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Tyrells perform Purple Wedding without LF. Good or bad?


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  • LF's contact with Dontos
  • LF's diplomatic mission to form Lannister-Tyrell alliance
  • Mandon Moore's attempt to kill Tyrion (possibly ordered by LF)
  • Oswell's contact with Penny and her brother
  • Tyrells/LF killing Joffrey (LF's attempt to get rid of Tyrion)

Would Tyrells kill Joffrey if LF wasn't involved ? What made Olenna to trust LF? Did she agree to give Sansa to LF? I think that Joffrey was perfect choice for LF to weaken Iron Throne and his real targets were Tyrion/Tywin. Did LF want to kill Joffrey or to remove Tyrion from power?

 

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It's almost certain that the Tyrells would kill Joffrey without Baelish's involvement.

Littlefinger doesn't want to weaken the Iron Throne, that's Varys.  Littlefinger wants to advance his own agenda; sometimes that means having a weakened central authority, because his social climbing is reliant on providing "un-noble" services which result in reward within the chaos of war.  Sometimes it means strong central authority.

The Tyrell's have no care in the world for Littlefinger's ambition.  They're protecting Margaery and giving her a more pliable, potentially more pro-Tyrell king and husband.  Joffrey is biting it one way or another, especially once he starts abusing Margaery.

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30 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Would Tyrells kill Joffrey if LF wasn't involved ?

What made Olenna to trust LF?

Did she agree to give Sansa to LF? 

I think that Joffrey was perfect choice for LF to weaken Iron Throne and his real targets were Tyrion/Tywin. 

Did LF want to kill Joffrey or to remove Tyrion from power?

Yes.

Plot hole in story.

No.

It was a terrible choice for weakening Iron Throne. For that best target would of course be Tywin. But LF wants Tyrion dead more because he is Sansa's husband.

He wanted to kill Joffrey, there is no way he could predict Tyrion being accused of murder for certain.

I think this is a plot hole in the books. There are proves poison was in wine and that Littlefinger's story is true. But story makes no sense:

1. biggest issue being why would Ollena trust Littlefinger?

She could get poison herself, she would be able to deliver it directly to Joffrey's wine and wouldn't need to rely on a drunkard and Sansa. Neckless could lose the poison sooner, Ollena maybe wouldn't be able to take the poison of Sansa's hairnet ... Littlefinger could be working for Lannister and whole purple wedding would be a trap for Tyrells which would gain Lannisters ultimate power.

2. Littlefinger has no motive, while he has motive to kill Tyrion or even Tywin.

Tyrion is married to Sansa and Littlefinger needs Sansa to be single to be of any use. He wants Iron Throne to further destabilize and Joffrey was good at doing that while Tommen is a good boy. LF could not predict Tyrion killing Tywin.

3. Choking on food is more likely than on wine.

4. Comparison of strangler effect on Joffrey and Cressen.

Joffrey drinks wine says few sentences and starts coughing while still manages to say a few words than dies. Cressen cannot even say a word after he drinks a small amount of wine (Mel is a good drinker). You can argue Cressen is old man but Joffrey is a child and difference should not be that big with such a fast poison, a bullet in head kills the Mountain or Aemon in pretty much the same time. Joffrey's wine seems to be more concentrated with with strangler (it changes color to purple - Cressen describes no change which doesn't means that there was non) and Joffrey drinks more of the wine.

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51 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:
  • LF's contact with Dontos
  • LF's diplomatic mission to form Lannister-Tyrell alliance
  • Mandon Moore's attempt to kill Tyrion (possibly ordered by LF)
  • Oswell's contact with Penny and her brother
  • Tyrells/LF killing Joffrey (LF's attempt to get rid of Tyrion)

Would Tyrells kill Joffrey if LF wasn't involved ? What made Olenna to trust LF? Did she agree to give Sansa to LF? I think that Joffrey was perfect choice for LF to weaken Iron Throne and his real targets were Tyrion/Tywin. Did LF want to kill Joffrey or to remove Tyrion from power?

 

The Tyrells have absolutely no reason to kill Joffrey. Their goal is to make Margy queen so that she can produce a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne. By killing Joffrey, they put that plan into unnecessary jeopardy because a) there is no guarantee that Tommen will be offered next, and b ) they have to wait at least five more years to cement their line to the IT, which is an incredibly long time when talking about children in a feudal society at war.

All this business about Lady O being terrified that Joffrey is going to hurt Margaery is nonsense. First of all, neither Lady O nor Margaery ever express such an idea, nor does Joffrey exhibit the slightest hostility toward Margaery, ever. So the whole idea is nothing by fanfic. I would go so far as to say that Margaery is probably the only person in the entire world at this point that Joffrey does not despise, and she has all the tools in her seductress kit to keep him willing and pliant for a good long time. Sure, maybe someday Joffrey will grow tired of Margaery, and may even start to abuse her, but this is likely to be a long time coming, and if all he does is give her the same treatment that he gave Sansa, that is nothing that Margaery could not endure to keep her crown -- plenty of queens, both real and in-story, have endured far worse for theirs.

And, of course, if Joffrey did become unbearable at some point in the future and Margaery actual life is threatened, then there are plenty of ways to get rid of him and make it look like an accident, and this can be done quietly, with no witnesses, and by then the Tyrell link to the IT will be secure because there will likely be several heirs ready to take up the crown.

All of the "plot holes" that people see in the story -- everything from Lady O trusting the man who got her into this jam in the first place to the utterly unpredictable twists and turns that the chalice took to end up in the exact spot for poisoning -- are all based on the completely unfounded assumption that the poison was in the wine and the target was Joffrey. The poison was in the pie and the target was Tyrion; there are no plot holes with that conclusion, except the ones the wine-lovers invent out of sheer stubbornness.

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Littlefinger doesn't want to weaken the Iron Throne, that's Varys.  Littlefinger wants to advance his own agenda; sometimes that means having a weakened central authority, because his social climbing is reliant on providing "un-noble" services which result in reward within the chaos of war.  Sometimes it means strong central authority.

 

Yes, LF is more complex character than Varys.

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He wanted to kill Joffrey, there is no way he could predict Tyrion being accused of murder for certain.

 

Then why did he bring Penny and her brother? Just more humiliation for Tyrion? 

What did he predict? Oberyn who seeks revenge for Elia's children will be accused for posioning Tywin's grandson. Oberyn will be killed by Mountain in trial by combat. Tywin will get rid of all accusations from Dorne. Olenna will get her revenge for Willas Tyrell. I don't think so.

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

But LF wants Tyrion dead more because he is Sansa's husband.

I think Catspaw is also important. 

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4 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Yes, LF is more complex character than Varys.

He isn't.  He's a much simpler character.  He's greedy and vengeful and feels that he was wronged by the Tullys and Starks when they denied him Cat's hand.

Varys has a fascinating background, is motivated by something MUCH less selfish than Littlefinger, and both morally and narratively is spinning a much more interesting web.

 

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2 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

He isn't.  He's a much simpler character.  He's greedy and vengeful and feels that he was wronged by the Tullys and Starks when they denied him Cat's hand.

Varys has a fascinating background, is motivated by something MUCH less selfish than Littlefinger, and both morally and narratively is spinning a much more interesting web.

LF doesn't want simply to get revenge from Starks. He is Lord Paramount of Vale and he wants to "increase the number of kingdoms in his possession". He could be Aegon Conqueror if there is no zombi  invasion. What makes LF complex is his plans to use every opportunity to get what he wants. Varys who you claim to be more complex is afraid of him. Olenna trusts him. And he defeats Tyrion. Simple men cannot do all these things. 

I don't have any idea for Varys' end game. If he and Aegon VI are Blackfyre descendants then it makes him more selfish than LF. 

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7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All of the "plot holes" that people see in the story -- everything from Lady O trusting the man who got her into this jam in the first place to the utterly unpredictable twists and turns that the chalice took to end up in the exact spot for poisoning -- are all based on the completely unfounded assumption that the poison was in the wine and the target was Joffrey. The poison was in the pie and the target was Tyrion; there are no plot holes with that conclusion, except the ones the wine-lovers invent out of sheer stubbornness.

Absolutely. I just reread this & it seems so clear that the pie is poisoned & meant for Tyrion to me that, like I said before, I was shocked when I came to the forums & learned people believe it was in the wine & for Joffrey. That wine cup got moved all around the damn place & dumped out & refilled, there is no way a competent "poisoner" would have chosen that route 

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17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Absolutely. I just reread this & it seems so clear that the pie is poisoned & meant for Tyrion to me that, like I said before, I was shocked when I came to the forums & learned people believe it was in the wine & for Joffrey. That wine cup got moved all around the damn place & dumped out & refilled, there is no way a competent "poisoner" would have chosen that route 

Bless you, Queen of Love and Beauty. If people would just read the text and assess the facts first rather than form a conclusion and then select only the facts that support it, or invent entirely new ones on their own, there would be a whole lot less confusion about this and multiple other plot points.

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52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Bless you, Queen of Love and Beauty. If people would just read the text and assess the facts first rather than form a conclusion and then select only the facts that support it, or invent entirely new ones on their own, there would be a whole lot less confusion about this and multiple other plot points.

Absolutely. :cheers:

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