The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

I said early on in the first thread, but feel it has been lost; I think they lost a natural opportunity to allow Leia to go out gracefully.  With minimal reshoots and a slight story change, Leia could/should have switched places with Holdo for the suicide run.  Heck, you could even take the Luke/Leia scene in the rebel base and with a bit of CGI change it to where the conversation is happening on the deck of the cruiser.   

As it stands, now the only possible exit I can see for General Organa is the opening crawl of Ep IX:  "Tragedy has struck... General Organa has died."

Maybe they could have killed off Leia, but then Holdo would have been totally pointless, if Leia took her place, and that would have been insulting to Laura Dern. Not to mention that with Luke going out (they weren't going to change that) it would have been too much loss in one movie. I'm okay with their decision to not re-shoot and leave Leia alive. How things ended made me even more sad that we won't have Carrie Fisher in the next one. Leia is a character who has suffered so much loss throughout the movies, yet always found the way to keep going. It would have been interesting to see what they would have done with the character had Fisher still been with us.

For Ep. IX, I would like to believe they won't go the Tarkin route too much; maybe just one brief CGI appearance, and she'll probably look better than young Leia in Rogue One. I don't think they'll kill her off. In the opening crawl, they could have a Leia Organa has gone to rally old allies, while the rest of the band do their own thing against the First Order. Then at the end she appears with a fleet of ships, brings the smackdown on the FO, and the character can be left alive, quietly retired, because after IX, the story should not need Leia any more.

And on the subject of who should have piloted the kamikaze run, I saw online a lot of people saying it should have been Akbar, who was so unceremoniously killed off. However, it would have made the Poe plot even dumber. It kinda made sense that Poe didn't trust Holdo, because he had never met her, only knew her by reputation. But Poe to mutiny against Akbar would have been ridiculous. And probably the conflict scenes between them would have looked a bit silly.

[Werthead]

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The bad lip read guys are awesome. I, too, did not get the acronym of the words until I saw it in the comments. I would love to see Hammill's reaction to this.

Hamil's a big fan of BLR. He played Han Solo in their Force Awakens video.

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She was 5: that's plenty young enough for her to mix up memories or get a wishful imagining, that her parents went away and one day they'll come back, mixed up with a reality that probably nobody told her about anyway.

 

I can clearly remember my dad's awful Fiat Strada we used to roll around in before he got rid of it when I was 5. I'm pretty sure someone a hell of a lot closer to that age (Daisy Ridley was 21 when they filmed those scenes, 23 when the movie came out so I'd assume that Rey is supposed to be the same age) would remember if their parents had a starship or not at the same age.

[mormont]

Wert: I, on the other hand, have very few clear memories from that age and those that I have have sometimes proven to be mixed up. Heck, even later memories from my childhood have. We know, from memory research, that isn't uncommon. 

Anecdata proves little one way or the other, I suppose, but the point is that this one brief shot isn't really a huge obstacle.

[Astromech]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

The little boy at the end is a hidden Skywalker. Ben Solo's bastard child. 

And he will betray his teacher Rey and turn to the Dark Side.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

One thing I noticed is that the throne room is burning after Rey and Ren have killed the guards, but before the ramming. I couldn’t work out why. Did the fight really cause that much damage to the room? It’s like an editing mistake and it’s meant to take place after the crash, except Rey can see the transports being fired on through the monitor.

[divica]

http://collider.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-problems-fandom-menace/#rey-kylo-ren-poe-finn-rose

The last jedi is the fandom menace!

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

One thing I noticed is that the throne room is burning after Rey and Ren have killed the guards, but before the ramming. I couldn’t work out why. Did the fight really cause that much damage to the room? It’s like an editing mistake and it’s meant to take place after the crash, except Rey can see the transports being fired on through the monitor.

I spotted an editing mistake in the scene where Rose meets Finn. He is fiddling with his pack outside the pod door, she interrupts him, but when he tries to block her view, we see the pack inside the pod.

[dog-days]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but a bloke called Todd VanDerWerff has written a thoughtful article about the backlash to TLJ over on vox.com.

[Astromech]

37 minutes ago, Stannis Eats No Peaches said:

One thing I noticed is that the throne room is burning after Rey and Ren have killed the guards, but before the ramming. I couldn’t work out why. Did the fight really cause that much damage to the room? It’s like an editing mistake and it’s meant to take place after the crash, except Rey can see the transports being fired on through the monitor.

Didn't Ren's lightsaber start that fire during the fight? I remember his lightsaber going through the wall. Not sure if that red screen is some cheap sort of wallpaper.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

19 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Didn't Ren's lightsaber start that fire during the fight? I remember his lightsaber going through the wall. Not sure if that red screen is some cheap sort of wallpaper.

Maybe, but there are embers falling from the ceiling in the part where he’s trying to convince Rey to join him.

It’s thematically appropriate imagery, but I can’t think of a hard reason for it.

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Okay, I think I have finally pinpointed what has me so conflicted and upset. And it's the notion that I, as an intelligent open-minded older fan, am being preached down to by hypocrites who are not practicing what they are preaching. And very talented ones at that. 

 

The two themes that keep running through TLJ are, "Let the past die," and "there are no heroes, there's just you and me." I'll shelve the second b/c the first is more important. Here's the central conflict for me.  

People are busy telling other fans that we have to move on, the Skywalker Saga is over, we need new story-lines, characters who are unconnected etc. But if that's so, why were the Big Three  re-introduced in the first place? Why didn't we start out with new story-lines and characters, instead of rehashing the same tired old OT plot-lines? And why, in spite of everything the film-makers  try to do, do we care more about the plot-lines of old characters (Luke) and those connected to them (Ren, possibly Rey) then we do about Finn, Poe, Rose etc. 

 

If you really want the past to die, then drop the Force from SW. There I said it. No more lightsabers.  No more anything connected with The Force. Let SW be all about action sequences with blasters and spaceships and Marvel humor. Jedi should be a swear word. 

 

For me, the "past died" when I walked out of the theater in 2005 after ROTS. We saw the end of the Skywalker Saga, end of story, closure, let's move on. I was one of the Origional Generation who saw SW in 197 when I was 7, grew up with the OT, loved the Prequels in spiteof their flaws (there I said it. I'll discuss why  in another post, but in a nutshell I applauded Lucas's attempting to take risks even if the results were flawed.  Yes, I LOVED his use of CG to create the Republic at its height, a splash of color and spectacle, it wasn't supposed to be "used universe" back then, it had to contrast strongly with the run-down state of the galaxy in eps 4-6 when the Empire was plundering rescources to feed its war machine. This is one example.)

When I heard that the Big Three were coming back I was intensely disappointed and skeptical  about what they could possibly do with them, since neither Lucas's ideas or any of the EU plotlines could be used. (Ah, but we see that wasn't true. The new trilogy so far is just a hash of EU plot-lines and characters under different names.) And now that i know...well. 

For me, what is happening now is the same as if the folks behind Star Trek: the Next Generation in the 90's, would have found it necessary to begin their all-new Saga with an extended Prologue of a whole Season in which the plot-lines revolved around the crew of the origional Enterprise were all  killed off, with their onscreen deaths absolutely necessary to launch the new franchise. Maybe they were dead prior to in the '-80 films but I still don't see WHY it is so necessary. Why couldn't their OT legacies have rested in peace? 

 

And this is where the notion of corporate motives and the current backdrop of the continuing hyper-consolidation of Hollywood making ever-bigger instant profit streams for those new corporate monster megoliths absolutely necessary comes into play, when it comes to the possibility  of really new and origional story-telling. The more they keep telling us that that things will be different, the more they stay the same. And that's to appease share-holders and guarantee those fat Christmas bonuses. 

 

For me, "the past" isn't dying right now so much as it is being murdered. "The past" died peacefully in 2005, with the Skywalker Saga over, put to bed, end of story, fini. Now, we're  being preached down to, told to :"Let the past die" while we watch numerous jumbled and conflicting story-lines and motives murder, wholesale, if not make a jumbled hash of, those characters and those connected with them in an attempt to get the grousers to just GET OVER IT.  But it was Disney?Lucasfilm that introduced this whole sorry mess by bringing us back to "the past" in the first place. the question remains: WHY? The question has become not, "What do the fans want?" but "What does Disney want?" What will keep the shareholders happy? More of the same, and if you think I'm crazy...

 

It's clear that there is no continuity, no clear notion of exactly where to go next. The folks at Disney/Lucasfilm have forgotten that ever since 1994 there has been a whole generation of fans that grew up in the world of the EU, whether it was books, comics, games, TV etc, where all authors/writers had to check where they were in the canon and not contradict themselves. Fans who never thought to question contraditions in the OT in the yrs when it was new look back and find its flaws now in that regard. So why do the films not have to follow those rules as well? Why is there no over-arching vision? 

 

Again I ask: Why was all this necessary in the first place? 

 

While if you think that the next trilogy WON'T involve a new Jedi  Order, that some stroylines will always be there, you're nuts. It reminds me (to use a historical metaphor, forgive me) of the time when HenryVIII had the corpse of the Archbishop of Canterbury dug up  and "put on trial for heresy" in a publicity stunt against Catholicism (among many other reasons.) never mind that he was in his "fat and bitter" period, he'd just smashed the Catholic Church in England and dissolved the monasteries and taken their wealth. Okay that was a horrible metaphor. But really. 

 

 

 

[Lady Of The Crossbow Inn]

Oh and one more thing. Star Wars needs a new composer and soon. JW is pushing 90 and while he's still good, the fact remains that there has only been one new real motif introduced in these films, that of Rey's Theme at the end of TFA, we only heard it once briefly during a scene on the island. I don't know about you but that gave me the CHILLS at the end of TFA, it made Luke's re-introduction suitably epic and I was expecting to hear it more in TLJ.

Or the new Luke needed a darker theme, something that needed to musically define this new version of him that could merge into the"Binary Sunset" at the end, another musical opportunity wasted.There was some great choral work  during a few key moments, but the second time seeing it it began to irritate me how JW swung back into his '80's themes for certain key moments and it was painfully clear that even the Prequel music was tons better. Nothing yet on the order of "Duel Of the Fates" or "Across The Stars" here. Rose at least needed a theme, something cheery, light and playful. She was crying out for one. Finn should have one as well. Poe's a tough musical nut to crack, but something jaunty and martial for him.Where were the new motifs? above all, SW should always be saturated with music, Steiner or Korngold-style. At the very least, great music would cover up weak scenes! This is not Williams's fault per se, its just that he's very old and no matter  how brilliant you are, you can't be in yr '80's what you were even 10 yrs younger. 

 Yes, JW is sacred to SW, in fact it could be argued that it wouldn't exist without him. But IMO he should retire. Who do you think the composer for the new trilogy should be? 

[Ran]

Add in the Rogue One leads into ANH, the Solo film is filming, an Obi-wan Kenobi film is in the works, a Boba Fett film was at one time planned, Star Wars Rebels fills in time is another prequel -- this "let the past die" stuff is cynicism. I think people embracing Ren's claims about it as if it's a manifesto from Johnson are grabbing the wrong end of the stick.  Yoda's remark about the place of the past is more accurate -- the new films have to outgrow the past, but they come from the past as well, are founded on it, and will always be an inedilble part of future films.

I expect that Nathan Johnson -- Rian's cousin, and his collaborator on Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and Looper -- will be in the running for scoring Johnson's trilogy.

I don't know when I'll stop feeling like I need to see these films in theatres. I'll see the last of this trilogy, and maybe Solo, but after that I'll probably wait for them on disc or TV.

[Darth Richard II]

There were at least 3 new themes introduced in TFA and Rose had her own theme that played prominently in RLJ. Also Rey's theme definitely played more than once. I'm on my phone else I'd type an entire page about motifs and how John Williams is my personal God.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh regarding gravity and ep 3, in the opening the ship they are on loses engines or something and starts to tilt and everything on the ship tilts too. I guess it's not gravity in space but it just makes so little sense, even for Star Wars.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

Oh and one more thing. Star Wars needs a new composer and soon. JW is pushing 90 and while he's still good, the fact remains that there has only been one new real motif introduced in these films, that of Rey's Theme at the end of TFA, we only heard it once briefly during a scene on the island. There was some great choirs during a few key moments, but the second time seeing it it began to irritate me how JW swung back into his '80's themes for certain key moments and it was painfully clear that even the Prequel music was tons better. Nothing yet on the order of "Duel Of the Fates" or "Across The Stars" here. Rose at least needed a theme, something cheery, light and playful. She was crying out for one. Finn should have one as well. Poe's a tought musical nut to crack, but something jaunty and martial for him.Where were the new motifs? above all, SW should always be saturated with music, Steiner or Korngold-style. At the very least, great music would cover up weak scenes! 

 Yes, JW is sacred to SW, in fact it could be argued that it wouldn't exist without him. But IMO he should retire. Who do you think the composer for the new trilogy should be? 

March of the Resistance, though arguably the good guys' response to the Imperial March, is also a very good new theme.

Michael Giacchino composed the music for Rogue One, and it was tight schedule from I heard, and I thought he did a good job, though of course he put a lot of the old SW themes in it. And considering he has often worked on JJ's films, he might be a leading candidate. He isn't my favorite composer, though, so I wouldn't pick him.

Not Hans Zimmer, for sure. He's great, but his style wouldn't fit, unless they make a really dark Star Wars film, or one bordering on cyberpunk.

Alan Silvestri is a power name, with great range of styles. I would pick him, or if going with younger composers, Brian Tyler.

[polishgenius]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

unless they make a really dark Star Wars film, or one bordering on cyberpunk.

 Zimmer has plenty of experience doing more traditional, upbeat, orchestral stuff. I dunno if he'd be the ideal choice for SW, but he's not gonna be going to be sticking a Joker theme in as Kylo's new motif.

 

Bet Ramin Djawadi could do a job. He's one of the most interesting composers working the screen today.
 

[Darth Richard II]

Hans Zimmer is the anti christ.

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hans Zimmer is the anti christ.

Apart from trying to deny credit to others involved in the Inception soundtrack, what's he done?

[House Balstroko]

Let me weigh in on the issue. The biggest problem the LJ faces is how it blatantly ignores what was set up in FA.

-Rey’s heritage was heavily hinted at. How is it that a person who had no formal training in lightsaber combat was able to best Kylo? I always found that disturbing in FA, but brushed it off with the expectation that it would be resolved here. Watching the previous movie makes it painfully obvious that Rey’s parentage was going to play a large role. Star Wars has never given us a truly democratic approach to the Force (midichlorians show just how special some candidates are) therefore family ties are a significant factor. 

-Luke’s arc completely contradicts what was established in FA. He went into exile following the defeat of the Jedi and gave R2 a map showing the coordinates of the planet he went to. In LJ, it turns out he doesn’t want to be found and went there to die. This is probably the worst contradiction.

-Leia’s sendoff doesn’t work at all considering that all the scenes were shot before Carrie passed away. That makes her flight through space all the worse because it is devoid of any emotional bond. If they didn’t want to kill of the characters, they should have looked to Fast 7 as an example of how to do a powerful send off without compromising the integrity of the character.

-What happened to the Knights of Ren?

-Yoda setting a tree on fire. When did Force ghosts gain the ability to interact with the material world? Why for that matter, did Obi -Wan and Anakin not show up? Both are far more important to Luke than Yoda.

-Killing off Snoke was a terrible idea. Once again FA, shows up to be an important background player. Who is this guy? Plagueis? You don’t just build up the big bad and then take him out in the most idiotic way possible. 

-How is the First Order so powerful? It was established that they only represent a small fraction of what the Empire used to be and they had just lost Starkiller Base. What happened to the New Republic for that matter? They had only lost their capital, but would still be a functioning order. 

I didn’t hate the movie, but found it to be underwhelming. It’s obvious that Johnson wanted to make his own movie, regardless of how it ties in to the FA. I appreciate the fact that he took some risks, but a lot of them were poorly implemented.