Rhaenyra: Traitor or legitimate heir?

[Traverys]

Discussion thread.

I've always seen Rhaenyra as a victim of historical interpretation considering she lost the Dance of the Dragons (i.e., history is written by the winners). But I read more and more in threads that people tend to view the opposite: she was Maegor with teets and a woman who overreached.

Even Stannis has an interesting interpretation that seems to lose the nuances of :

"Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."

 

Thoughts? Loose discussion of the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 AC would likely also end up being discussed here.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

 I think Viserys I could have done more to prevent what happened. I also think the Hightowers and Daemon made things much worse and threw fuel on the fire as it were. The seeds of war were planted long before Viserys died, and he either chose to ignore it or didn't see it.

[Traverys]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 I think Viserys I could have done more to prevent what happened. I also think the Hightowers and Daemon made things much worse and threw fuel on the fire as it were. The seeds of war were planted long before Viserys died, and he either chose to ignore it or didn't see it.

I also usually place a lot of the blame on Viserys I. Maybe I need to review his rule again to get a better picture of his personality...

One thing that should have disturbed him a little is that the Great Council (101 AC). Not only did they decide he was king, they did so based on the fact hat the male bloodline should take precedent over female (Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was), even if said female has closer blood proximity to the king. So the same council that made him king also set a strong precedent for primogeniture.

[Curled Finger]

I can't blame Viserys.  He took all the proper measures to ensure his first born was recognized as his heir.  It isn't as though Rhaenyra didn't have plenty of support.  

Rhaenyra was neither a traitor nor usurper. 

 Prince Aegon was with a paramour when he was found. At first, the prince refused to be a part of his mother’s plans. “My sister is the heir, not me,” he said. “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?” Only when Ser Criston convinced him that the princess must surely execute him and his brothers should she don the crown did Aegon waver. “Whilst any trueborn Targaryen yet lives, no Strong can ever hope to sit the Iron Throne,” Cole said. “Rhaenyra has no choice but to take your heads if she wishes her bastards to rule after her.” It was this, and only this, that persuaded Aegon to accept the crown that the small council was offering him,  TPATQ

Allicent and Otto went to great pains to act in direct violation of the king's will.  The single person who spoke for Rhaenyra after Viserys died was killed during a small council meeting.   The Hightower Targs were vicious.  

Rhaenyra became increasingly unstable as her children died.  Her battle wins and ultimate taking of the Iron Throne speak to her single-minded obsession with being Queen. She gave absolutely everything to defend her title.  She was groomed to rule.  That said,  it's clear that Rhaenyra was well on her way to utter insanity by the end of the book.  In the end she really did win.   Her son survived and ruled--the 1st Targ we know of who was terrified of dragons.  

[HoodedCrow]

I blame the uppity Queen Maud, and her influence on George’s writing.

 

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

Discussion thread.

I've always seen Rhaenyra as a victim of historical interpretation considering she lost the Dance of the Dragons (i.e., history is written by the winners). But I read more and more in threads that people tend to view the opposite: she was Maegor with teets and a woman who overreached.

Even Stannis has an interesting interpretation that seems to lose the nuances of :

"Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."

 

Thoughts? Loose discussion of the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 AC would likely also end up being discussed here.

 

it depends on if the king is above such things as custom and tradition or if he must bend to them. If the king is above them then he can pick his heir and Rhaenyra is the heir he picked. If he is not above these things then the firstborn son comes before a firstborn daughter and so Aegon II should be the king.

So far must people I've seen on the forum tends to be that the king's relation to tradition and custom is whatever they feel it should be at a specific moment. Many people will defend Viserys as being above tradition and able to pick Rhanyra for his queen, but will not say that Aerys II is not above traditions and shouldn't be allowed to roast a bunch of guys with fire as his champion in a "trial by arms".

[The Bard of Banefort]

This is actually one of the few sources of contention that I have with regards to how George writes women. Both Rhaenyra and Cersei, the two women to have come closest to ruling over Westeros without having to do so through their husbands, are written as incompetent tyrants. Clearly, we're supposed to root for Daenerys to be the one "true" queen who will rule the realm successfully, but I don't find Dany to be a particularly likable or engrossing female character. She has a massive fanbase, but despite her good intentions, I don't find her to be a preferable alternative to Stannis or Robb or even Doran. As others on this site have mentioned in the past, she reads more like a fantasy dream girl than a viable ruler. So despite George's many attempts to illustrate how women are as capable as men, when it comes to the most coveted seat in Westeros--the Iron Throne--the women have all been woefully lackluster. 

In terms of Rhaenyra, however, she clearly was the rightful heir to the throne. Even Maegor had named his step-daughter/niece, Aerea, as his heir ahead of Aenys' sons, so the concept of having a woman possibly sit the Iron Throne was never totally out of the question. Viserys required his family and lords to proclaim Rhaenyra the heir-apparent while he was still alive, and they complied. Crowning Aegon after Viserys' death was treason.

There is something to be said about Viserys' decision to marry Rhaenyra to Laenor, however. Laenor was clearly not interested in women, and while one could make the argument that given the circumstances of this world, the lack of attraction between the couple hardly mattered, there must have been other ways Viserys could have strengthened the bonds between the two houses. For one, houses Targaryen and Velaryon had already intermarried several times, and if Viserys really wanted to secure Rhaenyra's claim, he should have betrothed her to a member of a different powerful house--a Tyrell or a Lannister, for instance. 

Now time for a really unpopular opinion: Jaehaerys the Conciliator majorly contributed to Westeros' inequality towards women. As modern readers, we are bound to view the Great Council as an example of democracy and, therefore, evidence of Jaehaerys' genius. As his wife, Alysanne, reminded everyone, however, it also basically stood as a proclamation that women could and should be robbed of their birthright in favor of an uncle or cousin. (Hell, Rhaenys wasn't even given an opportunity to put forth her own claim; that was through her son, Laenor). I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the "hero" houses of the series (Stark, Baratheon, Blackwood, Manderly) supported Rhaenys/Laenor's claim instead of Viserys'. There's a message there. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

She was the rightful heir and Aegon should have stuck with his initial instinct that taking the crown was morally wrong. But then we'd not have the story and I like TP&TQ 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Allicent and Otto went to great pains to act in direct violation of the king's will.  The single person who spoke for Rhaenyra after Viserys died was killed during a small council meeting.

Which is why Viserys I has to take part of the blame. He already dismissed Otto as his Hand once for pestering him to name his nephews as heirs ahead of Rhaenyra. Why bring him back when you know he wants Aegon II on the Throne? If Viserys doesn't outlive Otto Hghtower then Otto, as Hand of the King, is in a position to take control of King's Landing for his kin. 

I see Otto Hightower as a power hungry ladder climber who was going to make his grandson King or die trying.

In the end Daemon sure didn't help Rhaenyra either in my opinion. He was a nasty man who made crude and erroneous claims about the good  men and women of the Vale. Had Rhaenyra not been named heir to the Throne I highly doubt Daemon would have married her. He took advantage of her and used her for her claim, in my opinion. He truly was a rogue in every sense of the word.

Criston Cole was a wild card. I wouldn't be surprised if Alicent Hightower seduced him and they were having an affair, which is why he gave his full support to the Hightowers. Viserys I missed a lot of things that were going on apparently, I can see this being one of them. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 hours ago, Traverys said:

Even Stannis has an interesting interpretation that seems to lose the nuances of :

"Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."

It's unsurprising that would be Stannis's view of history, given his attitude towards women, and general stuffy orthodoxy with regards to the law. 

I think the point about such contested succession issues is that by definition they are not clear-cut. A second son obviously does not have a superior claim to a first son, and therefore there is no real dispute there and if he claims the IT he's obviously a traitor. When the eldest son by a second marriage claims precedence there's obviously a dispute there. I think at that point, the most important question for me is not who was right in the rather obscure debates about precedence, but overall how the succession is handled to prevent that turning into war. 

On that, for me both sides share equal blame, for not recognizing that a civil war with dragons on both sides was going to be terrible, not just for the 7K but for the Targaryen dynasty, and to find another way through. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Rhaenyra was not a "traitor". The problem is that there was precedence for both her and her brother being legitimate contenders on different grounds. It was all her father's fault, he should have expected that something like this might happen, therefore he should have made different decisions regarding his second marriage, especially when Viserys himself benefited from being male and got to be king over his older sister.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Traverys said:

Discussion thread.

I've always seen Rhaenyra as a victim of historical interpretation considering she lost the Dance of the Dragons (i.e., history is written by the winners). But I read more and more in threads that people tend to view the opposite: she was Maegor with teets and a woman who overreached.

Even Stannis has an interesting interpretation that seems to lose the nuances of :

"Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."

 

Thoughts? Loose discussion of the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 AC would likely also end up being discussed here.

 

Rhaenyra was the legitimate heir.  She was named as such by her father the King, made Princess of Dragonstone, and the major lords swore oaths which acknowledged this. Even after the fighting began, three Great Houses, and most of the tenants in chief in the Crownlands acknowledged her as Queen.

If the Hightowers had believed that the law was on their side, they would have called a Great Council to debate the succession, following Viserys' death, rather than launching a coup, and murdering Lord Beesbury.  Their behaviour demonstrates that they knew that their case was weak.

[Adam Yozza]

Rhaenyra was the legitimate heir. For most of her life, Viserys made that very clear. Aegon II hiimself acknowledges this when Alicent first presents the idea of taking the crown to him and he only gives in because he's manipulated into thinking that Rhaenyra would kill the entire Hightower-Targ brood if he didn't.

The Great Council's; both of them; set a precedent but King's don't have to follow precedent. Example; Maegor is recorded as being a legitimate King so according to the precedent set by him, Daemon was the rightful heir. So since succesion isn't a law set in stone, the King can do what he wants in regard to it and his word supercedes all. If Viserys says Rhaenyra was the rightful heir then she was. It's as simple as that.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

19 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

The Great Council's; both of them; set a precedent but King's don't have to follow precedent. Example; Maegor is recorded as being a legitimate King so according to the precedent set by him, Daemon was the rightful heir. So since succesion isn't a law set in stone, the King can do what he wants in regard to it and his word supercedes all. If Viserys says Rhaenyra was the rightful heir then she was. It's as simple as that.

But the fact that the Dance of the Dragond happened proves that it isn't so. If is was indeed as simple as that, everybody would just accept Rhaenyra and no war would happen. The mere fact that there were enough lords to support the other side indicates that it's more complicate, and that both sides had claim to legitimacy.

Also telling is the fact that both sides needed to make deals with the lords in order to gain their support, or appeal to their own aligned interests. "I am the rightful" was not enough for neither of them.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If the Hightowers had believed that the law was on their side, they would have called a Great Council to debate the succession, following Viserys' death, rather than launching a coup, and murdering Lord Beesbury.  Their behaviour demonstrates that they knew that their case was weak.

Rhaenyra didn't call for a Great Council either. I think both sides were too quick to resort to violence. 

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, Traverys said:

Discussion thread.

I've always seen Rhaenyra as a victim of historical interpretation considering she lost the Dance of the Dragons (i.e., history is written by the winners). But I read more and more in threads that people tend to view the opposite: she was Maegor with teets and a woman who overreached.

Even Stannis has an interesting interpretation that seems to lose the nuances of :

"Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth... traitors have always paid with their lives ... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."

 

Thoughts? Loose discussion of the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 AC would likely also end up being discussed here.

King Viserys I chose Rhaenyra to be his heir and successor, and even after Aegon was born to him and had lived more than twenty years, Viserys never replaced Rhaenyra as his chosen heir and successor. She was without question the legitimate heir.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 hours ago, Traverys said:

I also usually place a lot of the blame on Viserys I. Maybe I need to review his rule again to get a better picture of his personality...

One thing that should have disturbed him a little is that the Great Council (101 AC). Not only did they decide he was king, they did so based on the fact hat the male bloodline should take precedent over female (Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was), even if said female has closer blood proximity to the king. So the same council that made him king also set a strong precedent for primogeniture.

As a shell of his former self in his last years, Jaehaerys I chose to invest the lords of the realm with the power to choose his heir and successor in the Great Council. He did not invest them with the power to choose or dispute any other Targaryen king's chosen heir. Rhaenyra was Viserys I's chosen heir.

And Viserys I didn't have many options after his wife and newborn son died. At the time, if I recall correctly, the only other living male line Targaryen male was his ambitious brother Daemon, who had considered himself Viserys I's heir, and ended up being the father of every Targaryen king after Aegon II anyway.

By the time a son was born to Viserys I, he had already chosen Rhaenyra as his heir, and the lords of the realm had already sworn fealty to her as such. He couldn't have gone back on that choice without repercussions even if he had wanted to name Aegon, which doesn't seem to have been the case.

And in fact, at one point Otto Hightower himself wrote to his Lord Hightower brother that Daemon must not be allowed to ascend the Iron Throne, and was a supporter of Rhaenyra succeeding her father. So he obviously was not dogmatically "Team Primogeniture," so much as he was "Team Never Daemon," and was an ambitious man that came to have Targaryen grandsons of his own.

So while I have no doubt that there were lords who unflinchingly saw or wished to push the Great Council as an iron precedent, we see that even the head of Rhaenyra's opposition didn't see it that way years earlier. And we see that Rhaenyra actually received a lot more support as chosen heir of King Viserys I than Laenor is rumored to have received as a mere candidate in the Great Council.

King Viserys I chose Rhaenyra as his heir when he had no other children, but he stuck with that choice even after Aegon and other sons were born to him, and for twenty plus years of Aegon's life King Viserys never replaced Rhaenyra as heir chosen heir and successor.

[Traverys]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This is actually one of the few sources of contention that I have with regards to how George writes women. Both Rhaenyra and Cersei, the two women to have come closest to ruling over Westeros without having to do so through their husbands, are written as incompetent tyrants. Clearly, we're supposed to root for Daenerys to be the one "true" queen who will rule the realm successfully, but I don't find Dany to be a particularly likable or engrossing female character. She has a massive fanbase, but despite her good intentions, I don't find her to be a preferable alternative to Stannis or Robb or even Doran. As others on this site have mentioned in the past, she reads more like a fantasy dream girl than a viable ruler. So despite George's many attempts to illustrate how women are as capable as men, when it comes to the most coveted seat in Westeros--the Iron Throne--the women have all been woefully lackluster. 

In terms of Rhaenyra, however, she clearly was the rightful heir to the throne. Even Maegor had named his step-daughter/niece, Aerea, as his heir ahead of Aenys' sons, so the concept of having a a women possibly sit the Iron Throne was never totally out of the question. Viserys required his family and lords to proclaim Rhaenyra the heir-apparent while he was still alive, and they complied. Crowing Aegon after Viserys' death was treason.

There is something to be said about Viserys' decision to marry Rhaenyra to Laenor, however. Laenor was clearly not interested in women, and while one could make the argument that given the circumstances of this world, the lack of attraction between the couple hardly mattered, there must have been other ways Viserys could have strengthened the bonds between the two houses. For one, houses Targaryen and Velaryon had already intermarried several times, and if Viserys really wanted to secure Rhaenyra's claim, he should have betrothed her to a member of a different powerful house--a Tyrell or a Lannister, for instance. 

Now time for a really unpopular opinion: Jaehaerys the Conciliator majorly contributed to Westeros' inequality towards women. As modern readers, we are bound to view the Great Council as an example of democracy and, therefore, evidence of Jaehaerys' genius. As his wife, Alysanne, reminded everyone, however, it also basically stood as a proclamation that women could and should be robbed of their birthright in favor of an uncle or cousin. (Hell, Rhaenys wasn't even given an opportunity to put forth her own claim; that was through her son, Laenor). I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the "hero" houses of the series (Stark, Baratheon, Blackwood, Manderly) supported Rhaenys/Laenor's claim instead of Viserys'. There's a message there. 

I'm with you on his representation of female rulers, and his "answer" (i.e., Daenerys) not really being a woman that stands out as exemplary.

I believe he married Rhaenyra to Laenor to try and ease the tensions between the branches. Some would compliment the political move, but, as you pointed out, Laenor's sexuality definitely threw a wrench in that plan. He also cast huge doubts about the parentage of Rhaenyra's heirs. I'm sure more than a few people found the idea of potential bastards (born of cuckoldry, no less) leading them one day distasteful.

On Rhaenyra's part, I think her moving to Dragonstone made sense on paper (the heir was always Prince of Dragonstone)... but the Queen wasn't secretive in her desire to see her son(s) sitting on the throne. Leaving King's Landing was a huge faux pas, in my opinion. I would argue that the outcome was fairly predictable. She could have at least moved back when her father was clearly in ill health towards the end of his life.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

If the Hightowers had believed that the law was on their side, they would have called a Great Council to debate the succession, following Viserys' death, rather than launching a coup, and murdering Lord Beesbury.  Their behaviour demonstrates that they knew that their case was weak

Interesting. I actually ascribe to the idea the Hightowers are part of an anti-Targaryen/magic/dragon conspiracy. I just don't really know how all the puzzle pieces fit together in the case of the Dance of the Dragons. But perhaps the Queen was acting on more than just greed, but intentionally pitting the Targaryens against each other.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This is actually one of the few sources of contention that I have with regards to how George writes women. Both Rhaenyra and Cersei, the two women to have come closest to ruling over Westeros without having to do so through their husbands, are written as incompetent tyrants. Clearly, we're supposed to root for Daenerys to be the one "true" queen who will rule the realm successfully, but I don't find Dany to be a particularly likable or engrossing female character. She has a massive fanbase, but despite her good intentions, I don't find her to be a preferable alternative to Stannis or Robb or even Doran. As others on this site have mentioned in the past, she reads more like a fantasy dream girl than a viable ruler. So despite George's many attempts to illustrate how women are as capable as men, when it comes to the most coveted seat in Westeros--the Iron Throne--the women have all been woefully lackluster. 

In terms of Rhaenyra, however, she clearly was the rightful heir to the throne. Even Maegor had named his step-daughter/niece, Aerea, as his heir ahead of Aenys' sons, so the concept of having a a women possibly sit the Iron Throne was never totally out of the question. Viserys required his family and lords to proclaim Rhaenyra the heir-apparent while he was still alive, and they complied. Crowing Aegon after Viserys' death was treason.

There is something to be said about Viserys' decision to marry Rhaenyra to Laenor, however. Laenor was clearly not interested in women, and while one could make the argument that given the circumstances of this world, the lack of attraction between the couple hardly mattered, there must have been other ways Viserys could have strengthened the bonds between the two houses. For one, houses Targaryen and Velaryon had already intermarried several times, and if Viserys really wanted to secure Rhaenyra's claim, he should have betrothed her to a member of a different powerful house--a Tyrell or a Lannister, for instance. 

Now time for a really unpopular opinion: Jaehaerys the Conciliator majorly contributed to Westeros' inequality towards women. As modern readers, we are bound to view the Great Council as an example of democracy and, therefore, evidence of Jaehaerys' genius. As his wife, Alysanne, reminded everyone, however, it also basically stood as a proclamation that women could and should be robbed of their birthright in favor of an uncle or cousin. (Hell, Rhaenys wasn't even given an opportunity to put forth her own claim; that was through her son, Laenor). I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the "hero" houses of the series (Stark, Baratheon, Blackwood, Manderly) supported Rhaenys/Laenor's claim instead of Viserys'. There's a message there. 

I could not agree more with all of this.  Well stated.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Which is why Viserys I has to take part of the blame. He already dismissed Otto as his Hand once for pestering him to name his nephews as heirs ahead of Rhaenyra. Why bring him back when you know he wants Aegon II on the Throne? If Viserys doesn't outlive Otto Hghtower then Otto, as Hand of the King, is in a position to take control of King's Landing for his kin. 

I see Otto Hightower as a power hungry ladder climber who was going to make his grandson King or die trying.

In the end Daemon sure didn't help Rhaenyra either in my opinion. He was a nasty man who made crude and erroneous claims about the good  men and women of the Vale. Had Rhaenyra not been named heir to the Throne I highly doubt Daemon would have married her. He took advantage of her and used her for her claim, in my opinion. He truly was a rogue in every sense of the word.

Criston Cole was a wild card. I wouldn't be surprised if Alicent Hightower seduced him and they were having an affair, which is why he gave his full support to the Hightowers. Viserys I missed a lot of things that were going on apparently, I can see this being one of them. 

It's funny how we share the same feelings regarding this, but see it differently.   I agree with every word, Ralph.   If I was king and officially issued an edict I would expect that proclamation to be upheld.   I am, after all, king.   It seems to me that Viserys was very old, possibly becoming senile or suffering any of the "old age" maladies that make a person a different person.    Yes, bringing Otto back was a failure--but I'm not sure Viserys was even part of the decision as Allicent sure seemed to hold a lot of influence over the throne and its advisers.   

Criston Cole was indeed the wild card at the onset of the DOD.   I have read opinions that Cole had an affair with Rhaenyra and she dumped him, shocked him or he didn't want Daemon's seconds.   Personally, it makes more sense that Cole actually was involved with Allicent though a prior interest in Rhaenyra is clear.   Looks like the Black and the Green queens both ended up with a couple of losers.  I would have much preferred to read Daemon with Allicent as I think they would be well met.   I will argue that as a dragon rider (and father of bonded dragon riders) and fierce fighter, Daemon was instrumental to Rhaenyra.  

The Princess and the Queen is one of my favorite stories to listen to and read.  It is a devastating tale of greed and waste.   That ugly throne could not have been worth losing all the dragons and dragon riders, not to mention people from all over the realm.  Such is the folly of war.