the North, married into a powerful family or not, because they are not descended directly from Ned. 

[Livesundersink]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

That Vale Lordling receives no support in the North, married into a powerful family or not, because they are not descended directly from Ned. 

And as quoted from Robb "has never so much as set eyes on Winterfell"

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

That Vale Lordling receives no support in the North, married into a powerful family or not, because they are not descended directly from Ned. 

Which puts Catelyn children in more danger.

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Which puts Catelyn children in more danger.

No, it means his "claim" is a lost cause compared with the blood of Ned Stark and unless he is a brainless numpty he realises that and doesn't get himself killed in a futile attempt to win himself a crown.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

No, it means his "claim" is a lost cause compared with the blood of Ned Stark and unless he is a brainless numpty he realises that and doesn't get himself killed in a futile attempt to win himself a crown.

Ugh no. He or she would just marry someone from a powerful family (Tyrell, Lannisters, Martells, etc) and then attempt to claim what King Robb declared was theirs.

And later, when it is reveal d that Bran and Rickon are alive, they are quietly killed off.

 

This is how politics actually works in a medieval setting.

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

11 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Ugh no. He or she would just marry someone from a powerful family (Tyrell, Lannisters, Martells, etc) and then attempt to claim what King Robb declared was theirs.

And later, when it is reveal d that Bran and Rickon are alive, they are quietly killed off.

 

This is how politics actually works in a medieval setting.

 

 

This isn’t exactly a medieval setting, what with dragons and zombies, and evil White Walkers.

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Ugh no. He or she would just marry someone from a powerful family (Tyrell, Lannisters, Martells, etc) and then attempt to claim what King Robb declared was theirs.

And later, when it is reveal d that Bran and Rickon are alive, they are quietly killed off.

 

This is how politics actually works in a medieval setting.

 

 

Duh, no.  Your hypothetical vale lordling who marries a hypothetical Southern lord of uncerain lineage still has no support in the north compared to the children of Ned Stark.  He knows it, the vale lordling knows it, they know it's a futile case so they don't bother getting themselves and a lot of their men killed over some daft invasion up the causeway to Moat Cailin or a seaborne invasion.

How's it working out for Theon or Roose Bolton by the way?   Tywin's plan was the best of a poor bunch and that involved Sansa.  Stannis's may not be bad but it also involves Arya and Jon.  The North aren't accepting any Vale Lord while the children of Ned Stark are alive and you might hand wave them out of the equation but that's your mistake.

Politics is the art of the practical, not of the idiotic.  You don't play a losing hand, you stay out of the game.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Duh, no.  Your hypothetical vale lordling who marries a hypothetical Southern lord of uncerain lineage still has no support in the north compared to the children of Ned Stark.  He knows it, the vale lordling knows it, they know it's a futile case so they don't bother getting themselves and a lot of their men killed over some daft invasion up the causeway to Moat Cailin or a seaborne invasion.

How's it working out for Theon or Roose Bolton by the way?   Tywin's plan was the best of a poor bunch and that involved Sansa.  Stannis's may not be bad but it also involves Arya and Jon.  The North aren't accepting any Vale Lord while the children of Ned Stark are alive and you might hand wave them out of the equation but that's your mistake.

Politics is the art of the practical, not of the idiotic.  You don't play a losing hand, you stay out of the game.

At this point, nobody knows that Bran and Rickon and Arya are alive. And with Sansa disinherited, the Vale lordling would be able to gain support, especially since Robb named him/her as heir.

 

And once it is found out that Bed's children are alive, they are unlikely to gain support - a cripple, serial killer, and feral child.

 

That is why naming Jon as heir is the smart move. He is a known quantity.

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

At this point, nobody knows that Bran and Rickon and Arya are alive. And with Sansa disinherited, the Vale lordling would be able to gain support, especially since Robb named him/her as heir.

 

And once it is found out that Bed's children are alive, they are unlikely to gain support - a cripple, serial killer, and feral child.

 

That is why naming Jon as heir is the smart move. He is a known quantity.

The Mountain Clans sure know about Bran.  The BWB sure know about Arya.  Wex may not have made it to White Harbour by this point but he may well have: Manderly and Glover's plans in ADWD are to secure Rickon from Skagos so your argument that Ned's children would be unlikely to gain support is demonstrably false based on the books.

I'll take the books over your dislike of Catelyn (and therefore anything she does or argues) every time.

Robb has given up on all of his siblings, Catelyn has not given up on her children.  Would you really expect her to?  Nor does she want Robb to risk a succession crisis down the line by creating an alternative Stark line.  Different perspectives.

Jon gets a chance to be KitN when Stannis offers to make him that.  He turns it down.  Smart move if you ask me.  Doesn't mean he can't play a part in rallying the North (as he does).

[Victor Newman]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:25 PM, Angel Eyes said:

In this case, the Freys decide to imprison her when Robb is murdered, instead of cutting her throat. 

Catelyn sealed her fate when she killed Aegon Frey.  That was most inappropriate.  

Because I’m honestly not seeing any purpose to having her rampage through the Riverlands as an undead hanging judge who targets Freys and boys.

Catelyn could be used to smooth over land acquisitions if she proved tractable.  Meaning the Lannisters could marry her to one of their kin to smooth over the taking of additional lands from the River lands.  One of the houses who supported the Starks would lose their lands to a Lannister kin.  A marriage to Catelyn could smooth that over.  That's what the Lannisters may want but Catelyn is strong-willed and would cause trouble for them.  It was for the best that they killed her.