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Is Jon Snow fit to command?


Varysblackfyre321

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Look,  I like Jon.

But, so far his tenure as LC has been lacking to say the least.

He got elected through Aemon and Sam playing politics and leaning on the right men to vote(Sam also was the one who counted the votes along with the half-blind Aemon btw), yet when getting in his position he does very little to try actually build up connections within the brotherhood, sending the few loyal companions he had away.

He doesn't even try to smooth over relations a little with the establishment of the watch by simply taking on a nobleman as his steward.

 

He pushes and pushes his radical agenda of allowing the free folk in and allow them to say the vows ok I get that they need men but promoting leathers (whose a great warrior) as master at arms so quickly, is bad call.

He's completely stubborn with any discussion on allowing the wildlings in even though,the actual ability to actually feed them has been stretched to its limits.

I get he doesn't want the NK to have more soldiers, but honestly, if the people at the wall can't fend off a attack if they've been starved so bad , a few more zombie soldiers won't make a difference.

Sending good able men on rescue missions was insane.

The most ludicrous thing he did was try to save Arya.

He allowed his emotions to get the better of him and as a result the watch was forced to either to support Jon's insane plan to lead a wildling charge against Ramsey or put him down like a mad dog.

Quite frankly, like all the men in his family it appears the biggest enemy is himself.

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Jon follows his heart and does what he believes is for the good of the realm, attacking Ramsey was in response to Ramsey threatening attacking castle black which isnt defensanle from the South so he took his men to the field where they stood a better chance I see nothing wrong with any of his actions really. You are right in the fact it alienates himself with his brothers really quick to fast perhaps but o well Jon doesnt have time to tip toe into shit he finds necessary. 

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12 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Jon follows his heart and does what he believes is for the good of the realm, attacking Ramsey was in response to Ramsey threatening attacking castle black which isnt defensanle from the South so he took his men to the field where they stood a better chance I see nothing wrong with any of his actions really. You are right in the fact it alienates himself with his brothers really quick to fast perhaps but o well Jon doesnt have time to tip toe into shit he finds necessary. 

Ramsey issued the threat in direct response to Jon's plan to seize Ramsey's property (wife)

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How many do you think those few more zombies are? Stannis killed a thousand and captured another and Tormund had little over three thousand, his dead not included. Mother Mole has more than twice that, we are told. Mance had 30000 when Jon was brought to him. Go figure how many more Othors and Jafer Flowers they will have to face if they leave them to their fate. This alone shows how good Jon is in assessing their situation.

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7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How many do you think those few more zombies are? Stannis killed a thousand and captured another and Tormund had little over three thousand, his dead not included. Mother Mole has more than twice that, we are told. Mance had 30000 when Jon was brought to him. Go figure how many more Othors and Jafer Flowers they will have to face if they leave them to their fate. This alone shows how good Jon is in assessing their situation.

Not enough to where it'd matter if everyone is bone thin and weak from starvation.Again they're stretched to capacity as it is. They simply don't have the resources to accommodate all the wildlings that are seeking refuge.

Trying to save everyone in this instance puts the likelihood of you not being able to save anyone.

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26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not enough to where it'd matter if everyone is bone thin and weak from starvation.Again they're stretched to capacity as it is. They simply don't have the resources to accommodate all the wildlings that are seeking refuge.

Trying to save everyone in this instance puts the likelihood of you not being able to save anyone.

It's still better than certain death and therefore certain dead soldiers. At the very least those he'll not have to face those he saved, even if they die afterwards he can just burn them.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ramsey issued the threat in direct response to Jon's plan to seize Ramsey's property (wife)

Jon didnt send a Raven to Ramsey demanding his sister back, Ramsey sent a raven to Jon assuming Farya would head towards castle black to her only remaining ally in the North she could trust. 

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Look,  I like Jon.

But, so far his tenure as LC has been lacking to say the least.

It's a matter of opinion, like so much else. I happen to disagree. 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He got elected through Aemon and Sam playing politics and leaning on the right men to vote(Sam also was the one who counted the votes along with the half-blind Aemon btw), yet when getting in his position he does very little to try actually build up connections within the brotherhood, sending the few loyal companions he had away.

Not sure what connections you are referring to here. For instance, he knows Marsh was plotting w/ Slynt and others and still he keeps Marsh as First Steward b/c he knows Marsh is the right man for the job. That's a decision that was made w/ the Watch's best interest in mind. And no, Jon didn't send his "few loyal companions" away because he still has a lot more men who are loyal to him. He only sent his closest friends away, and that out of necessity - real or imagined. 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He doesn't even try to smooth over relations a little with the establishment of the watch by simply taking on a nobleman as his steward.

And why should he take on a nobleman? But let's say he should have, just for fun... which nobleman currently at CB could he have chosen? Right, there's no one. On top of that, and even more importantly, why should Jon accommodate Marsh & cronies' prejudices and biases? Satin is a good fighter, has good manners, and can even read and write (after a fashion); that makes him the perfect choice to be the LC's steward.   

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He pushes and pushes his radical agenda of allowing the free folk in and allow them to say the vows ok I get that they need men but promoting leathers (whose a great warrior) as master at arms so quickly, is bad call.

Trying to save as many people as he possibly can is his main duty; in fact, protecting the realms of men it's  the NW raison d'être.

So, once again, why should Jon let the free folk die (and come back as wights)? Just b/c Marsh & co are prejudiced arseholes? 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's completely stubborn with any discussion on allowing the wildlings in even though,the actual ability to actually feed them has been stretched to its limits.

Except for that loan from the IB that Jon negotiated w/ Tycho Nestoris. :rolleyes:

 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I get he doesn't want the NK to have more soldiers, but honestly, if the people at the wall can't fend off a attack if they've been starved so bad , a few more zombie soldiers won't make a difference.

What are you talking about? There's no show discussion here, and there's no "NK" in the books. 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Sending good able men on rescue missions was insane.

Huh? 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The most ludicrous thing he did was try to save Arya.

Why? He sends Mance and the spearwives to rescue a feeling girl. What`s the problem w/ that?

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He allowed his emotions to get the better of him and as a result the watch was forced to either to support Jon's insane plan to lead a wildling charge against Ramsey or put him down like a mad dog.

Actually, no. The mutineers had no right to execute their LC. They were wrong, and will pay w/ their lives for their treason.

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Quite frankly, like all the men in his family it appears the biggest enemy is himself.

:lol:

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ramsey issued the threat in direct response to Jon's plan to seize Ramsey's property (wife)

Again, for the third and final time: I don't care how many threads you post this in, it's factually wrong. Jon only decides to go to Winterfell AFTER he receives the letter, therefore Jon going to Winterfell CANNOT be Ramsay's (or whoever's) motivation for writing the letter. Really, it's very very simple and easy to understand. 

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He got elected through Aemon and Sam playing politics and leaning on the right men to vote(Sam also was the one who counted the votes along with the half-blind Aemon btw), yet when getting in his position he does very little to try actually build up connections within the brotherhood, sending the few loyal companions he had away

He was elected because he was somebody that both Denys Mallister and Cottor Pyke could support, the only reason why they were running for the position was to keep Janos Slynt out of the office as they know that would be a disaster.

As for the counting of votes, in the book they upturn the urn that contains the tokens onto the table, Jon is represented by an arrowhead shape if i'm not mistaken, he notes that there is a torrent of them pouring out of the urn, so much so there is no need to count them as the result is obvious.

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Quite frankly, like all the men in his family it appears the biggest enemy is himself.

Agreed, much like Ned and Robb, he proves himself unable to adapt to circumstances that conflict with his ideals and sense of honour.  Like with Ned he finally cracks when the letter arrives and is unable to do nothing any longer.

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To answer the topic question, NO.  Jon has been stabbed multiple times and is gravely wounded if not in fact dead.   He's in no condition to do anything.  Hopefully he's put the right people in the right places to ensure his previous commands are honored.  Maybe better to speak of this after TWOW is released so we have a better grasp on Jon's condition and events at the Wall.  

Nights King is a legend in the books.  There is no evidence to support his existence, only legends.  If you must bring the show up you have to then ask yourself about Jon's competence according to the actions Jon took in that story.   (You have to post in the show forum, too--this is unspeakable reference in the book forum)  Jon is a lot of things but incompetent is not among them. 

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I think so.

Honestly, it was ADwD that made me love Jon as a character and sealed him as one of the more on-the-ball leaders in the books. Prior to that, I thought he was sort of... OK, at best.

Besides, it wasn't just about saving Arya; he knows from the letter that Ramsay doesn't have her. What he was really reacting to was Ramsay abusing his power, making unreasonable demands of the Night's Watch and threatening Jon directly. While Jon's choice to march off with whoever would go with him to stop him was far from his smartest move, he was nonetheless caught between a rock and a hard place -- try and stop Ramsay now or wait until he comes to you and run the risk of being attacked from the South where the NW would not be able to defend, (especially if the Others then turn up and start attacking from the North). Jon's emotional reaction was good as it exposed his fatal flaw.

But I'm not going to go into the "Was Jon right?" question here. There is a perfectly good, more thorough and active thread for that already:

Anyway, reading Jon's chapters in ADwD were some of the most fascinating for the character and I agreed with a lot of his choices. Considering he's only 17 (or just short of 17, whatever), I thought he did well. He is surprisingly competent. He asks all the right questions and there is a logic behind everything he chooses to do.

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What are you talking about? There's no show discussion here, and there's no "NK" in the books. 

Huh? 

I think he is talking about hardhome and the scouting missions (if I am not mistaken he sends rangers scouting and some are killed and other are unknow)

And both decisions make sense! Jon is not only reducing the number of wights he will have to fight but incrasing his soldiers. And he needs scouts to know what the ww are doing. He can t be blind to the enemies movements. If the ww decide to attack na unmaned castle jon HAS TO KNOW!

 

On the whole jon is a progressive leader that at the present is saving the watch, the wildlings, organizing a way to feed them all and trying to create a battle plan. His problem, like with robb, is the quality of the people around him. Most of the fighting men of the watch are dead and a lot of those that remain are either cowards or conservatists that would rather fight the wildlings that their true enemy. If jon was given years maybe he wouldn t have so many probs, but he is acting as fast as possible and there a lot of people that aren t keeping up with him. Then the PL was the breaking point for some of them...

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

I think he is talking about hardhome and the scouting missions (if I am not mistaken he sends rangers scouting and some are killed and other are unknow)

Yeah, I was being sarcastic, sorry. B/c the poster I quoted said it was wrong for Jon to send able bodied men (or something along those lines)  to range, and I immediately thought, "right, he should have sent the sick and injured ones!"  

Quote

And both decisions make sense! Jon is not only reducing the number of wights he will have to fight but incrasing his soldiers. And he needs scouts to know what the ww are doing. He can t be blind to the enemies movements. If the ww decide to attack na unmaned castle jon HAS TO KNOW!

Yup.

Quote

On the whole jon is a progressive leader that at the present is saving the watch, the wildlings, organizing a way to feed them all and trying to create a battle plan. His problem, like with robb, is the quality of the people around him. Most of the fighting men of the watch are dead and a lot of those that remain are either cowards or conservatists that would rather fight the wildlings that their true enemy. If jon was given years maybe he wouldn t have so many probs, but he is acting as fast as possible and there a lot of people that aren t keeping up with him. Then the PL was the breaking point for some of them...

Yeah, CB has few men, and among those few men there are some bad pomegranates apples. Luckily, the bad apples will be squished soon, and now Jon will have many more men and women to join their ranks - not necessarily as crows, but as humans fighting side by side w/ the crows. 

 

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Jon has identified the weaknesses of the Night's Watch and is trying to address them. It ranges from something as simple as him having Ulmer of the Kingswood train everyone on how to properly bend a bow to restoring the castles and having them garrisoned. It's not just common sense to do that, it's also what needs to be done. Archers will be key in the defense of the realm. And it's not like the wildlings want to just disapear south of the Wall, they are there and they will fight when the time comes.

I find the Jon chapters in Dance really fascinating and I understand why he is standing his ground against Bowen Marsh & Co. If he concedes one an, they will ask for more every time. And honestly, they've disagreed with everything he's done so far, including having Satin as his steward because he used to be a whore in Oldtown and that's where it starts and ends with them. 

That said, Jon's biggest mistake was to isolate himself from his friends and sending them away. I get why he did it, but it was such a wrong move.

He is fit to command, he needs to surround himself with the right people, though.

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15 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jon has identified the weaknesses of the Night's Watch and is trying to address them. It ranges from something as simple as him having Ulmer of the Kingswood train everyone on how to properly bend a bow to restoring the castles and having them garrisoned. It's not just common sense to do that, it's also what needs to be done. Archers will be key in the defense of the realm. And it's not like the wildlings want to just disapear south of the Wall, they are there and they will fight when the time comes.

I find the Jon chapters in Dance really fascinating and I understand why he is standing his ground against Bowen Marsh & Co. If he concedes one an, they will ask for more every time. And honestly, they've disagreed with everything he's done so far, including having Satin as his steward because he used to be a whore in Oldtown and that's where it starts and ends with them. 

That said, Jon's biggest mistake was to isolate himself from his friends and sending them away. I get why he did it, but it was such a wrong move.

He is fit to move, he needs to surround himself with the right people, though.

Taking into account he was stabed we all think he should have kept his frends close by. But if had kept his friends close by and one of the newly maned castles revolted or started killing wildlings we would all say the reverse. I think it is one of those situations that is needed to keep a balance and jon may not have enough friends or trusted men in the watch 

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We see that he wasn't fit for command, mostly due to his age and the issues he has with himself and his lot in life, in small instances. He rises to high too quickly, failing to understand that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch isn't a king or a lord. He is the head of a military order whose politics and decisions won't be realized when he hasn't the allegiance and support of his own officers (and a majority of his own men) which Jon most definitely lacks.

As a compromise candidate, he has no power base of his own, and he erodes that even further by sending away his closest friends and allies (Aemon, Samwell, Pyp, Grenn, Edd, etc.).

His youth makes it rather difficult for him to establish himself as a universally accepted leader, and his demeanor (residing in the armory, not running around with a retinue of bodyguards, etc.) makes him both vulnerable to attack and look unimpressive.

He also rose too high to quickly. We see that when his arrogance takes the better of him, ignoring the advice of his officers and failing to see that their resentment and opposition could have dire consequences for him. He also provokes the establishment of the Watch unduly by make a whore like Satin his steward and squire and naming a creature like Leathers the new master-at-arms at Castle Black. Those men may have been good men, but Jon isn't living in a meritocracy. You don't give a whore or peasant the office usually reserved for a knight or ranger - or the potential successor of the Lord Commander. And if you feel you can only trust such people your power base is simply not existent.

But then - Jon had other, better men for those jobs. Iron Emmett and Eddison Tollett were good at what they did, men in high standing among the men of the Watch. 

Not to mention striking a deal with Iron Bank but apparently not telling anyone about that.

A man actually suited to command would have realized that he first has to secure his power in his own order and crush all potential opposition there before he could go about implementing radical changes. He set a very promising example with Janos Slynt. But then he dropped the ball. The way to continue would have been to make the others understand that anyone contemplating treason and disobedience would suffer a similar fate. In addition, having officers that second-guess and oppose pretty much all your decisions are simply of no use. You need people who support you and your decisions and whose criticism or objections - if they are uttered - are constructive not destructive. You have to know that those men will do what you tell them to do wholeheartedly after the final decision is made.

Marsh and Yarwyck (and Clydas, too) should have been the first to be replaced by men Jon knew he could trust. The important offices have to be in the hands of men who are your men, not people who (might) oppose you.

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30 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Re: the relationship between Ramsay and his "property", I really don't dig arguments presenting Ramsay as being in the right, or even right-adjacent.

Ramsay is as much in the right as Robert was after the abduction of Lyanna or the Laughing Storm and the Freys were after Prince Duncan/Robb spit on their honor.

He is, in a sense, even more right than they were considering that Ramsay received the hand of his wife from King Tommen himself, who, as the father of the Realm, apparently has the right to arrange marriages for orphaned nobles (at least that's what Joffrey claims when he delivers Sansa to the loving marital care of his uncle, Tyrion Lannister).

The idea that a man can come between a husband and his wife in this world isn't exactly indicated or supported by the text. A dutiful wife is supposed to be obedient to her husband, which means 'Arya' should stand with Ramsay against all his enemies, regardless who they are.

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Look,  I like Jon.

But, so far his tenure as LC has been lacking to say the least.

He got elected through Aemon and Sam playing politics and leaning on the right men to vote(Sam also was the one who counted the votes along with the half-blind Aemon btw), yet when getting in his position he does very little to try actually build up connections within the brotherhood, sending the few loyal companions he had away.

He doesn't even try to smooth over relations a little with the establishment of the watch by simply taking on a nobleman as his steward.

 

He pushes and pushes his radical agenda of allowing the free folk in and allow them to say the vows ok I get that they need men but promoting leathers (whose a great warrior) as master at arms so quickly, is bad call.

He's completely stubborn with any discussion on allowing the wildlings in even though,the actual ability to actually feed them has been stretched to its limits.

I get he doesn't want the NK to have more soldiers, but honestly, if the people at the wall can't fend off a attack if they've been starved so bad , a few more zombie soldiers won't make a difference.

Sending good able men on rescue missions was insane.

The most ludicrous thing he did was try to save Arya.

He allowed his emotions to get the better of him and as a result the watch was forced to either to support Jon's insane plan to lead a wildling charge against Ramsey or put him down like a mad dog.

Quite frankly, like all the men in his family it appears the biggest enemy is himself.

Jon is the blood of Ned Stark, raised in Winterfell and will be the great uniter the north needs after Stannis and the Boltons fight for control below the wall  

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