Do the Targaryens deserve the throne back?

[UFT]

i never really agreed with how robert jacked it from viserys and dany. 

they had nothing to do with the reasons for the rebellion. i mean just imagine if someone came into your house, dealt with your abusive dad, but then said "aaand now run for it because your stuff is mine now and you're dead too". what? is this how it works? and its not like robert was some great statesman who truly believed he could run the place better. 

they created the damn thing. established kingsguard etc. i have always been a proponent of going back to independence, but if thats not an option, then give the dragonlords their stuff back. put yourself in child viserys shoes. or young dany. that should be all you need. narrow it down all the way to simply having something precious to you stolen from you and you want it back. a toy, a book, a heirloom, a bank account. shouldn't you have it back? and justified in wanting it back? i think this is a trope we usually embrace in fiction, that the sympathy always goes to the exiled family who had their stuff jacked from them,.

[The Fattest Leech]

Even Daenerys realizes that her father lost the throne.

• As they rode past the stakes and pits that surrounded the eunuch encampment, Dany could hear Grey Worm and his sergeants running one company through a series of drills with shield, shortsword, and heavy spear. Another company was bathing in the sea, clad only in white linen breechclouts. The eunuchs were very clean, she had noticed. Some of her sellswords smelled as if they had not washed or changed their clothes since her father lost the Iron Throne, but the Unsullied bathed each evening, even if they'd marched all day. When no water was available they cleansed themselves with sand, the Dothraki way.

And who cares? The throne is a sign of corruption and idol worship and forced submission (bow or burn). It probably won't even be standing by story's end.

• This Iron Throne is massive. Ugly. Assymetric. It’s a throne made by blacksmiths hammering together half-melted, broken, twisted swords, wrenched from the hands of dead men or yielded up by defeated foes… a symbol of conquest…”https://www.tor.com/2013/07/09/george-r-r-martin-real-iron-throne-illustration/

[Lord Varys]

Toppling Aerys was pretty much justified. But just as Aegon III and Jaehaera had nothing to do with the Dance, Viserys, Rhaella, Daenerys, and Rhaegar's children had nothing to do with Aerys' madness or Rhaegar's crimes.

They should have crowned one of the Targaryen heirs after Aerys and Rhaegar had been killed, just as they crowned another Targaryen pretender after the deaths of Maegor the Cruel and Aegon II, respectively.

Leading a successful rebellion against a king doesn't make you king in medieval hereditary monarchy. Robert could have played the Cromwell card, abolishing the monarchy, but having him usurp the throne makes him, you know, a usurper as long there are legitimate heirs around.

And it is not that they go by 'conquest' there. Robert is the great-grandson of Aegon V, and was (likely) next in line to the Iron Throne after Viserys III.

If Robert had been just some dude with no Targaryen blood whatsoever he could have slain Rhaegar a thousand times at the Trident - the lords wouldn't submitted to him.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

The Throne is damaged goods now anyway. It's heavily in debt to a foreign bank and the capital literally smells like excrement. A portion of the Westerosi lands are war torn and short of food because of the wars. On top of it all it's now haunted by ice zombies and is about to go through a horrible winter.

Whoever ends up with it has a real fixer-upper on their hands. 

 

[Angel Eyes]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Toppling Aerys was pretty much justified. But just as Aegon III and Jaehaera had nothing to do with the Dance, Viserys, Rhaella, Daenerys, and Rhaegar's children had nothing to do with Aerys' madness or Rhaegar's crimes.

They should have crowned one of the Targaryen heirs after Aerys and Rhaegar had been killed, just as they crowned another Targaryen pretender after the deaths of Maegor the Cruel and Aegon II, respectively.

Leading a successful rebellion against a king doesn't make you king in medieval hereditary monarchy. Robert could have played the Cromwell card, abolishing the monarchy, but having him usurp the throne makes him, you know, a usurper as long there are legitimate heirs around.

And it is not that they go by 'conquest' there. Robert is the great-grandson of Aegon V, and was (likely) next in line to the Iron Throne after Viserys III.

If Robert had been just some dude with no Targaryen blood whatsoever he could have slain Rhaegar a thousand times at the Trident - the lords wouldn't submitted to him.

Well, the line of succession after Rhaegar got ruby-forded:

Aegon son of Rhaegar

Viserys

Robert, descended from Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V

Stannis, see above

Renly, see Robert

Descendants of Daella Targaryen, elder daughter of Maekar I

Descendants of Rhae Targaryen, younger daughter of Maekar I

[Damsel in Distress]

On 12/18/2017 at 6:58 PM, UFT said:

i never really agreed with how robert jacked it from viserys and dany. 

they had nothing to do with the reasons for the rebellion. i mean just imagine if someone came into your house, dealt with your abusive dad, but then said "aaand now run for it because your stuff is mine now and you're dead too". what? is this how it works? and its not like robert was some great statesman who truly believed he could run the place better. 

they created the damn thing. established kingsguard etc. i have always been a proponent of going back to independence, but if thats not an option, then give the dragonlords their stuff back. put yourself in child viserys shoes. or young dany. that should be all you need. narrow it down all the way to simply having something precious to you stolen from you and you want it back. a toy, a book, a heirloom, a bank account. shouldn't you have it back? and justified in wanting it back? i think this is a trope we usually embrace in fiction, that the sympathy always goes to the exiled family who had their stuff jacked from them,.

I want Daenerys on the iron throne and rule over Westeros.

[Lion of the West]

The only way that the Targaryens can have the Iron Throne is through conquest. The Baratheons won the throne fair and square and if the Targaryens want it, they'll have to fight for it and then keep it. That's how things work.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Nobody "deserves" to have a throne. 

[Stormking902]

Danny needs to act like a dragon and take the throne with fire and blood..........

[Lucius Lovejoy]

40 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Nobody "deserves" to have a throne. 

AMEN.  No one deserves it.  Whether or not they'll reclaim it and would the realm be better off if they did is an entirely different question, however.  I am not a fan of another Targaryen dynasty.

[Damsel in Distress]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

The only way that the Targaryens can have the Iron Throne is through conquest. The Baratheons won the throne fair and square and if the Targaryens want it, they'll have to fight for it and then keep it. That's how things work.

I don't think the Baratheons have the right to rule.  The Targaryens built the kingdom and wrote the laws.  By the laws, only the Targaryens have the right to rule those lands and the people.  Only a Targaryen monarch can change the law.  The land belonged to them.  Stealing the throne does not make it yours, and that is what Robert did.

I don't expect the "Baratheons" (Tommen and Cersei) to give up the throne.  I am expecting a fight.  I really, really want Dany to slow-roast all of the Baratheons and Starks.  That will not happen if they give up the throne willingly.  A fight that results in the destruction of those two houses is one of the events that I look forward to and hope to read happen.

[Damsel in Distress]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Nobody "deserves" to have a throne. 

The Targaryens built the kingdom.  They deserve that throne.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens built the kingdom.  They deserve that throne. They lost. They deserve shit. Their righ rested in being the strongest

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Of the current contenders to the Throne who stand any chance of winning the game in the near future, Dany would seem to be the best candidate for an open minded monarch with policies based on the well being of her subjects and some kind of political or social reforms..

Her time in Slaver's Bay, while certainly not perfect, does show a level of kindness and consideration from the small folk that we have yet to see from Cersei, Aegon, Euron, the Tyrells or even Stannis, far off in the North as he is.

Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon certainly pose a risk to the small folk, but should the Others and armies of the dead invade they would likely provide superior firepower to any of the other contenders' respective armies.

If Dany continues to be guided by genuinely decent people like Barristan, as well as more tactically minded tutors like possible Tyrion then she could grow to be a Jaehaerys style ruler, therefore I would say a Targaryen line headed by the Mother of Dragons would certainly be deserving of some form of power in Westeros, be it an Iron Throne or some new political system.

[UFT]

so basically fair and square means "hey kid i just shot your abusive dad. buuut now im going to kill you too and take your house. ISNT THAT FUN?"

yeah  baratheons are real fair guys....

also if this whole might makes right mentality holds true why is this forum so goddamn anti renly? if you can take it by force, you can lose it again by force and stannis has no real argument to back him being anti renly. he should have been like "well shit...when you put it like that renly i guess your right. i cant beat you in the field so...guess you can have it".

 

[kissdbyfire]

Targ, Stark, Baratheon, whatever. It don't matter. It;s not about the surname, it's about the individual. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, UFT said:

so basically fair and square means "hey kid i just shot your abusive dad. buuut now im going to kill you too and take your house. ISNT THAT FUN?"

yeah  baratheons are real fair guys....

also if this whole might makes right mentality holds true why is this forum so goddamn anti renly? if you can take it by force, you can lose it again by force and stannis has no real argument to back him being anti renly. he should have been like "well shit...when you put it like that renly i guess your right. i cant beat you in the field so...guess you can have it".

 

Is this forum anti-Renly? I can't say that I ever picked up on that... but l can tell you why I don't really care for him. - based  only on what we know of/about him - He is vain,shallow, conceited, and untrustworthy.

 

[Anck Su Namun]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

That logic would also apply to the Starks.  The Starks lost.  They don't deserve the north and they don't deserve Winterfell.  Roose Bolton and Walder Frey won and these two deserve all of the lands that they got.  Nobody ever said you had to win fair and square.  Winning is winning.  Victory is all according to people who believe in the right of conquest.  Walder was victorious over Robb and the Tullys, so Riverrun belongs to him by rights if we go with your way of thinking.  Roose outsmarted and defeated the Starks, so if we go with your line of thinking, the Boltons have complete rights to the north and to Winterfell.  The only thing the remaining Starks have any rights to is their own body odor.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

The best ruler for the Kingdom is probably some minor noble with an IQ of 160, but will never have the chance to rule because he doesn't have an army.

[Lion of the West]

9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I don't think the Baratheons have the right to rule.  The Targaryens built the kingdom and wrote the laws.  By the laws, only the Targaryens have the right to rule those lands and the people.  Only a Targaryen monarch can change the law.  The land belonged to them.  Stealing the throne does not make it yours, and that is what Robert did.

I don't expect the "Baratheons" (Tommen and Cersei) to give up the throne.  I am expecting a fight.  I really, really want Dany to slow-roast all of the Baratheons and Starks.  That will not happen if they give up the throne willingly.  A fight that results in the destruction of those two houses is one of the events that I look forward to and hope to read happen.

And I think the Baratheons do have a right to rule. The Targaryen wrote many laws but they certainly never got it that no one but a Targaryen could rule the realm. And if they did write such a law its another law of their madness. The throne ultimately belongs to the man or woman whom the realms does homage to. Robert won his throne like Aegon the Dragon won his, by force of arms.

I understand you want the Baratheons gone but personally I'm more exicted to see Daneaerys fail utterly and then see the Targaryens rip each other apart between Jon Snow and Danaerys in a new Dance of the Dragons. Dragon's blood is a sweet sight.

5 hours ago, UFT said:

so basically fair and square means "hey kid i just shot your abusive dad. buuut now im going to kill you too and take your house. ISNT THAT FUN?"

yeah  baratheons are real fair guys....

also if this whole might makes right mentality holds true why is this forum so goddamn anti renly? if you can take it by force, you can lose it again by force and stannis has no real argument to back him being anti renly. he should have been like "well shit...when you put it like that renly i guess your right. i cant beat you in the field so...guess you can have it".

"Fair and square" means that no trickery or shenanigans were involved. Aerys and the rebels fought a war, Aerys lost that war which he provoked out of base fear and mindless paranoia, and then Robert was hailed as the king. Fair and square.

When the Targaryens gets to extinguish Houses and cast whatever survivors there might be into poverty or give away as trophies to the Dragon's friends, I feel no empathy for the Dragons when the tables are turned on them.The Targaryens dealt harshly with their enemies so don't come crying to me when their enemies deals harshly with them.