Dany was smart to crucify some of the Mereen slave masters; but she did it the wrong way.

[thor2006]

8 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

The sins of the Meereenese are so great stretching back to their early days that Dany is fully justified if she passed judgment and did to them what God did to Sodom and Gommorah.  Slaving is not just stealing away someone's freedom and making them work for free.  The fighting pits are hell.  The plaza of punishment is a place of pain, torture, and death.  The temptation to reduce that hellish city to ashes is tempting but there will be nowhere to go.  Mass execution of the master class is the second best move and what I would counsel to do.

 

8 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The men who were crucified were guilty of nailing children to crosses.  It is just punishment. 

I don't believe anything short of death will deter the slavers because practicing slavery is something they hold dear in their wicked hearts.  More of those wicked people should have been executed.  Not nearly enough were executed.

The only mistake that Dany made is being too soft.  She freed the slaves but allowed the old masters to keep the ability to fight back.  They kept their resources.  That's similar to cutting the weed but leaving the roots intact. 

Here's what I would have done.

1. Execute a significant percentage of the masters over a certain age.  Say 25% of all the masters over the age of 12.  Castrate all the remaining males.
2. Confiscate all of the wealth from the masters.  All of it. 
3. Destroy the culture. 

The masters have enjoyed the benefits of slaving for thousand of years.  There are no innocents, only volunteers.  Slavery is more than a business and source of wealth.  Owning slaves is status and it is part of the sadistic culture that those monsters cherish.  Trying to play nice with them is not going to work.  Don't just pull the weeds above the ground.  Pull everything down to the roots.  That means destroying the culture. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Those masters were guilty and have been guilty all of their lives.  It is justice. 

Agreed. The only mistake Dany made is that she was too soft.

[Sourjapes]

On 12/19/2017 at 9:07 AM, cpg2016 said:

An eye for an eye isn't justice.  Besides, the slavers were guilty of far more, and far worse, than 163 crucifixions.

Daenerys should have culled the entire slaver class, completely redistributed their wealth to the freed slaves, and actually empowered whoever she left behind to rule by leaving them with the ability to wield military force.

 

That is incredibly naive. How do you empower slaves like that? You can't just say, "You have the power now" and then walk away. They have no experience or familiarity with power. No real culture of power or rule, only obedience. Dany's slaughter, and the slaughter others have proposed, is also not a good way to build a lasting relationship between these people. You wipe out the slave class and the survivors will just be that much more vengeful and furthermore there will be nobody left who knows how to run anything.

 

Kill the worst of the slavers and compel the others to agree to reforms or restitution for freed slaves. You cannot just change a culture with a stroke, not if expect to have a functional society.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

That is incredibly naive. How do you empower slaves like that? You can't just say, "You have the power now" and then walk away. They have no experience or familiarity with power. No real culture of power or rule, only obedience. Dany's slaughter, and the slaughter others have proposed, is also not a good way to build a lasting relationship between these people. You wipe out the slave class and the survivors will just be that much more vengeful and furthermore there will be nobody left who knows how to run anything.

 

Kill the worst of the slavers and compel the others to agree to reforms or restitution for freed slaves. You cannot just change a culture with a stroke, not if expect to have a functional society.

Agreed. Martin clearly subverts this common trope of the protagonist beating x bad guy or group and everything becoming wonderful. When an economy rests on slavery such a dramatic departure from it could result in chaos. Astapor was left in the hands of people who've no real experience at ruling no ability to actually enforce the law or way to make the city economically stable. It was doomed to fail the second Dany left her unsullied, and quite frankly, it'd probably have been better off if Dany had never came. 

[Rosetta Stone]

163 is not enough.  That number doesn't even make a dent in the ranks of the masters and their terrorists arm, the harpy.  At least over half will need to be put to the sword.  You cannot change a culture that refuses to change without putting the stubborn to the sword and removing their ability to fight back.   Progress is made.  The fact that slaves have been taken from their masters and are now free people is something to celebrate.  Even the slaves in far Volantis are affected and inspired.  It is a good start and the work has just begun. 

[cpg2016]

On 12/24/2017 at 7:45 PM, Sourjapes said:

That is incredibly naive. How do you empower slaves like that? You can't just say, "You have the power now" and then walk away. They have no experience or familiarity with power. No real culture of power or rule, only obedience. Dany's slaughter, and the slaughter others have proposed, is also not a good way to build a lasting relationship between these people. You wipe out the slave class and the survivors will just be that much more vengeful and furthermore there will be nobody left who knows how to run anything.

Of course you don't.  You need to stay and acquaint them with self-rule, and allow them the time to learn to wield that power.

And if you wipe out the slaver class, or disempower them thoroughly, then there ARE no survivors to be vengeful.  As it is, Dany chooses the worst possible course (other than siding with the slavers); she grants "freedom" to the slaves, but leaves all the economic, political, and social clout in the hands of the slaving class.

This idea that only those who have held power know how to run things is the kind of bullshit that gives us real-world justifications for exploitative colonialism and slavery.  The idea that the slave class doesn't have their own social and power structures is absurd, and while it's true that the mechanics of running a political entity are different than the power politics of a slave society, the idea that it's even possible to run Slavers Bay worse than its currently being run is laughable.

On 12/24/2017 at 7:45 PM, Sourjapes said:

Kill the worst of the slavers and compel the others to agree to reforms or restitution for freed slaves. You cannot just change a culture with a stroke, not if expect to have a functional society.

Functional for who?  From the point of view of the slaves, literally anything is more functional than the society Dany just brought down.  Look at how their lives are described; it makes even the most over-the-top crimes against slaves in the real world seem downright benevolent.  You are explicitly arguing for the slavers here, and against the slaves.

Slavers Bay has no choice to have it's culture changed at a stroke, because that stroke is getting rid of slavery.  Which is the only foundation, it seems, upon which society, economy, and politics in rest on.

What Dany should be doing is killing most of the slaving class (sparing, perhaps, the children) and then stripping them of almost all their wealth and land, and figuring out how to redistribute it to the slaves.  Only by clear cutting the slaving class and removing all their levers of power, can she ensure that they won't rise again.  It's the same mistake that was made after the American Civil War, where "slavery" was abolished, by the slavers retained all their political, economic, and political clout, and thus were able to functionally re-enslave the freedmen the moment federal troops (or, in this case, the Unsullied) were gone.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

4 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Only by clear cutting the slaving class and removing all their levers of power, can she ensure that they won't rise again. 

It is.  Being nice is not going to work against the slavers.  They have too miuch vested interest economically, socially, culturally, and what not in the slave system.  There is nothing short of the promise of immortality that you can offer them in exchange.  The masters see themselves owners of men and pride themselves on their social status.  They will do everything they can to hold on to their slaves.  They will hold on to slavery as strongly as the lords of Westeros will fight to hold on to feudalism.   You have to be convincing.  But I think it is worth it to give peace a chance.  Now that we know it doesn't work it's time for fire and blood.  Dany tried the nice way.  It's time now to bring down the wrath of the dragon. 

 

[Sourjapes]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:52 AM, cpg2016 said:

And if you wipe out the slaver class, or disempower them thoroughly, then there ARE no survivors to be vengeful. 

This idea that only those who have held power know how to run things is the kind of bullshit that gives us real-world justifications for exploitative colonialism and slavery.  The idea that the slave class doesn't have their own social and power structures is absurd, and while it's true that the mechanics of running a political entity are different than the power politics of a slave society, the idea that it's even possible to run Slavers Bay worse than its currently being run is laughable.

 

Like I said, what you are proposing is naive. What is worse for the slaves is a disease and starvation and the breakdown of society, like we saw in Astapor and is starting to happen to Mereen. Answer me this, what would be better for the slaves in Astapor?

 

>They are free but now the city is heaped in blood, chaos reigns, and disease is rampant as society crumbles

Or

>Slaves now have rights such as children are not born into slavery, slaves cannot be tortured, cannot be executed without trial, and are guaranteed a day or two off each week, and the selling or importing of slaves within and without Slaver's Bay is banned

You are correct that Dany chose one of the worst options but what you propose is only a little better. Better to reform the power structures there than try to tear them down, especially when you are a foreign conqueror. After all Dany comes closest to ending the violence and dysfunction when she does exactly that by marrying Hizadr.

For some historical perspective the American Civil War was caused by overzealous people who either were desperate to enshrine slavery or were desperate to end it. Hundreds of thousands dead, a million maimed,and many cities and towns in ruins, but it might have been avoided. Slavery in the United States was already on the way out and if the gradual, reforming approach had persisted then the war and all the social dysfunction that followed afterward might have been avoided.

 

Finally, I don't think you are advocating genocide but you are coming close. Dany's crucifixion of the slavers was not an appropriate response, not without her first finding out who the worst of the slave class were and/or which were actually responsible for the original atrocity. Grabbing people at random because they belong to a certain class is not justice and it is not a good way to begin to reform and transform this society. She should have just used her army to enforce slave emancipation and redistributed SOME of the wealth of the slaver class to the slave class as compensation for the years slaves have served. She could have even allowed the slavery class to redistribute this wealth gradually in the form of wages, allowing their former slaves to become employees.

 

In the long run Dany would have an easier time ending slavery in slavery's bay if she is offering the ruling classes an economic alternative. Albeit, I don't know exactly what that would be. Not enough information on the details of the economics of Planetos.

[cpg2016]

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

Like I said, what you are proposing is naive. What is worse for the slaves is a disease and starvation and the breakdown of society, like we saw in Astapor and is starting to happen to Mereen. Answer me this, what would be better for the slaves in Astapor?

The slaves starve and are diseased explicitly because they're being besieged by their former masters.  Try again, buddy.

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

You are correct that Dany chose one of the worst options but what you propose is only a little better. Better to reform the power structures there than try to tear them down, especially when you are a foreign conqueror.

You cannot reform this kind of power imbalance.  As we see, Dany explicitly didn't fix anything by marrying Hizdahr; Tyrion and Penny are still being forced to fight as slaves, and it's only evident because of how absurd the prospect is that they aren't there voluntarily.

Moreover, this kind of "reform" lasts only as long as Dany lives.  The second she dies, the Masters are back in control and the slaves are re-enslaved.  Because the Masters still hold all the institutional power.  You know... kind of like how the freedmen in the postbellum South went back into effective bondage (just without the name) the moment federal troops left Dixie in 1877.

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

For some historical perspective the American Civil War was caused by overzealous people who either were desperate to enshrine slavery or were desperate to end it.

This is wrong, is an awful, awful synopsis of the causes of the Civil War, and you should be ashamed to espouse it.  The American Civil War was caused by a planting aristocracy in the Southern states who were unwilling to cede the power they had over the government to popular representation, and were only willing to hold to their end of the contract as long as their supremacy, which was explicitly linked to slaveholding, was guaranteed by the North.

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

Slavery in the United States was already on the way out and if the gradual, reforming approach had persisted then the war and all the social dysfunction that followed afterward might have been avoided.

It was not on it's way out.  The invention of the cotton gin by Eli Whitney had reinvigorated slavery, and moreover, as we see during the Jim Crow era, the planting aristocracy and indeed the entire white population of the South put a lot of their self-image into being socially and economically superior to blacks.  The fact that black political participation was squashed not during Reconstruction, but immediately after, makes it abundantly clear that there was no way for black folks in the late 19th century to actively participate in society without outside military aid, as the victorious American government had left the social, political, and economically dominant class mostly entrenched in power.  It's a great parallel to what is happening inside Meereen and Slaver's Bay as a whole.

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

Finally, I don't think you are advocating genocide but you are coming close.

If you think that is genocide, you don't understand what that word means.  I am advocating removing all power from the hands of the slavers; kill the obviously most-guilty ones if you want, but strip them of power and privilege and reassign that to the slaves.  In Dany's case, she frees slaves, but the Masters still control the land and the means on production, which means the slaves are forced to put themselves back into effective bondage on whatever terms the Masters offer.

 

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

In the long run Dany would have an easier time ending slavery in slavery's bay if she is offering the ruling classes an economic alternative. Albeit, I don't know exactly what that would be. Not enough information on the details of the economics of Planetos.

This is why you don't understand the argument; there is no economic alternative!  Right now the Masters own EVERYTHING, from the bricks to the land to the very people of Slaver's Bay!.  What possible reason could they have to compromise?  As it is, Dany's offer is outstandingly generous; they give up their slaves but keep everything else, including much of their wealth, their political importance, and their social prestige.  And even that isn't enough.

For Dany, ending slavery would have been easy.  Again, take everything from the Masters and reassign it throughout society, so the fundamental power balance shifts from being a very steep pyramid to a more flat distribution.  If the Masters don't have the social and economic clout to force the freedmen to serve on unfavorable terms, there will be no issue.  Again, Astapor may have been seized by Cleon in a coup, but he doesn't really institute widespread chattel slavery, and even this would have been easily avoided had Dany just left a small military contingent in place (also, it's obvious that each city cannot stand on it's own, only the liberation of ALL of Slaver's Bay will do).  Again, look at Yunkai; not only do the Masters re-institute slavery in their own city, but they actively march to re-enslave the Astaporians, for whom they have no economic or political claim over.  The various Masters are equally, if not more, committed to maintaining the social institution of slavery as the economic one, and against that there is no compromise.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Well, the main reason Dany's in a mess is lack of follow up. Hence, "dragons plant no trees". I don't know if I'd go as far as having extended crucifixions though. Not that the slavers didn't deserve it, but it would have been impractical (just as neutering rapists became) and the Sons of the Harpy would have still popped up. She should have at least stripped the slavers of their wealth and titles though.

On 12/20/2017 at 4:39 PM, GallowsKnight said:

Westerosi justice would be finding the specific people who ordered the crucifixions of the children and those who carried out the crucifixions and executing them. Rope for the commoners, axe for the highborn. If this means only executing 40 people or executing more like 400 so be it. 

"Westerosi justice" is executing two entire houses, so it's pretty clear that "an eye for an eye" for pretty standard for Westeros.

Also, the crucifixions of the 163 children was the collective work of the Great Masters, the rulers of the city. The idea that some of them objected to the act is laughable.

[Sourjapes]

On 1/4/2018 at 5:40 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Also, the crucifixions of the 163 children was the collective work of the Great Masters, the rulers of the city. The idea that some of them objected to the act is laughable.

I think you and others who celebrate Dany's actions are being blinded by an overzealous virtuous impulse. It seems unreasonable to me, and is countered by the text, that every slaver was the same and an advocate for the worst of the slaver classes's practices. I think I explained my reasoning here already though so I won't repeat it.

 

On 1/4/2018 at 0:02 PM, cpg2016 said:

The slaves starve and are diseased explicitly because they're being besieged by their former masters...

 

...(stuff about the Civil War)...

...This is why you don't understand the argument; there is no economic alternative!  Right now the Masters own EVERYTHING, from the bricks to the land to the very people of Slaver's Bay!.  What possible reason could they have to compromise?...

 

No, you cannot just "Reassign" power and privilege in society. This is why Marxism never works out the way it is intended to. You can look at Africa for examples of this kind of thing happening. You kick out the people who know how to actually run a society and have an established culture of doing just that and you will get chaos. I guarantee you that the siege is NOT the only reason the slaves are dying of starvation and disease; it is also because society is being broken down. Don't lecture me on economics when you think you can wave your hand and transfer all the wealth from one group to another and have things just march on hunky-doory. Do you know what "labor" and labor supply are? How about financial risk? Do you know how trade works, how currency works? You also touched on another aspect of all this and that is outside interference in Slavery's Bay. Dany should have considered what would happen after she left. You are correct that her reforms will be reverted after she leaves since the threat of military force is how she enforces compliance. My solution to that is: she doesn't leave. I think that if she was going to dip her toes into Slaver's Bay and begin a crusade to end slavery there then she needs to play the long game and plan to rule there until her death. Forge a new dynasty, a new Empire, and a new culture from it. To that she needs to implement gradual reforms, as I explained. The less drastic her commands seem, whatever the long-term implications, the less resistance she will meet.

 

Dany took the easy route though: free your people. Well they can do that but then the slaves have no where to live and no way to make a living. Even if you then command the masters to pay them how much? The economic environment has just changed in a drastic way. That's setting aside the cultural shift. It's true that the masters hold all the cards which makes it nigh impossible for the slaves to peacefully integrate into a more equal society. That's why what Dany did won't work. Even if she stripped all the wealth from the masters and handed out to the slaves how many of them would know what do with it? Many will have useful skills and knowledge, but no connections. Very little if any established culture of trade and barter among themselves. What of justice and law? ...and how does Dany hand out the wealth anyway? To whom specifically? What happens to the former slave-owning class? Do they keep anything? I'm sure you are aware as well, you mentioned this when you were talking about the civil war, but people can be slaves for their apparent wages too and physical circumstances. If they can't afford not to accept a wage and can't go elsewhere then their situation hasn't changed much. There is also the issue of innocent members of the slave-owning class, namely children, who suffered when the freed slaves rioted. I am reminded of looters vandalizing and stealing from museums in Iraq after the US invasion; that kind of thing should have been accounted for by the US and ditto for Dany. You break it you bought it.

 

Considering the cruelty on display in Slaver's Bay I think Dany can hardly be faulted for taking an emotional approach but that doesn't mean it was the right one.

 

Regarding the civil war, the causes were complex and I wasn't claiming the Southern plantation owners weren't culpable in causing it too, or in driving the chaos and violence afterward. However a good ruler or government needs to account for these things. My point was, the failures of reconstruction, which were criticized even at the time by voices that I'm sure you'd find offensive, but whom have been vindicated by history, shows the folly in using such blunt methods to so radically change a slaving society.

[John Doe]

You guys realize Dany isn't much better than slavers, right? She wants to make war on a kingdom because she was born to the last ruler of it. Would she abolish serfdom? Would she stop demanding people's loyalty because of her family name? If not, she's not much better than slave masters demanding to rule because they view it as their birth right.

On 21.12.2017 at 4:49 AM, Agent Orange said:

The sins of the Meereenese are so great stretching back to their early days that Dany is fully justified if she passed judgment and did to them what God did to Sodom and Gommorah.  Slaving is not just stealing away someone's freedom and making them work for free.  The fighting pits are hell.  The plaza of punishment is a place of pain, torture, and death.  The temptation to reduce that hellish city to ashes is tempting but there will be nowhere to go.  Mass execution of the master class is the second best move and what I would counsel to do.

I mean, I'm all for comparing fictional characters, but let's leave the bible fandom out of this one please.

 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

21 minutes ago, John Doe said:

You guys realize Dany isn't much better than slavers, right? She wants to make war on a kingdom because she was born to the last ruler of it. Would she abolish serfdom? Would she stop demanding people's loyalty because of her family name? If not, she's not much better than slave masters demanding to rule because they view it as their birth right.

I mean, I'm all for comparing fictional characters, but let's leave the bible fandom out of this one please.

 

 

I think she will demand loyalty because she has dragons. No one would've bent to Aegon if he didn't have them, also.

Aerys the mad was smashed since he didn't have any. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

54 minutes ago, John Doe said:

You guys realize Dany isn't much better than slavers, right? She wants to make war on a kingdom because she was born to the last ruler of it. Would she abolish serfdom? Would she stop demanding people's loyalty because of her family name? If not, she's not much better than slave masters demanding to rule because they view it as their birth right.

I mean, I'm all for comparing fictional characters, but let's leave the bible fandom out of this one please.

 

 

So just about nearly every noble charachter in Westeroes that includes all the Starks, Baratheons just about everyone is not much better than the slavers of Essos?

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So just about nearly every noble charachter in Westeroes that includes all the Starks, Baratheons just about everyone is not much better than the slavers of Essos?

Do you think serfdom is much better than slavery? It depends on that. 

[Van Gogh]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

You guys realize Dany isn't much better than slavers, right? She wants to make war on a kingdom because she was born to the last ruler of it. Would she abolish serfdom? Would she stop demanding people's loyalty because of her family name? If not, she's not much better than slave masters demanding to rule because they view it as their birth right.

I mean, I'm all for comparing fictional characters, but let's leave the bible fandom out of this one please.

 

 

How about you stop making excuses for slavery.  Ofcourse the great majority of former slaves are better off now than they were before Dany they came along.  Why do you think a lot of the pit fighters are fighting on Dany's side outside Meereen.  They may enjoy fighting but they certainly don't enjoy being owned. 

Taking down slavery is not easy.  It's the hardest reform that's ever been attempted in the world of aSoIaF.  Hundreds of thousands are free, thanks to Dany and her dragons.   Social change on that scale will not be easy especially when you have the former masters trying to bring it back.

The truth is, the problem at Slaver's Bay is the fault of the former masters because they refuse to give up their evil ways of slaving.  If they will get with the program and do the right thing, the moral thing, and accept the end of slavery things would be so much easier.  But no, they want to hold on to their evil system and they want to bring back slavery.  The masters are at fault to start with because slavery is wrong from the beginning.  All of the challenges at the Bay are their fault because they resists doing the right thing.

As far as Dany wanting to take back her kingdom.  That is no different from the Starks wanting to take back their castle and their lands.  No difference at all.  Demanding loyalty is something that all of the nobles in Westeros practice.  So you don't think the Starks demanded loyalty from their banners because of their name/family.  They sure did.  They dragged their bannermen to war, twice in the last 20 years because the Stark parents couldn't manage to properly raise obedient, honorable kids.  That's right.  Lyanna and Brandon were losers who caused the Starks to call their banners to war.  Robb called his banners to war because Mom chose to arrest the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom instead of taking the matter to the right authority, the king.  Unlike the Starks, Dany is actually trying to help people and free them from slavery.  The Starks were just selfish shits who only wanted to look out for themselves.  Dany is at least working to free as many people as she can. 

[the trees have eyes]

33 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Do you think serfdom is much better than slavery? It depends on that. 

When Jorah Mormont tried to sell some poachers into slavery Ned Stark went to administer justice by removing his head.  Maybe the poachers were poor serfs suffering after a bad harvest and trying to supplement their diet with deer from the lord's private forest and their lot was not an easy one but they had some rights and the law demanded Ned intervene and punish Jorah.

What happened in Meereen when the Grand Masters decided to crucify 163 children on mileposts and disembowel them for no other reason that to taunt an enemy?

Yeah, I think serfdom is better than slavery as you have some protections and however flawed the feudal model you have a relationship with your lord that is suppoed to have reciprocal duties.  Property doesn't have any protections and can be disposed of however and whenever the owner sees fit.  That's quite a difference.

[The Sunland Lord]

1 hour ago, Helena Kyle said:

How about you stop making excuses for slavery.  Ofcourse the great majority of former slaves are better off now than they were before Dany they came along.  Why do you think a lot of the pit fighters are fighting on Dany's side outside Meereen.  They may enjoy fighting but they certainly don't enjoy being owned. 

Taking down slavery is not easy.  It's the hardest reform that's ever been attempted in the world of aSoIaF.  Hundreds of thousands are free, thanks to Dany and her dragons.   Social change on that scale will not be easy especially when you have the former masters trying to bring it back.

The truth is, the problem at Slaver's Bay is the fault of the former masters because they refuse to give up their evil ways of slaving.  If they will get with the program and do the right thing, the moral thing, and accept the end of slavery things would be so much easier.  But no, they want to hold on to their evil system and they want to bring back slavery.  The masters are at fault to start with because slavery is wrong from the beginning.  All of the challenges at the Bay are their fault because they resists doing the right thing.

As far as Dany wanting to take back her kingdom.  That is no different from the Starks wanting to take back their castle and their lands.  No difference at all.  Demanding loyalty is something that all of the nobles in Westeros practice.  So you don't think the Starks demanded loyalty from their banners because of their name/family.  They sure did.  They dragged their bannermen to war, twice in the last 20 years because the Stark parents couldn't manage to properly raise obedient, honorable kids.  That's right.  Lyanna and Brandon were losers who caused the Starks to call their banners to war.  Robb called his banners to war because Mom chose to arrest the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom instead of taking the matter to the right authority, the king.  Unlike the Starks, Dany is actually trying to help people and free them from slavery.  The Starks were just selfish shits who only wanted to look out for themselves.  Dany is at least working to free as many people as she can. 

I agree to an extent. Wanting your throne/castle back is justified. Although, if Targs didn't have dragons, they would've never ruled Westeros. We saw that their regime could be overthrown, because they didn't inspire loyalty. A claim without a just rule in time will be proven to be fruitless. 

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

How about you stop making excuses for slavery.  Ofcourse the great majority of former slaves are better off now than they were before Dany they came along.  Why do you think a lot of the pit fighters are fighting on Dany's side outside Meereen.  They may enjoy fighting but they certainly don't enjoy being owned. 

Taking down slavery is not easy.  It's the hardest reform that's ever been attempted in the world of aSoIaF.  Hundreds of thousands are free, thanks to Dany and her dragons.   Social change on that scale will not be easy especially when you have the former masters trying to bring it back.

The truth is, the problem at Slaver's Bay is the fault of the former masters because they refuse to give up their evil ways of slaving.  If they will get with the program and do the right thing, the moral thing, and accept the end of slavery things would be so much easier.  But no, they want to hold on to their evil system and they want to bring back slavery.  The masters are at fault to start with because slavery is wrong from the beginning.  All of the challenges at the Bay are their fault because they resists doing the right thing.

As far as Dany wanting to take back her kingdom.  That is no different from the Starks wanting to take back their castle and their lands.  No difference at all.  Demanding loyalty is something that all of the nobles in Westeros practice.  So you don't think the Starks demanded loyalty from their banners because of their name/family.  They sure did.  They dragged their bannermen to war, twice in the last 20 years because the Stark parents couldn't manage to properly raise obedient, honorable kids.  That's right.  Lyanna and Brandon were losers who caused the Starks to call their banners to war.  Robb called his banners to war because Mom chose to arrest the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom instead of taking the matter to the right authority, the king.  Unlike the Starks, Dany is actually trying to help people and free them from slavery.  The Starks were just selfish shits who only wanted to look out for themselves.  Dany is at least working to free as many people as she can. 

I'm not excusing slavery in any way in my posts. Moreover, a ton of people have it worse under Dany than they had it as slaves. A bunch of people tried to sell themselves back into slavery after Dany freed them. Tyrion says some slaves have it better than most serfs back in Westeros. Most of the pit fighters want Dany to reopen the pits so they can continue fighting. It's not as black and white as you make it seem, and there are no easy solutions. 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

When Jorah Mormont tried to sell some poachers into slavery Ned Stark went to administer justice by removing his head.  Maybe the poachers were poor serfs suffering after a bad harvest and trying to supplement their diet with deer from the lord's private forest and their lot was not an easy one but they had some rights and the law demanded Ned intervene and punish Jorah.

What happened in Meereen when the Grand Masters decided to crucify 163 children on mileposts and disembowel them for no other reason that to taunt an enemy?

Yeah, I think serfdom is better than slavery as you have some protections and however flawed the feudal model you have a relationship with your lord that is suppoed to have reciprocal duties.  Property doesn't have any protections and can be disposed of however and whenever the owner sees fit.  That's quite a difference.

Ok, that's a legit counter argument. I'm just saying that maybe people shouldn't judge the characters solely by the system that's in place because it sucks almost everywhere, except maybe for Braavos. I'd instead judge them by their individual quality, like some Masters may treat their slaves decently just like some lords treat their smallfolk decently, and the other way around. The thing about Slaver's Bay in my opinion is that we only see the assholes. Imagine if the only westerosi lord we knew was Roose Bolton, our impression of their system would be much different. There may be the Ned Starks among the Slave Masters just like there are the Roose Boltons, even though they'd be a minority.

What happened in Mereen was terrible and I don't think Dany made a mistake when she punished that, but I still think Dany should have at least tried to determine the guilt of the people she was killing there. 

[thor2006]

3 minutes ago, John Doe said:

I'm not excusing slavery in any way in my posts. Moreover, a ton of people have it worse under Dany than they had it as slaves. A bunch of people tried to sell themselves back into slavery after Dany freed them. Tyrion says some slaves have it better than most serfs back in Westeros. Most of the pit fighters want Dany to reopen the pits so they can continue fighting. It's not as black and white as you make it seem, and there are no easy solutions. 

Ok, that's a legit counter argument. I'm just saying that maybe people shouldn't judge the characters solely by the system that's in place because it sucks almost everywhere, except maybe for Braavos. I'd instead judge them by their individual quality, like some Masters may treat their slaves decently just like some lords treat their smallfolk decently, and the other way around. The thing about Slaver's Bay in my opinion is that we only see the assholes. Imagine if the only westerosi lord we knew was Roose Bolton, our impression of their system would be much different. There may be the Ned Starks among the Slave Masters just like there are the Roose Boltons, even though they'd be a minority.

What happened in Mereen was terrible and I don't think Dany made a mistake when she punished that, but I still think Dany should have at least tried to determine the guilt of the people she was killing there. 

And a lot of people wanted to continue to be slaves after the Civil War or other countries that abolished slavery, but that is not an argument for slavery renaming as an institution or an indictment about the wicked Abraham Lincoln and other abolitionists .

[John Doe]

10 minutes ago, thor2006 said:

And a lot of people wanted to continue to be slaves after the Civil War or other countries that abolished slavery, but that is not an argument for slavery renaming as an institution or an indictment about the wicked Abraham Lincoln and other abolitionists .

Lincoln didn't become president because it was his birthright. Under a Dany rule, he would've probably been too busy being tied to his land to even have any sort of political career.