What if Walder Frey insisted that Robb wed and bed Roslin before crossing?

[Angel Eyes]

If Walder Frey had forced Robb to marry Roslin before crossing, would he have risked the Red Wedding, among other factors that led to Robb’s downfall? If Robb got Roslin pregnant, would Walder risk her and his grandchild getting caught in the crossfire?

[The Sunland Lord]

It's something that Robb himself should've done.

That way he'd show everyone that he means business. 

[Faera]

I very much doubt that Roslin would have physically travelled with Robb. She very likely would have stayed at Riverrun once the Battle of the Whispering Wood was up. There is a chance that Roslin might have travelled up to Winterfell, I suppose, though that would have planted her right in the middle of Ramsay's coup. which leaves everything wide open to have happened exactly how it did in the books, as there is a good chance she would have been captured and even killed by Ramsay, with the blame being put on Theon (as with Bran and Rickon's "deaths"). Still, there is no reason why she would go straight North after the wedding. After all, Catelyn didn't travel to Winterfell until after the Rebellion was over. 

If nothing else changed, then Robb would still have lost the Karstarks and Roose Bolton would still have been trying to mess things up from behind the scenes in order to reap the benefits from the Lannisters. Tywin would have found some other means of disposing of Robb as there is still a good chance that Stannis's plot to take King's Landing would have failed, as the crux of that battle was connected to little things like the weather and whatnot but also Robb's own failure to share his intentions with Edmure. That was really the big issue, there. Had he simply done that, he might have succeeded in luring Tywin back towards the Westerlands. 

The biggest problem really is that the Tyrells would still have not taken a side and are unlikely to want to ally with Stannis. There is a chance, for that reason, that they might ally with the Lannisters by offering Margaery to Jaime (seeing as Stannis would almost certainly have killed Cersei, Joffrey and possibly Tommen if he could get his hands on him). We are presuming, after all, that Cat still let Jaime go with Brienne as the events of Winterfell very likely would have still happened.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Angel Eyes,

The thing is, Lord Walder trusted Robb to keep to his word and to honor his oath.  Most nobleman would keep his word.  Robb is a sad exception but Walder had no way of knowing that when they first made the deal.  The Freys were sincere and they committed to Robb.  Hell they even lost their heir who fought courageously for Robb. 

The Red Wedding happened because Robb broke his oath.  Lord Walder had no obligations to keep his words to someone like Robb who proved he had no honor to begin with.  Say Roslyn was presented to Robb.  Robb could have fallen in love with her and there would be no betrayal on Robb's part and the RW would not happen.  The RW happened because (a) Robb broke his oaths and insulted the Frey, (b) Robb and the Starks started making stupid decisions that was going to lose them the war and the only way to bail out of that ship is to do service to the Lannisters.  Walder had to buy back into good terms with Tywin and he had to end the rebellion.  Walder is a shrewd man and he planned a way to get the job done while minimizing his own family's casualties.  Walder would not betray Robb for b alone, but because of a, Walder already hated Robb.

[Lefty0024]

I think there is also the possibility that if Robb wed Roslyn then she would have gone north to Winterfell with the party that brought Big Walder and Little Walder north. In that case there would have been a much larger contingent going with her, possibly even a handful of spare Frey's Old Walder wanted to clear out of the Twins. That would probably mean that Winterfell would be better defended (I am assuming more people would have stayed to protect the possibly pregnant Queen of the North) and may not fall to Theon and his 20 men. That would be a game changer and we'd be looking at a very different story if Winterfell doesn't fall.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

When the Tyrells joined the Crown and Lannisters the Houses of the Riverlands were all but doomed. Robb could take his army back North and use Moat Callin and the harsh winter to possibly defend the North from such an alliance. The Riverlands though could not be defended with just the North/Riverland armies. They border too many Kingdoms that they are at war with and lack a Moat Callin/Princes' Pass type of choke point on every side.

Would Walder Frey want to potentially risk a siege against the Tyrell/Lannister armies because one of his many daughters/granddaughters is married to a man in open rebellion? I don't think so. This is the same guy who held back his army during Robert's Rebellion.

[zandru]

Robb's "comforting" and marriage to Jeyne Westerling was just the pretext. Old Walder was being pressured by Tywin Lannister about his treasonous support for the Young Wolf - and we all know how credible Tywin's threats can be. Meanwhile, Robb Stark was on a downward trend, having lost Winterfell and the North by his absence and the ugliness with the Karstarks. Walder would have found some reason to kill Robb and take out his army; Robb's dalliance just served as a plausible excuse. Had Robb "wedded & bedded" one of the Frey horde, some other excuse would have been devised - maybe "she's STILL not pregnant, and you had that one whole marriage night!!" or something. (A little moon tea could see to that one...)

Sure, Walder was pissed about Robb reneging on part of the toll payment (that's all it was) and the Freys not getting onto the Northern line of succession. The fear of Lord Tywin's reprisals was what made the Red Wedding Walder's best option. Well, now all Freys are being hunted down like the slimy rats they are by Beric Dondarrion and many of like philosophy. Was it worth it? Probably. It would take a lot to do worse than Tywin Lannister's armies, augmented by everyone loyal to King Joffrey (later Tommen).

[aryagonnakill#2]

It was not a single thing that ruined Robb, it was a series of things done by both him and his father, as well as bad luck and magic.  Therefore there is no 1 thing that if changed would have changed the outcome for him.

[zandru]

25 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It was not a single thing that ruined Robb, it was a series of things done by both him and his father, as well as bad luck and magic. 

This.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Walder would have found some reason to kill Robb and take out his army; Robb's dalliance just served as a plausible excuse. Had Robb "wedded & bedded" one of the Frey horde, some other excuse would have been devised - maybe "she's STILL not pregnant, and you had that one whole marriage night!!" or something. (A little moon tea could see to that one...)

So Spake Martin:

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We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

Walder probably would have eventually aligned with Tywin because of the changing conditions of war, but GRRM indicates that the violence of the Red Wedding is due to Robb marrying Jeyne. Walder might instead have advised Robb to surrender or tried to capture him for Tywin (like Catelyn was supposed to be taken prisoner during the Red Wedding).

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, now all Freys are being hunted down like the slimy rats they are by Beric Dondarrion and many of like philosophy.

FYI, Beric dies three days after the Red Wedding, so that's being done by Lady Stoneheart.

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"Lady Catelyn?" Tears filled her eyes. "They said . . . they said that you were dead."

"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." (AFFC Brienne VIII)

 

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It was not a single thing that ruined Robb, it was a series of things done by both him and his father, as well as bad luck and magic.  Therefore there is no 1 thing that if changed would have changed the outcome for him.

yes there is one thing that ruined Robb and it had nothing to do with anything he did . The shadowbaby killing  Renly  was the one thing that ruined Robb , up to that point Robb was beating the Lannisters and was doing probably as good as you could imagine in the War ,even Tywin admitted that Robb and the Baratheons had him on the ropes . Renly was slowly bringing a massive army to lay siege to Kings Landing and Robb had driven Tywin out of most of the Riverlands and crushed two of his armies and was busy tearing up the Westerlands, cutting Tywin off from any reinforcements and supplies from there . If the shadowbaby does not kill Renly and Renly beats Stannis then what would Tywin do at that point? He's the one that's in serious trouble not Robb . 

 

Ser Kevan did as he was bid. Lord Tywin unrolled the leather, smoothing it flat. "Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners."

Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead."

[Jon Fossoway]

Would have certainly prevented the Red Wedding. But I doubt that even ol' lord Walder would have consented on letting that daughter go with a warring King, knowing his own House was on the line for siding with a rebel faction during a war with the Crown. If Robb lost the war, and were married to a, say, pregnant Roslin, it would have meant some political problems to House Frey. Not counting in that Frey would have to lend a lot of troops to Robb if the marriage was done early on. 

All in all, Walder Frey is an cunning politician.

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

If the alliance between Houses Frey, Tully, and Stark had remained intact they could have bargained for better terms with Tywin.  We know Tywin for a man willing to forgive as long as the former rebels bend their knees.  But this is conditional on Robb surrendering and swearing to take his ass back north with his tail hanging humbly low.  Robb was not going to do that.  Other provisions may come up, like Robb taking the black and Rickon will become someone's ward (ahem, hostage).  The north was never at any point independent and any chances of that will end.  The Starks were in the rebellion for keeps.  Walder may have been willing to suffer with the Starks in the beginning but after Robb betrayed him he saw the light.  I don't blame him.  Robb and the homeless Starks will start losing without Frey and Karstark support.  I don't think Walder though of Robb breaking his oath. Walder knew how valuable his resources were to the Starks.   A reasonably smart guy would know the stupidity of angering your powerful allies.  I guess Walder didn't think Robb was that stupid.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 12/20/2017 at 10:34 AM, Angel Eyes said:

If Walder Frey had forced Robb to marry Roslin before crossing, would he have risked the Red Wedding, among other factors that led to Robb’s downfall? If Robb got Roslin pregnant, would Walder risk her and his grandchild getting caught in the crossfire?

He would have had to find a septon to annul his marriage after he hooked up with Jeyne. Then the story continues as written  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

What if Walder Frey insisted that Robb wed and bed Roslin before crossing?

Hah, Walder would have been wise to do that.  Ask for payment before delivering the service.  I guess he trusted Robb to keep his oaths and we saw how wrong he was to trust him. 

On 12/21/2017 at 2:20 PM, King Merrett I Frey said:

All in all, Walder Frey is an cunning politician.

That he is and he learns his lessons well.  He never trusted Robb after the first betrayal. 

[Frey Kings]

The so called "honorable" House Stark should've followed Jon Aryn and Eddard's example by marrying who they were promised to. 

If Robb managed to not only consummate the marriage but impregnate Roslin at Riverrun it probably would've prevented a red wedding scenario. Doesn't mean that ot House Frey would  want to get out of a losing War. Disinhert Roslin? But Robb would've remembered that he already married somebodt and that means he can't do it again. 

[Victor Newman]

53 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

The so called "honorable" House Stark should've followed Jon Aryn and Eddard's example by marrying who they were promised to. 

The Starks are not any more honorable than most.  Ned probably was but the rest are not.  Rickard - is suspected of treason against his king; Brandon - threatened his king; Lyanna - ran off from her promise to Robert; Jon - broke his vows to the watch; Robb - broke his sworn promise to the Freys; Arya - cold-blooded murderer who joined a cult of death worshippers and dealers. 

If Robb managed to not only consummate the marriage but impregnate Roslin at Riverrun it probably would've prevented a red wedding scenario. Doesn't mean that ot House Frey would  want to get out of a losing War. Disinhert Roslin? But Robb would've remembered that he already married somebodt and that means he can't do it again. 

 

[thor2006]

Lyanna didn't promise to marry anyone. She was in the classical forced marriage with an unwilling bride.