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Varysblackfyre321

Did Tywin have to kill Rheagar's children

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 I recently got into a discussion with a gentleman on YT on whether or not Robert was right to try to do away with with pregnant  Dany( I was on the side of yes), and the gentleman asked me if I I would support Tywin's murder of Rheagar's children. In terms of practicality towards securing the place of house Lanister. I also argued, Tywin didn't order the rape  of Ellia Martell.

I've since changed my views; Tywinin's place considering he'd already given Robert the city, and I do believe now Tywin did order the mountain to rape and murder Ellia. This idea of him not thinking about Aery's biggest insult towards him(Ellia being give Rheagar),  due to him being busy and worried about Jamie is ludicrous.

The humiliation must have galled at him every day.

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My personal feeling is that Tywin did know that they would be murdered.  I don't think he explicitly ordered the Mountain to do it, but by sending the Mountain in, Tywin knew what he was getting.  Equally, I don't think he explicitly ordered the rape - I just don't think Tywin would have cared one way or the other.

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Did Tywin have to kill Rhaegar's children? No, of course not, but to get what he was after, namely a nice place in the new order of the realm, he had to give Robert something and killing Rhaegar's children allowed Robert to do not do it himself and so could keep his hands clean. Thus I think it was necessary for Tywin to get the royal marriage between Robert and Cersei and for him to fill the court with Lannisters.

As for Elia I am very much in the camp that Tywin didn't care one bit or another and simply let Gregor decide on his own. And we have seen plenty that Gregor Clegane does not need anyone's orders in order to hurt others. The Mountain didn't need Tywin's orders to rape the innkeeper's daughter and he didn't need orders to kill Ser Hugh or attempt to kill Loras. Gregor is a brute, a murderer and rapist but he surely is very capable of his own initiative.

And for a little beyond the topic I personally think that Tywin went to far with killing Rhaegar's children and letting Gregor have his way with Elia. What I would have done would have been to capture them, as Tyrion suggested, and then deliver to them to Robert. And its very possible that Tywin making this mark that the Lannisters have forever forsaken House Targaryen will come around to bite his legacy.

Alongside with Jaime killing Aerys and staning and forsaking his Kingsguard oaths. Keeping Jamie in the kIngsguard was surely a bad move by Robert. Jamie should have been sent back to Casterly Rock to wear a red cloak rather than a stained white one.

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5 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

 Keeping Jamie in the kIngsguard was surely a bad move by Robert. Jamie should have been sent back to Casterly Rock to wear a red cloak rather than a stained white one.

Bad PR, yes. And a liability.

Robert had no other good excuse to keep hold of his hostage. Sending Jaime to Wall would have meant offending Tywin and losing a hostage. Returning Jaime to Casterly Rock would have pleased Tywin but also meant losing the hostage.

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6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Did Tywin have to kill Rhaegar's children? No, of course not, but to get what he was after, namely a nice place in the new order of the realm, he had to give Robert something and killing Rhaegar's children allowed Robert to do not do it himself and so could keep his hands clean. Thus I think it was necessary for Tywin to get the royal marriage between Robert and Cersei and for him to fill the court with Lannisters.

Again He already delivered Kl and hes the richest man in westeroes. I dont think Robert much cared on how he was percieved for the murder considering he proudly tell anyone his genocidal views towards the targaryians. I mean he basically showed his approval of the act by never demanding justice at the very least ser gregore's head

As for Elia I am very much in the camp that Tywin didn't care one bit or another and simply let Gregor decide on his own. And we have seen plenty that Gregor Clegane does not need anyone's orders in order to hurt others. The Mountain didn't need Tywin's orders to rape the innkeeper's daughter and he didn't need orders to kill Ser Hugh or attempt to kill Loras. Yes the mutain never needs a excuse to rape or murderer too. But Tywin has used rape  as weapon of humilation  in the past. He made his own son participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's wife to teach the boy a lesson in respect. He never forgets a slight. And Ellia was the biggest slight he was ever dealt and forced to bear, he was made a mockery. Gregor is a brute, a murderer and rapist but he surely is very capable of his own initiative.

And for a little beyond the topic I personally think that Tywin went to far with killing Rhaegar's children and letting Gregor have his way with Elia. What I would have done would have been to capture them, as Tyrion suggested, and then deliver to them to Robert. And its very possible that Tywin making this mark that the Lannisters have forever forsaken House Targaryen will come around to bite his legacy.

Alongside with Jaime killing Aerys and staning and forsaking his Kingsguard oaths. Keeping Jamie in the kIngsguard was surely a bad move by Robert. Jamie should have been sent back to Casterly Rock to wear a red cloak rather than a stained white one.

 

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Bad PR, yes. And a liability.

Robert had no other good excuse to keep hold of his hostage. Sending Jaime to Wall would have meant offending Tywin and losing a hostage. Returning Jaime to Casterly Rock would have pleased Tywin but also meant losing the hostage. I mean Robert has Cersi and pressumbaly going to sire sons on her. That alone is worth enough for robert to get in line

 

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On 12/20/2017 at 5:01 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I recently got into a discussion with a gentleman on YT on whether or not Robert was right to try to do away with with pregnant  Dany( I was on the side of yes), and the gentleman asked me if I I would support Tywin's murder of Rheagar's children. In terms of practicality towards securing the place of house Lanister. I also argued, Tywin didn't order the rape  of Ellia Martell.

I've since changed my views; Tywinin's place considering he'd already given Robert the city, and I do believe now Tywin did order the mountain to rape and murder Ellia. This idea of him not thinking about Aery's biggest insult towards him(Ellia being give Rheagar),  due to him being busy and worried about Jamie is ludicrous.

The humiliation must have galled at him every day.

Everyone’s compensating for something.

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Again He already delivered Kl and hes the richest man in westeroes. I dont think Robert much cared on how he was percieved for the murder considering he proudly tell anyone his genocidal views towards the targaryians. I mean he basically showed his approval of the act by never demanding justice at the very least ser gregore's head.

I actually think that Robert cared a great deal. Any person can go into a rage about wanting to hurt someone if they are really pissed, but it takes a special kind of person to take these words into action. Thus Robert expressing his hate for the Targaryens is very different from him ordering the murder of Targaryen kids. The later people won't put much thought in, but they will in the later.

Also if he's going to placate Dorne, he's going to have to give them all of it. He's going to need to give them Tywin's head, Gregor's head and Lorch's head. Trying to just get Gregor won't mean anything to Dorne and it will seriously alienate the Lannisters and most likely open up an entire new war to fight. A war that Robert will win, yes, but most people realize that endless wars are not something they long for. Besides like I said, Tywin did Robert a favor and Robert was ever generous.

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Yes the mutain never needs a excuse to rape or murderer too. But Tywin has used rape  as weapon of humilation  in the past. He made his own son participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's wife to teach the boy a lesson in respect. He never forgets a slight. And Ellia was the biggest slight he was ever dealt and forced to bear, he was made a mockery.

So it is that Tywin has done so, but then we get into the problem of why he would deny it? The last time he didn't try to deny anything and now he's denying it like nothing else, even while he confess to ordering the killing of Rhaegar's children, he denies anything about Elia. I find it hard to see what benefit Tywin would get from agreeing he had children murdered but not had their mother raped and killed.

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8 hours ago, Jaak said:

Bad PR, yes. And a liability.

Robert had no other good excuse to keep hold of his hostage. Sending Jaime to Wall would have meant offending Tywin and losing a hostage. Returning Jaime to Casterly Rock would have pleased Tywin but also meant losing the hostage.

Sorry for double posting. :(

Yeah, but I'm not sure what Robert needs Jamie as a hostage for. He's already married to Cersei who lives with Robert so he's already got a useless hostage as he never makes any move to use either of his two "hostages".

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6 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Sorry for double posting. :(

Yeah, but I'm not sure what Robert needs Jamie as a hostage for. He's already married to Cersei who lives with Robert so he's already got a useless hostage as he never makes any move to use either of his two "hostages".

Not when he was refusing Eddard´s advice to send Jaime to Wall!

Eddard left in a huff to save Lyanna... Robert had no plan whatsoever to marry Cersei because he was of course going to get Lyanna back. So Robert did then need Jaime for a hostage. And wound up stuck with unnecessary and shameful hostage.

Also: if Jaime did not get a choice to stay as Kingsguard or go home (because Robert claimed Kingsguard still existed and the vows bound for life), then Robert also could not release Barristan. Nor Gerold, Arthur or Oswell.

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3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I actually think that Robert cared a great deal. Any person can go into a rage about wanting to hurt someone if they are really pissed, but it takes a special kind of person to take these words into action. Thus Robert expressing his hate for the Targaryens is very different from him ordering the murder of Targaryen kids. The later people won't put much thought in, but they will in the later.

Over 14 years after the war he's still seething how he regrets not having  killed every Targaryian. When he finds out Dany is pregnant he sends an Assasain after only changing his mind on his dead bed. If a person talks constantly about killing off x group, odds are he won't actually shudder at the chance. Hell Robert freely praises Tywin for the murder. And Tywin doesn't know Robert's plan. Remember, Tywin only joined him right at the end with alerting no one he'd switched sides. Robert could have wanted to hostage them,maybe Robert planned to have his son  marry Rhalia when she and he is old enough to appease the Targaryian loyalists and make his line more legitimate for all Tywin knew.

Also if he's going to placate Dorne, he's going to have to give them all of it. He's going to need to give them Tywin's head, Gregor's head and Lorch's head. Trying to just get Gregor won't mean anything to Dorne and it will seriously alienate the Lannisters and most likely open up an entire new war to fight.

The Moutain could be blamed for overreacting. He's not invaluable and his brutal reputation hasn't be built up yet, he's just one really big guy.. There's no reason Robert to think Tywin wouldn't have a problem casting him and everyone who did follow his orders to the wolves.

A war that Robert will win, yes, but most people realize that endless wars are not something they long for. Besides like I said, Tywin did Robert a favor and Robert was ever generous.

So it is that Tywin has done so, but then we get into the problem of why he would deny it?

The last time he didn't try to deny anything and now he's denying it like nothing else, even while he confess to ordering the killing of Rhaegar's children, he denies anything about Elia. I find it hard to see what benefit Tywin would get from agreeing he had children murdered but not had their mother raped and killed.

Because he wants to be seen as a necessity and too rational for emotions such as anger and jealousy to guide his acts, that every thing is for a higher purpose, that every crime is something he was forced to do. Stripping his father's mistress wasn't an act he did with a clinical detachment. He definitely derived a pleasure seeing the "whore" put in her place. Like he enjoyed paying back Aerys for all the slights he's been forced to bear. He helped take out the thing Tywin himself values above all else; legacy. Aerys legacy would end in humiliating way and doubtless Tywin planned to mock Aerys with this before he was executed.

Think of who exactly he is denying ordering the rape to. Tyrion who he ordered to participate in a gangrape of Tyrion's wife. He could try to frame the murders of Rheagar's children as being a necessary but not the rape. 

 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Over 14 years after the war he's still seething how he regrets not having  killed every Targaryian. When he finds out Dany is pregnant he sends an Assasain after only changing his mind on his dead bed. If a person talks constantly about killing off x group, odds are he won't actually shudder at the chance. Hell Robert freely praises Tywin for the murder. And Tywin doesn't know Robert's plan. Remember, Tywin only joined him right at the end with alerting no one he'd switched sides. Robert could have wanted to hostage them,maybe Robert planned to have his son  marry Rhalia when she and he is old enough to appease the Targaryian loyalists and make his line more legitimate for all Tywin knew.

And Eddard notes that Robert was a passionate man who could go into rages but would calm down and forget about it. Kind if like he did with most things.

Tywin clearly states to Tyrion that Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was well known by the time of the Sack, so there's no chance that he'll try to unite his House with the Targaryens anymore than Bloodraven would seek to unite the Targaryens and Blackfyres. The one that Tywin would potentially need to watch himself for would have been Jon Arryn who could potentially harbor such designs but apparently did not.

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The Moutain could be blamed for overreacting. He's not invaluable and his brutal reputation hasn't be built up yet, he's just one really big guy.. There's no reason Robert to think Tywin wouldn't have a problem casting him and everyone who did follow his orders to the wolves.

If you start throwing people under the bus for doing what you told them to do, you will soon run out of people who are not second-guessing your instructions on the basis if they'll get thrown under the bus by you at a later date. And protecting your bannermen is a responsibility for a feudal lord and Tywin is, for all his faults, not an irresponsible man.

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Because he wants to be seen as a necessity and too rational for emotions such as anger and jealousy to guide his acts, that every thing is for a higher purpose, that every crime is something he was forced to do. Stripping his father's mistress wasn't an act he did with a clinical detachment. He definitely derived a pleasure seeing the "whore" put in her place. Like he enjoyed paying back Aerys for all the slights he's been forced to bear. He helped take out the thing Tywin himself values above all else; legacy. Aerys legacy would end in humiliating way and doubtless Tywin planned to mock Aerys with this before he was executed.

Think of who exactly he is denying ordering the rape to. Tyrion who he ordered to participate in a gangrape of Tyrion's wife. He could try to frame the murders of Rheagar's children as being a necessary but not the rape. 

 

That's a whole load of conjecture to which I do not agree with. Its obvious we have different ideas about who Tywin is.

As for Tyrion, why would Tywin try to make things softer for his youngest son? Tywin has no fear of Tyrion and everything Tyrion has is something that ultimately comes from Tywin, and which Tywin can take away at any time he choses. I remain unconvinced that Tywin would care enough about Tyrion's opinion or feelings to go this extra feet for his sake.

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7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

And Eddard notes that Robert was a passionate man who could go into rages but would calm down and forget about it. Kind if like he did with most things.

He never forgot it. Hench his ordering of Dany's death.

Tywin clearly states to Tyrion that Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was well known by the time of the Sack, so there's no chance that he'll try to unite his House with the Targaryens anymore than Bloodraven would seek to unite the Targaryens and Blackfyres.

The one that Tywin would potentially need to watch himself for would have been Jon Arryn who could potentially harbor such designs but apparently did not.

If you start throwing people under the bus for doing what you told them to do, you will soon run out of people who are not second-guessing your instructions on the basis if they'll get thrown under the bus by you at a later date. And protecting your bannermen is a responsibility for a feudal lord and Tywin is, for all his faults, not an irresponsible man.

I said Robert would have asked for justice if he didn't in anyway approve of what he'd done not that Tywin would have given it. 

That's a whole load of conjecture to which I do not agree with. Its obvious we have different ideas about who Tywin is.

As for Tyrion, why would Tywin try to make things softer for his youngest son? Tywin has no fear of Tyrion and everything Tyrion has is something that ultimately comes from Tywin, and which Tywin can take away at any time he choses. I remain unconvinced that Tywin would care enough about Tyrion's opinion or feelings to go this extra feet for his sake. He asks Tyrion flat out if Tyrion thought he would order such a thing as what happened to Ellia-this from the man who did something just as vicious ordering Tyrion to participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's wife. He obviously does care on how he's percieved by others. Hench his trying to play off the red wedding as being better than having to kill a dozen or so men at a dinner than have thousands die on the battlefield-w-when thousands were slaughtered at the red wedding Robb stark brought his army and Tywin knows this. He's clearly trying to lessen the severity of his crime and even make it something noble.

 

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17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He never forgot it. Hench his ordering of Dany's death.

What I wanted to say is that Robert raging was not something unusual and it was usually forgotten before long by Robert himself.

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I said Robert would have asked for justice if he didn't in anyway approve of what he'd done not that Tywin would have given it.

I'm not sure that I follow. Robert obviously was happy that Tywin took care of business for Robert so that Robert's hands would not be stained directly. And justice was never a great interest of Robert, one his flaws I believe.

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He asks Tyrion flat out if Tyrion thought he would order such a thing as what happened to Ellia-this from the man who did something just as vicious ordering Tyrion to participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's wife. He obviously does care on how he's percieved by others. Hench his trying to play off the red wedding as being better than having to kill a dozen or so men at a dinner than have thousands die on the battlefield-w-when thousands were slaughtered at the red wedding Robb stark brought his army and Tywin knows this. He's clearly trying to lessen the severity of his crime and even make it something noble.

Tywin cares about his public image, yes, but I fail to see why he would still care much for Tyrion's speciftic opinion about him. If he's ready to do that horrible business with Tysha, why would he then suger coat Tyrion's opinion with Elia, when he's already admitting to ordering the deaths of Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys?

A more reasonable approach is this. Tywin feels free to discuss his thoughts around Tyrion because Tyrion is utterly dependent on Tywin and generally reviled and so wouldn't have much credibility to spread bad words about Tywin and be believed. Thus Tywin can say what he really thinks and not be overly concerned that it will be used against him.

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I believe Twyin was right to seize Elia and her children before rebels reached King's Landing. He had to show that Lannisters had forsaken house Targaryen. But he could achieve his goal without killing them. Aegon sent to the Wall, Rhaenys to the Faith and Elia to Silent Sisters would be a less brutal but still convenient way to get rid of them.

His goal was also to give a lesson to Martells for managing to wed Rhaegar to Elia instead of Cersei. I believe he was true when he said to Tyrion that he didn't give exact orders about Elia and her children but he knew Gregor's brutality and expected that something horrible would happen. This was also a cruel way for payback to Aerys for all he suffered.

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5 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

What I wanted to say is that Robert raging was not something unusual and it was usually forgotten before long by Robert himself. Robert did not forget he and is still as angry about the Targaryians as ever

I'm not sure that I follow. Robert obviously was happy that Tywin took care of business for Robert so that Robert's hands would not be stained directly. And justice was never a great interest of Robert, one his flaws I believe.

you said you thought Robert cared-clearly he didn't.

Tywin cares about his public image, yes, but I fail to see why he would still care much for Tyrion's speciftic opinion about him. If he's ready to do that horrible business with Tysha, why would he then suger coat Tyrion's opinion with Elia, when he's already admitting to ordering the deaths of Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys?

Because he have to give a reason that doesn't make him look petty. Saying he ordered this out to spite and humiliate Aerys would make him seem as lowly as the Walder Freys of the world. He's not a big enough man to even be honest with his son on how not everything he does is for some grand purpose

A more reasonable approach is this In your opinion. Tywin feels free to discuss his thoughts around Tyrion because Tyrion is utterly dependent on Tywin and generally reviled and so wouldn't have much credibility to spread bad words about Tywin and be believed. Thus Tywin can say what he really thinks and not be overly concerned that it will be used against him.

What he is saying is bullshit. Again he tried to frame the amount of people who died at the red wedding as being a few dozen and say it was preferable to thousands being lost on the battle-field-when thousands did die. He wants the thing that would be considered his greatest crime to be some sort of noble act. Again he's asking Tyrion if he thought he could order such as what happened to Ellia when he had ordered the gangrape of Tysha. Clearly he is capable but nevertheless he's acting offended Tyrion could even consider such a prospect. And one more thing to note even Tywin claim of Robert's level of dislike of the Targaryians isn't really rested on that solid ground-there have been tales expresses by anyone actually with him during the war of him saying he'd literally kill every Targaryian including the babes(likely because he was too busy fucking girls and getting drunk)hell Ned (he was the closest to Robert) actually seemed surprised Robert wouldn't demand justice for Tywin's crime

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On 2017-12-23 at 8:19 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

I don't know how much new info we'll get from this. Maybe we should agree to disagree?

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9 hours ago, Maximus Greyjoy said:

Wouldn't Robert allowing Jaime to quit have made things go sour with Cersi that much sooner? She wanted him there.

Yes, but with Jaime away at Casterly Rock, would she have done anything but sulk and bear Robert´s children? No Jaime to spy on Robert on Greenstone and confirm that he was cheating on her...

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On 12/30/2017 at 3:23 AM, Jaak said:

Yes, but with Jaime away at Casterly Rock, would she have done anything but sulk and bear Robert´s children? No Jaime to spy on Robert on Greenstone and confirm that he was cheating on her...

I don't think she would bear him any children.She did tell Ned she had any of Robert's kids aborted.

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