Angel Eyes

What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

122 posts in this topic

Pretty much instead of having Tyrion marry Sansa after finding about the Tyrells’ plans to marry Sansa to Willas, he has Tommen marry Sansa. Either way, they lock up the Key to the North.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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She was married to Tyrion because he was available and because Tywin had denied him Casterly Rock, Tommen was the crown prince which would make Sansa the queen after the death of Joffrey, which is the last thing that Tywin would want, especially since the terms of the alliance with the Tyrells demand that Margaery be the queen.

 

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22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Pretty much instead of having Tyrion marry Sansa after finding about the Tyrells’ plans to marry Sansa to Willas, he has Tommen marry Sansa. Either way, they lock up the Key to the North.

Then Tommen would have been the target for the poison at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

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17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Then Tommen would have been the target for the poison at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

I thought Joffrey was the target.

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While giving Tyrion the "key to the North" was a nice bonus, the main purpose of the marriage was to take Sansa off the marriage market, and in the least painful way possible.  Tywin probably figured he could get a nice deal for Tommen's hand, whereas nobody wanted Tyrion.  Hence the marriage.  Kill two birds with one stone.  Take Sansa off the market, and get a wife for Tyrion.

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46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Joffrey was the target.

No, the poison was in the pie, not the wine; ergo, Tyrion was the target, not Joffrey.

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45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, the poison was in the pie, not the wine; ergo, Tyrion was the target, not Joffrey.

Which means everyone was the target.

Prove it was in the pie.

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On 12/18/2017 at 6:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Pretty much instead of having Tyrion marry Sansa after finding about the Tyrells’ plans to marry Sansa to Willas, he has Tommen marry Sansa. Either way, they lock up the Key to the North.

Sansa was not seen by Tywin as the key to the North. Tywin saw her womb as the key. Whoever wed Sansa would have to produce a male heir to have a realistic chance of wresting Winterfell away from House Bolton. 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Joffrey was the target.

Yes he was, some people are just very upset that WoW isn't here yet and wile that time away by making up ridiculous theories and reciting the crackpot mantra: #EverythingIsTheOppositeOfWhatGRRMWroteOnThePage.

Let's get some funny-coloured kool aid and join in the fun.

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Getting back to the subject at hand, Sansa's marriage was a blocking move by Tywin, and he's not going to waste Tommen on that, when there are likely better opportunities available later.  It also would hopefully settle Tyrion down.  While Tyrion possibly getting the North would be nice, it isn't why he did it.  It was to keep the Tyrells out of the North.

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Tywin has a sort of God status in my opinion.  Sansa was actually a good marriage for anyone, particularly Tyrion, who had been declined when offered for marriage. (Please let it be in the books that Tywin refused to marry Elia to Jamie and offered Tyrion up instead!)  Tyrion was whining to have Casterly Rock and proved himself pretty useful as Hand of the King in Tywin's absence.   Sansa as a hostage was certainly one of the better marriages Tyrion could have been awarded and I think Tywin understood the difficulty in finding a marriage for Tyrion.   Sansa the hostage was perfect.  It was a brilliant move on Tywin's behalf--he weds his absurd son to a wealthy or at least prestigious House, furthering his family's influence ever more.   It was a move the Targs should have made a long time ago.  

There were a lot of pieces at play during the time and Tommen was just a boy.   Good thing it was played the way it was.   In light of Joffrey's untimely demise, Tommen in the pocket was a great way to maintain Tyrell alliance.  

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Yes he was, some people are just very upset that WoW isn't here yet and wile that time away by making up ridiculous theories and reciting the crackpot mantra: #EverythingIsTheOppositeOfWhatGRRMWroteOnThePage.

Let's get some funny-coloured kool aid and join in the fun.

If it’s the opposite, who do you trust? 

And I don’t drink kool aid.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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With the Tyrell's on the move Sansa needed to be wedded AND bedded asap. Tommen was not old enough to consummate the marriage and was also the heir to the Throne. He's a back up in case Joffrey went full blown insane and not even Tywin could control him anymore, or if Joff happened to accidently shoot himself in the face with his crossbow.

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa was not seen by Tywin as the key to the North. Tywin saw her womb as the key. Whoever wed Sansa would have to produce a male heir to have a realistic chance of wresting Winterfell away from House Bolton. 

Tywin expected the North to descend into civil war over the Bolton rule which would probably end in their demise and then come spring Tyrion and Sansa would arrive with Eddard Stark's grandson and then they would all kneel to swear fealty.

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I tended to think that Tywin's dream plan for the Seven Kingdoms went a bit like this;

Joffrey- King/Crownlands

Tommen - Lord of the Stormlands

Jaime - Lord of the West

Cersei - married to the Lord of the Reach Wyllas and having his children

Tyrion - Lord of the North through Sansa

Myrcella - Married to a Dornish prince

Gemma Lannister - Married to Lord of Riverun/Riverlands

Lancel Lannister - Lord of Darry/Riverlands

Basically Lannister blood ruling 3 other major kingdoms (Reach, Stormlands, North), his true line ruling Casterly Rock and the West. Lannisters having major influence in the Riverlands and some influence in Dorne. I imagine if he could he would have married Myrcella to Sweetrobin in the Vale instead to get some influence there.

It all fell to pieces bit by bit, but I think that was the master plan.

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20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Which means everyone was the target.

Prove it was in the pie.

Not the big pie, Tyrion's pie. The piece that was meant for Tyrion and Tyrion alone.

Proof: Read Cressen's death scene. Notice how Cressen looks into his cup and sees a tiny sip of normal-looking wine? Then he drinks, drops his cup, Mel says her one short sentence about the fire lord's power, and when Cressen tries to respond "the words caught in his throat." This whole sequence takes about five seconds, seven tops.

Now let's compare that to Joffrey. Joffrey drinks multiple chugs of wine that is so thoroughly poisoned it has turned purple. After the first few chugs, Margaery says her bit about Lord Buckler's toast, which itself is about a third longer than Mel's sentence. No reaction from Joffrey as yet. Joff then responds to Margy about Tyrion not eating his pie, grabs a handful of pie, utters another quip about Tyrion, and shoves it into his mouth. Now we are at least twice as long as Cressen's reaction time (and perhaps more, depending on how many chugs Joffrey took initially), and still no reaction from Joffrey.

Then Joffrey says, "See, it's good" and Tyrion notices a few flakes of pie crust and an ever so slight cough -- the first subtle hint that anything is wrong at all. At this point, Cressen was on the ground gasping for breath. Then Joff shoves another handful of pie into his gob and says, "Dry, though. Needs washing down." He takes a slug of wine, washing the contents of his mouth down his throat, and that is when we see the first violent cough.

Then Joffrey: "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof, kof, pig, Uncle. I want..." His words broke up in a fit of coughing., which is another way of saying the words caught in his throat.

So small amount of mildly poisoned wine vs. huge amount of deep purple poisoned wine. Which victim should have logically succumbed first? But then note that when Joff washes the poison pie down with wine, putting it in first contact with his throat, Joff is choking within five to seven seconds, just like Cressen.

But wait, there's more. Let's take a look at the logistics of this plan to kill the king and frame Tyrion in the process. In order to pull this off, they need the following to occur: Tyrion must have a reason to have his hands all over Joffrey's royal chalice, a wedding gift from the Tyrells that nobody but the bride, the groom and the server have any business touching, and then the chalice must be placed in such a way and at exactly the right time that the poisoner can drop the crystal into it without being seen by not one of the thousand guests that have it in plain sight. So they go about it in the following way:

1) they get Joffrey and Tyrion to argue over the dwarf joust

2) Joffrey then dumps his wine on Tyrion's head and names him cup-bearer

3) Joffrey places the chalice directly in front of Garlan, not a foot to the left nor a foot to the right, and then leaves it there for the pie ceremony.

I'll grant that the first is a reasonable assumption, but it strains credibility to think that they could count on this spat involving the chalice or that Tyrion would be named cup-bearer, and we throw all rationality out the window in thinking that they can count on Joffrey to basically hand the chalice to Garlan just before the ceremony. These are completely random, utterly unpredictable acts that would completely foil the plan if even one of them failed to occur.

So with the text describing a physically impossible conundrum between the two poisonings and a logistically impossible plan to poison the king, the only rational solution is that the poison was in the pie. And as you start to examine things even more closely, you'll see that the pie could be easily poisoned with no outside involvement of family members or trusted servants, poses virtually zero risk to Margaery, unlike the wine, and that Tyrion's death is also more in keeping with the true motivations of the principal plotters, not the imaginary ones.

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On 12/19/2017 at 3:12 PM, Livesundersink said:

She was married to Tyrion because he was available and because Tywin had denied him Casterly Rock, Tommen was the crown prince which would make Sansa the queen after the death of Joffrey, which is the last thing that Tywin would want, especially since the terms of the alliance with the Tyrells demand that Margaery be the queen.

 

Plus, Tommen is a Baratheon as far as Tywin knew.  Tommen is best saved for a more valuable match.  He wants a Lannister to inherit the north. 

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Hey John Suburbs

So the wine being "deep purple" does not mean it was poisoned.....it means it was a different kind of red wine(meaning a different grape)  that is a darker hue than the previous scene with cressan. 

For a real world example pour a glass of cabernet and a glass of pinot noir and put them side by side.....you will be able to tell the difference, the cab will be a deep,dark purple while the pinot will be almost opaque.

For an in book example take the many descriptions we have of arbor gold and compare them to the descriptions of the "ghiscari piss" that they make in slavers bay.

I do not think the hue of the wine is evidence in anyway of it being poisoned or not.

As for the rest....well it's interesting 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Back door hodor

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18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Not the big pie, Tyrion's pie. The piece that was meant for Tyrion and Tyrion alone.

Proof: Read Cressen's death scene. Notice how Cressen looks into his cup and sees a tiny sip of normal-looking wine? Then he drinks, drops his cup, Mel says her one short sentence about the fire lord's power, and when Cressen tries to respond "the words caught in his throat." This whole sequence takes about five seconds, seven tops.

Now let's compare that to Joffrey. Joffrey drinks multiple chugs of wine that is so thoroughly poisoned it has turned purple. After the first few chugs, Margaery says her bit about Lord Buckler's toast, which itself is about a third longer than Mel's sentence. No reaction from Joffrey as yet. Joff then responds to Margy about Tyrion not eating his pie, grabs a handful of pie, utters another quip about Tyrion, and shoves it into his mouth. Now we are at least twice as long as Cressen's reaction time (and perhaps more, depending on how many chugs Joffrey took initially), and still no reaction from Joffrey.

Then Joffrey says, "See, it's good" and Tyrion notices a few flakes of pie crust and an ever so slight cough -- the first subtle hint that anything is wrong at all. At this point, Cressen was on the ground gasping for breath. Then Joff shoves another handful of pie into his gob and says, "Dry, though. Needs washing down." He takes a slug of wine, washing the contents of his mouth down his throat, and that is when we see the first violent cough.

Then Joffrey: "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof, kof, pig, Uncle. I want..." His words broke up in a fit of coughing., which is another way of saying the words caught in his throat.

So small amount of mildly poisoned wine vs. huge amount of deep purple poisoned wine. Which victim should have logically succumbed first? But then note that when Joff washes the poison pie down with wine, putting it in first contact with his throat, Joff is choking within five to seven seconds, just like Cressen.

But wait, there's more. Let's take a look at the logistics of this plan to kill the king and frame Tyrion in the process. In order to pull this off, they need the following to occur: Tyrion must have a reason to have his hands all over Joffrey's royal chalice, a wedding gift from the Tyrells that nobody but the bride, the groom and the server have any business touching, and then the chalice must be placed in such a way and at exactly the right time that the poisoner can drop the crystal into it without being seen by not one of the thousand guests that have it in plain sight. So they go about it in the following way:

1) they get Joffrey and Tyrion to argue over the dwarf joust

2) Joffrey then dumps his wine on Tyrion's head and names him cup-bearer

3) Joffrey places the chalice directly in front of Garlan, not a foot to the left nor a foot to the right, and then leaves it there for the pie ceremony.

I'll grant that the first is a reasonable assumption, but it strains credibility to think that they could count on this spat involving the chalice or that Tyrion would be named cup-bearer, and we throw all rationality out the window in thinking that they can count on Joffrey to basically hand the chalice to Garlan just before the ceremony. These are completely random, utterly unpredictable acts that would completely foil the plan if even one of them failed to occur.

So with the text describing a physically impossible conundrum between the two poisonings and a logistically impossible plan to poison the king, the only rational solution is that the poison was in the pie. And as you start to examine things even more closely, you'll see that the pie could be easily poisoned with no outside involvement of family members or trusted servants, poses virtually zero risk to Margaery, unlike the wine, and that Tyrion's death is also more in keeping with the true motivations of the principal plotters, not the imaginary ones.

We know there are different forms and kinds of poisons in Westeros with different effects. Again with people comparing two totally different issues and imply that George wrote them as comparisons to one another. I don't think that's the case. Joffrey was the target and it was his wine. I'll make it clear why I believe so in a second. And what motivation do these supposed principal plotters have to kill off Tyrion, and whom are these principal plotters you're referring to? Joffrey spitting out small pie crusts means nothing, he was talking with his mouth full, anyone knows that if you talk with a mouth full of food, which is rude to do anyway but thats neither here nor there, you're going to be spitting out some food particles. Joffrey never has a "huge amount of deep purple wine" I'll get into this in a second. And its never stated in that Tyrion chapter that Joffrey placed the chalice directly in front of Ser Garlan, not once. And if I'm not mistaken, Ser Garlan was seated at the far right end with his wife, closer to Tyrion than Joffrey, which is why the three (Tyrion, Lady Leonette & Ser Garlan) are able to speak to each other in low tones and during Galyeons singing.

 

You say it was the pie and meant for Tyrion, yet all Margarey says is, "Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well.." That isn't very long dialogue. Ser Addam never ends up actually making the toast because of Joffreys interactions with Tyrion, he has no wine at this point. He bullies Tyrion into being his cupbearer, he kicks the cup under Tyrion's legs, Tyrion has to get under the table and find the chalice, which is the point Cersei and others claim Tyrion had the chance to poison the chalice. He forces Tyrion to kneel and hand him the cup, which Tyrion does, Joffrey then places the cup on the table and this long exchange occurs with the pie, Joffrey first wanting to use Widows Wail to open the pie, instead he's given Ice from Ser Ilyn and uses this to cut the pie, he and Margaery. Tyrions pie is then placed infront of him by the serving man, neither he nor Sansa are too excited or have much of an appetite, they try to leave. Joffrey begins bullying Tyrion again, Tyrion again gets the chalice, which for minutes now I'm assuming has been sitting on the table, Joffrey chugs and this is when we're told of the purple coloring running down his chin. All Margaery says is for her and Joffrey to return to their places for Lord Bucklers toast, which also never happens because of Joffreys bullying of Tyrion. Joffrey then grabs a fistful of Tyrions pie, and eats it. Why would he eat a pie that he knew was poisoned? And I'm assuming these principle plotters would be those within the court, it's highly unlikely they'd plan Tyrions murder and not let Joffrey know about it, someone who despises his uncle. Tywin clearly has plans for Tyrion to become Warden of The North and Lord of Winterfell, what would be the motivation for murdering Tyrion, again? Joffrey only coughs once after eating the fistful of Tyrions pie. He takes another, and doesn't cough, talks clearly when he says "dry though, needs some washing down." And the moment he drinks the wine again he coughs again more violently, with each swallow of the wine he coughs more violently, George writes that clearly. Then the same wine that is described as purple running down his chin, is now spilled and its described as being dark red as its flowing and spreading out  on the floor. Joffrey keels over, claws at the flesh on his throat so much as making gouges into the flesh of his neck. His face gets darker as people are trying to help, he's reaching or pointing toward Tyrion, whom is thinking if the boy is begging for his forgiveness of him or calling for his help. At this point, Tyrion begins to feel for a second, thinking the boy is only thirteen. He picks up the chalice, and notices that there's still a half inch of purple "wine" in the cup. Again, when the wine flows it's described as being dark red, yet in two instances this purple liquid is observed within this chalice. Tyrion makes the bad decision of pouring the remaining purple "wine" onto the floor. In the next chapter it's made evident that it wasn't the pie. But indeed poison which was stored into the little stones of Sansa's hair net, which Ser Dontos told her near the beginning of the book, that she had to wear on this specific occasion of Joffreys wedding day. Of course Dontos tries to convince Sansa that this isn't the case, claiming it was "pie, silver and stones, and magic", and Sansa doesn't believe him. Dontos informs her that Tyrion was arrested because" she thinks he did it", clearly implying that he actually does know whom poisoned boy King Joffrey. Littlefinger makes it clear and pretty obvious that he was behind the poisoning of Joffrey. "Why should I wish him dead? Littlefinger shrugged. I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes, the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that Sansa, when you come to play the game." "What...What game?" "The only game. The Game Of Thrones."

 

Littlefinger and George makes this clear that Joffrey was the target, not Tyrion. The purple "wine" sentences make clear that it was poison in the wine, not the pie. Littlefinger essentially says he had the perfect opportunity, and the perfect motive to have Joffrey removed and that motive being nothing, it leaves no suspicion on him. He basically carried out the perfect murder.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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On 19/12/2017 at 9:38 PM, John Suburbs said:

Then Tommen would have been the target for the poison at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

Not being funny, but this seems like a rather brazen attempt to crowbar your theory into an entirely separate discussion. I don't tend to mind things go off on a tangent organically out of a discussion, but it's kind of annoying when one's pretty much hijacked two comments in, and the thread becomes filled up with an unrelated subject, going over arguments that have been had several times before. 

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