the trees have eyes Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 9:04 PM, Sourjapes said: My analogy fits perfectly. You welcome wanton slaughter because you think your cause is morale enough to justify it. I feel the same about mine. I'm going to build a great nation that will feed millions with its crops, innovate countless new technologies, and even plant its flag on the moon. If some stone-age plains nomads have to suffer for it then so be it. How is my cause less justified than yours? In any case, I think trying to end slavery in Slavery's Bay is a good cause and worth doing... it's the HOW that I disagree with. I don't think what Dany is doing will have any real lasting impact there and in the process it will kill and maim a lot of people. It's her approach that is flawed. Utter tripe. How is Dany ruling in Meereen, marrying Hizdar and donning her floppy ears analgous to the conquest of the American Indians and penning them up in reservations? Did Andrew Jackson adopt the ways of the Indians or Grant dress up like Sitting Bull? Dany ended slavery and liberated the poor fucks who were captured and sold into slavery from outside Slalver's Bay and that is pretty much the only thing she has tried to change. I don't see any settlers in her train hungry for land and believing a moral, cultural and religious superiority they intend to force down the throats of the conquered peoples who become second class citizens in what pitiful part of their own lands they are allowed to keep. Terrible analogy..... Who's welcoming wanton slaughter? If you have a plan to emancipate the slaves of Slavers Bay and change the entire slave-owning basis of the economy without any conflict I'm all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourjapes Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 16 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: The text was very clear about who pinned the children onto those posts: "The Great Masters [...] had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai, nailed them up still living with their entrails hanging out and one arm always outstretched to point the way to Meereen." The Great Masters, if you'll remember, were the rulers of the city. They weren't just random Meereenese acting independently. So Dany was showing mercy by punishing only 163 of them. Maybe. I'll concede that it having been a few years since I've read the book and I've seen the show twice since then, once for myself and once with my mother, I have confused a few things between the two versions in my head. If so I have much less problem with what she did, or even none at all. Albeit, the text you quoted is vague. "Congress [...] had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the cost road from Yunkai [...]" Who in congress? Unanimous vote? No dissenting voices or votes that were pressured? It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who would do what they did, but it is still perhaps an unwise tactic to introduce your rule. The Wise Masters are powerful people and slaughtering them in this way is only going to make things harder for you going forward. It might feel good but might not be wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourjapes Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: Utter tripe. How is Dany ruling in Meereen, marrying Hizdar and donning her floppy ears analgous to the conquest of the American Indians and penning them up in reservations? Go back and read what Bowen Marsh said. I was quoting him and turning his casual acceptance of mass slaughter back on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Sourjapes said: Maybe. I'll concede that it having been a few years since I've read the book and I've seen the show twice since then, once for myself and once with my mother, I have confused a few things between the two versions in my head. If so I have much less problem with what she did, or even none at all. Albeit, the text you quoted is vague. "Congress [...] had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the cost road from Yunkai [...]" Who in congress? Unanimous vote? No dissenting voices or votes that were pressured? It is hard to have sympathy for anyone who would do what they did, but it is still perhaps an unwise tactic to introduce your rule. The Wise Masters are powerful people and slaughtering them in this way is only going to make things harder for you going forward. It might feel good but might not be wise. There's nothing vague about it. The Great Masters aren't portrayed as any different to the Good Masters of Astapor, and we saw what they decided was totally cool to do to their slaves. I seriously doubt any of them had any moral objection to nailing kids to posts. If GRRM had meant for them to be interpreted that way, he would have had a Mozzzac Lo Whatever come out and voice his innocence. But none did, so this idea that there were "innocent slavers" is nonsense. Dany was trying to upheave Meereenese society, so she was going to have a hard time no matter what she did. Imprisoning 163 Great Masters wouldn't have made the noble class resent her rule any less, and not punishing them at all would have marked her as soft. Her mistake imo was not stripping all the nobles of their wealth and titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Sourjapes said: Go back and read what Bowen Marsh said. I was quoting him and turning his casual acceptance of mass slaughter back on him. What has that got to do with the Slaver's Bay emancipation arc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 On 1/7/2018 at 5:21 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: ....You realize that being pro slavery in the 1850's was part of US culture right? That doesn't make it right... In my high school, it was certainly still part of the culture to be extremely homophobic and racist. Thank god most people didn't have your attitude and started standing against that. If someone chooses to have slaves, and treat them as sub human, they are horrible people. I am sorry, perhaps they can change or find redemption, but part of culture or not, it is awful. I am pretty sure many Americans still make excuses like yours for why we have to accept our parents or grandparents racism. We don't. I can keep making examples if you like. It was part of German culture during WWII to murder Jews. Should we let them off? How about in Japan where they used comfort women (sex slaves essentially) during WWII. Should those people go unpunished because everbody was doing it? (that is essentially the same idea as part of their culture) Honestly, I love this site. I love commenting and being part of a community. However, I am really tired of people defending murderers, sociopaths, or slavery. Jesus people, look at your words and really think about them. US slavery and Slaver's Bay slavery is a bad comparison. US culture is/was closely connected with European culture, basically it was almost the same. Half of US abolished slavery and USA slavery is different from SB one. Southern states had slaves to boost their economy like Roman empire and Egyptians did but majority of population was still lower class that worked ( goes for Confederacy, Rome and Egypt). In SB most of population is slaves and all the free people are nobles who trade with slaves. So in US a lot more people was aware of how awful slavery was than in Slaver's Bay. American slavers had the option free all slaves and move to northern state, SB noble doesn't have that option since with this act he would endanger SB social structure and would probably be imprisoned by other nobles. I am not saying SB nobles shouldn't be punished but punishment shouldn't be death and should effect everyone equally as they were equally guilty. Holocaust is another bad comparison. Killing Jews was never part of German culture because culture takes more generations to be changed. But in Germany holocaust lasted for 10 years max and it was something new for most people who lived in Germany. Contrary every single noble in SB was raised in times of slavery and was taught slavery is good and that gods gave him position of noble and slaves were granted position of a slave and it is his duty to keep it that way, I think most of them believed that. They acted like everyone else did they wanted to be accepted by their society like we want now and don't say you would be the hero and go on Berlin streets in 1942 screaming: "Save the Jews! Hitler is bad!" More than 99% of the people wouldn't do that or as a SB noble start freeing slaves. Every German who lived in Third Reich was in fact supporting holocaust by not protesting against it and is responsible for war because they elected Hitler and confirmed all the constitutional changes on referendums. But can you really judge them for that? a.) No, because you wouldn't be different from them it is human nature. b.) Yes, they should execute same amount of Germans as Nazis killed Jews. Japanese men having sex slaves during WWII again, they could always choose not to have sex with a woman it is not like his friends will be there screaming at him to have sex with a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 On 1/6/2018 at 5:18 PM, John Doe said: Do you think serfdom is much better than slavery? It depends on that. It is better, you could actually leave your land and go to city and become a free man. You got beaten up less ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeeyeare Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 On 1/7/2018 at 9:51 AM, Sourjapes said: That's what I say about the Indian Wars! You want to make a great nation you have to break some eggs, you got to kill some people. It's dirty, rotten work, but that's what societies are built on. Besides, the more thorough your slaughter the less lasting racial grievances you'll have afterwards. When did Daenerys commit genocide? On 1/7/2018 at 11:04 PM, Sourjapes said: My analogy fits perfectly. You welcome wanton slaughter because you think your cause is morale enough to justify it. I feel the same about mine. I'm going to build a great nation that will feed millions with its crops, innovate countless new technologies, and even plant its flag on the moon. If some stone-age plains nomads have to suffer for it then so be it. How is my cause less justified than yours? Because advocating the eradication of an entire civilisation is not the same as the eradication of a class in a civilisation. A class that is actively oppressing those "beneath" them. Are you dumb? 15 hours ago, Sourjapes said: Go back and read what Bowen Marsh said. I was quoting him and turning his casual acceptance of mass slaughter back on him. His solution lands on the extreme end. Your response is just utter rubbish. It's wholly unintelligent. It's juvenile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourjapes Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 10:38 AM, Seeeyeare said: Because advocating the eradication of an entire civilisation is not the same as the eradication of a class in a civilisation. Seems like there might be an ethnic component to these classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 She was only a young girl and knew little of the ways of crucifiction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 46 minutes ago, Sourjapes said: Seems like there might be an ethnic component to these classes. The Meereenese and Astapori don't appear to have multi-racial societies, they have rich and poor citizens organised along rudimentary lines of caste, and then they have slaves. The slaves themselves are taken from anywhere and are the only multi-racial component of these societies, though of course they are not a part of those societies but the victims of them. If you think the societies of these city states are based on sub-divisions of race or ethnicity and that Dany's conduct is based on some racial prejudice rather than anger at the murder of children then by all means elaborate on how you reach these conclusions. Otherwise she does indeed look to punish a guilty class based on their behaviour (whether this is right or wrong) not their ethnic group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 1/6/2018 at 9:14 AM, John Doe said: You guys realize Dany isn't much better than slavers, right? She wants to make war on a kingdom because she was born to the last ruler of it. Would she abolish serfdom? Would she stop demanding people's loyalty because of her family name? If not, she's not much better than slave masters demanding to rule because they view it as their birth right. I mean, I'm all for comparing fictional characters, but let's leave the bible fandom out of this one please. Wanting to take back what is yours is not necessarily a bad thing. The Starks want to take back Winterfell and perhaps you would support that. Daenerys is nothing at all like the slavers. She is the heroine in the story. Millions of former slaves now call themselves men instead of property, thanks to Daenerys Stormborn. She is the only person in the story who is willing to stick their neck out for people whom she owed nothing to and people who are not capable of giving anything back. It was an act of altruism. Oh, I think the comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah is appropriate and I will stick with it. Sorry if that displeases you but I will not refrain from using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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