Did Tywin have to kill Rheagar's children

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Maximus Greyjoy said:

I don't think she would bear him any children.She did tell Ned she had any of Robert's kids aborted.

She will breed (as Tywin says) or else she will be put aside and maybe even cast off by her family

[Jaak]

16 hours ago, Maximus Greyjoy said:

I don't think she would bear him any children.She did tell Ned she had any of Robert's kids aborted.

...with assistance of Jaime.

 

[Maximus Greyjoy]

On 1/1/2018 at 2:43 PM, Jaak said:

...with assistance of Jaime.

 

Indeed.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 12/21/2017 at 3:12 AM, oldbus said:

My personal feeling is that Tywin did know that they would be murdered.  I don't think he explicitly ordered the Mountain to do it, but by sending the Mountain in, Tywin knew what he was getting.  Equally, I don't think he explicitly ordered the rape - I just don't think Tywin would have cared one way or the other.

Yes. The dead children set up the return of (f)Aegon in book 5. Without the death of the kids, his return would be meaningless and expected  

[Jaak]

13 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes. The dead children set up the return of (f)Aegon in book 5. Without the death of the kids, his return would be meaningless and expected  

What would have happened if Tywin had ordered just Aegon (and Elia) killed, but Rhaenys spared?

Also, would it have been beneficial for Tywin to have Aegon and Elia killed in a deniable manner? Like defenestration?

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, Jaak said:

What would have happened if Tywin had ordered just Aegon (and Elia) killed, but Rhaenys spared?

Also, would it have been beneficial for Tywin to have Aegon and Elia killed in a deniable manner? Like defenestration?

yes, but then we would have a different story

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/6/2018 at 4:51 AM, Jaak said:

What would have happened if Tywin had ordered just Aegon (and Elia) killed, but Rhaenys spared?

Also, would it have been beneficial for Tywin to have Aegon and Elia killed in a deniable manner? Like defenestration?

Tywin thinks so. Remember what he said to Amory Lorch, about using a pillow to smother Rhaenys instead of stabbing her 50 times?

[Jaak]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin thinks so. Remember what he said to Amory Lorch, about using a pillow to smother Rhaenys instead of stabbing her 50 times?

Yes, but Rhaenys and Aegon/Elia dying in different places simultaneously is still suspicious.

Suppose that Aegon and Elia fall out of a window and both die.

Two alternative explanations:

1. Elia took Aegon and committed suicide to avoid capture... like Helaena and Jaehaera
2. Elia attempted to avoid capture by climbing out of the window... but could not.

Elia could easily have taken Aegon and fallen to their death. So both dead is not suspicious, and leaves no living witnesses as to whether it was murder, suicide or accident.

Robert is conveniently rid of the male heir of Rhaegaer, and also clear of blame. Since the blame for Aegon´s death is conveniently diffused - Gregor can and will blame Elia for active suicide or being so stupid as to try to climb out, Elia cannot speak to confirm suspicions of Gregor - it´s hard to blame Robert (or Tywin) even for unwillingness to punish Gregor.

[Kandrax]

I was wondering, had Elia been barren, would Tywin sent Gregor to kill her?

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 5:01 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I recently got into a discussion with a gentleman on YT on whether or not Robert was right to try to do away with with pregnant  Dany( I was on the side of yes), and the gentleman asked me if I I would support Tywin's murder of Rheagar's children. In terms of practicality towards securing the place of house Lanister. I also argued, Tywin didn't order the rape  of Ellia Martell.

I've since changed my views; Tywinin's place considering he'd already given Robert the city, and I do believe now Tywin did order the mountain to rape and murder Ellia. This idea of him not thinking about Aery's biggest insult towards him(Ellia being give Rheagar),  due to him being busy and worried about Jamie is ludicrous.

The humiliation must have galled at him every day.

I don't see why Tywin would all but admit to the murder of children but then deny the rape/murder of their mother. What is he trying to protect at this point?

Did he "have" to do it? Only if he wanted to fulfill his political objectives: undeniable commitment to the new dynasty and removing the possibility that these children would continue the Targaryen line to spur who knows how many counter-rebellions in the future. Remember, Tywin was instrumental in defeating the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders who subjected Westeros to nearly 100 years of blood and warfare, and it would have continued if the Blackfyre line had spawned another generation. And it doesn't matter if the children themselves vow never to cause trouble; if things go south for the new dynasty others will take up arms to put a Targ on the throne, willingly or no.

So just like you only "have" to breathe if you want to keep living, Tywin "had" to eliminate all the Targaryens that he could in order to secure peace for the new dynasty and ensure his place in it.

As for Jaime, everything that Tywin did that day was in order to protect Jaime. Jaime was the MK's hostage, so even though Tywin is allowed into the city, he cannot get his men anywhere near the Red Keep where Aerys already has thousands of loyalist defenders. At the same time, Tywin cannot wait until the northern army arrives because at that point he will either have to let them in, which would get Jaime killed, or fight them, which would put Tywin on the losing side of the war. So what to do? Sack the city, of course. By creating chaos in the streets, he now has a plausible reason to dispatch his soldiers toward the Red Keep, all the while sending false reports to the MK to keep him guessing; ie., rioters are burning the city, Lannister soldiers are suppressing it, the norttmen are here, sabateurs are afoot, etc. Once the fires are good and blazing, Tywin can then launch an attack against the Red Keep and get men over the walls in time to give Jaime a fighting chance should Aerys come to the conclusion that he's been betrayed -- and the fact that Aerys does not allow anyone to be armed in his presence except the Kingsguard, and Jaime is the only KG in the keep, make this possible.

Keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard? My impression was that was part of the negotiations for Cersie's hand, brokered by Jon Arryn. With Jaime in the KG, there is a glimmer of hope that one day he would be free to become Lord of the Rock. In the Nights Watch, forget it.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't see why Tywin would all but admit to the murder of children but then deny the rape/murder of their mother. What is he trying to protect at this point?

 

The idea he's too big to allow any decision of his to be done so out of anything but for the betterment and security  of the house.

Again he's asking his who'd he forced in participating in a gangrape of his son's own wife. Yet he acted offended Tyrion would think Tywin would order the rape.

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Did he "have" to do it? Only if he wanted to fulfill his political objectives: undeniable commitment to the new dynasty and removing the possibility that these children would continue the Targaryen line to spur who knows how many counter-rebellions in the future. Remember, Tywin was instrumental in defeati

Taking the city(while coming as an ally), and laying the children and Ellia into the Usurphers hands alone would have see any chance of renewed kinship between the lion and the dragon to be very unlikely

The boy is but a babe the girl a toddler. 

They're young enough to forget Rheagar as well as enacting some vegence.

There are a litany of options that could easily prove quite better than murdering them.

Such as ruling through the boy(as has been done before when people disposed of a king who'd a son), and marry him to a loyal house; they can send him to the watch to take vows at the watch when he becomes of age to politically neutralize him and have Robert's son marry Visenya for when she comes of age.

Each would quell the old-monarchy loyalists.

A man like Tywin would recognize this. 

He wanted to hurt Aerys.

 

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So just like you only "have" to breathe if you want to keep living, Tywin "had" to eliminate all the Targaryens that he could in order to secure peace for the new dynasty an

But he didn't.

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As for Jaime, everything that Tywin did that day was in order to protect Jaime. Jaime was the MK's hostage, so even though Tywin is allowed into the city, he cannot get his men anywhere near the Red Keep where Aerys already has thousands of loyalist defenders. At the same time, Tywin cannot wait until the northern army arrives because at that point he will either have to let them in, which would get Jaime killed, or fight them, which would put Tywin on the losing side of the war. So what to do? Sack the city, of course. By creating chaos in the streets, he now has a plausible reason to dispatch his soldiers toward the Red Keep, all the while sending false reports to the MK to keep him guessing; ie., rioters are burning the city, Lannister soldiers are suppressing it, the norttmen are here, sabateurs are afoot, etc.

Aerys knew he was there...blood and mayhem being  caused immediately after letting the lions would lead even a mad man like Aerys to go "oh it's probably Tywin"  which he did.

Hell he could probably see the Laninster soldiers burning and raping by peering out a window from the RK. 

And Tywin's motives for his treachery was at the very least largely motivated from recognizing the rebels had basically won and wanted to get in with them.

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Once the fires are good and blazing, Tywin can then launch an attack against the Red Keep and get men over the walls in time to give Jaime a fighting chance should Aerys come to the conclusion that he's been betrayed -- and the fact that Aerys does not allow anyone to be armed in his presence except the Kingsguard, and Jaime is the only KG in the keep, make this possible.

Ok Jaamie is the only one armed around Aerys...how exactly is Jamie under that much threat given all the fighting men wouldn't be anywhere close to him?

 

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard? My impression was that was part of the negotiations for Cersie's hand, brokered by Jon Arryn. With Jaime in the KG, there is a glimmer of hope that one day he would be free to become Lord of the Rock. In the Nights Watch, forget it.

Possiblely.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The idea he's too big to allow any decision of his to be done so out of anything but for the betterment and security  of the house.

Again he's asking his who'd he forced in participating in a gangrape of his son's own wife. Yet he acted offended Tyrion would think Tywin would order the rape.

But he's talking to only Tyrion when he admits to the murder of the children. If Tyrion already knows first-hand that Tywin is capable of ordering someone to be raped, then what does Tywin gain by denying prior knowledge of Elia? What does he gain by lying to Tyrion, and in what way would it diminish Tyrion's opinion of Tywin if Tywin told the truth. Since when did Tywin give a rat's furry ass what Tyrion thought?

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Taking the city(while coming as an ally), and laying the children and Ellia into the Usurphers hands alone would have see any chance of renewed kinship between the lion and the dragon to be very unlikely

The boy is but a babe the girl a toddler. 

They're young enough to forget Rheagar as well as enacting some vegence.

There are a litany of options that could easily prove quite better than murdering them.

Such as ruling through the boy(as has been done before when people disposed of a king who'd a son), and marry him to a loyal house; they can send him to the watch to take vows at the watch when he becomes of age to politically neutralize him and have Robert's son marry Visenya for when she comes of age.

Each would quell the old-monarchy loyalists.

A man like Tywin would recognize this. 

He wanted to hurt Aerys.

After the Trident, Robert declared his intention to become king, so Tywin is in no position to insist that Robert rule through baby Aegon instead.

None of the other options are as certain as death when your intent is to prevent future rebellions. Even the Nights Watch is no guarantee: Aegor Rivers was sent to the Wall but he escaped before he got there and rejoined the Golden Company in Essos. Three more Blackfyre rebellions ensued. Marrying Aegon to a "loyal" house simply means that his line will continue, with many people considering it the rightful rulers instead of these Baratheon usurpers, which means more rebellion is inevitable.

A lot of people see Tywin as a petty, vengeful man, but I don't. He's proud, no doubt, and guards the honor of his house dearly, but all of his moves are made with the big picture in mind. The Targaryen children were a threat to the future dynasty, so they had to go. Elia was not, so her fate was irrelevant to him.

Did it give him some satisfaction to finally one-up his old frenemy? Maybe, but he would not have done what he did if it did not ensure the security of the new dynasty.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But he didn't.

He did. No other solution could guarantee peace in the new realm, and this is what he needs most of all at this moment in order to enhance the honor and prestige of House Lannister. That is his driving motivation for everything he does.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Aerys knew he was there...blood and mayhem being  caused immediately after letting the lions would lead even a mad man like Aerys to go "oh it's probably Tywin"  which he did.

Hell he could probably see the Laninster soldiers burning and raping by peering out a window from the RK. 

And Tywin's motives for his treachery was at the very least largely motivated from recognizing the rebels had basically won and wanted to get in with them.

Ok Jaamie is the only one armed around Aerys...how exactly is Jamie under that much threat given all the fighting men wouldn't be anywhere close to him?

There is no media or television or free press to give Aerys a bird's eye view of what is happening in the city. All he knows comes from the reports that are coming in, and no doubt some of those will be accurate reports that Lannister men are torching the city. But at the same time Tywin, who is tasked with defending the city, is sending his own reports talking about his efforts to quell the rioting, punish the wrongdoers, defend the gates, etc. So at best, Aerys is getting conflicting reports as to what is happening, so he doesn't know what to think. Also, Tywin is not stupid enough to send Lannister soldiers wearing Lannister uniforms to start a riot. He'll use common, un-uniformed foot soldiers so it looks like normal townspeople are panicking in the streets, with uniformed soldiers moving to protect key sites, such as the Red Keep.

Aerys only came to realize that Tywin had betrayed him once he saw actual Lannister soldiers storming the gates of the Red Keep and coming over the walls. By then it was too late. If Tywin had tried to do that without starting the sack first, then by the time his men made it even halfway to the Red Keep, Aerys would have Jaime in irons (there are several thousand armed men in the Red Keep at Aerys' disposal) and his head would come rolling off his shoulders if a single Lann soldier takes one more step. The fact that Aerys only allows KG to be armed in his presence buys a little time, but it is not infinite. Since the loyalist defenders are not yet defending the gates of the Keep, Aerys would have no trouble ordering Rossart to gather two dozen men to take Jaime -- all without getting anywhere near Aerys.

The sack was the only way to get Tywin's men close enough to the Red Keep so that when the betrayal could no longer be denied he had a chance to get enough men to Jaime's side to give him a fighting chance. Even the first two on the scene, Crakehall and Westerling, would have been enough to get Jaime to safety long enough for the loyalists in the keep to be defeated.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But he's talking to only Tyrion when he admits to the murder of the children.

He could put forth an argument for that was necessary; not te rape and murder of Ellia.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion already knows first-hand that Tywin is capable of ordering someone to be raped, then what does Tywin gain by denying prior knowledge of Elia? What does he gain by lying to Tyrion, and in what way would it diminish Tyrion's opinion of Tywin if Tywin told the truth. Since when did Tywin give a rat's furry ass what Tyrion thought?

Why give this long winded explanation for what happened  if Tywin didn't give a rat's furry ass what Tyrion thought of him? If he didn't he'd simply say a father doesn't have to justify himself to his or some such.  Why act offended at Tyrion for daring to think Tywin Laninster would order such a thing as rape-when he's clear he's capable of much worse?

If Tywin says he ordered the rape and murder of Ellia as payback against Aerys for refusing to join their houses in marriage he'd look undeniably petty.

Tywin could be feared and/or hated but he will not be seen as petty. 

Another thing; why pretend as though the RW only had a few people at dinner murdered if he didn't care?

When literaly it was a massacre of thousands.

He wants others to recognize his apparently immoral or unethical actions as being always done out of necessity that he is a necessity.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

After the Trident, Robert declared his intention to become king, so Tywin is in no position to insist that Robert rule through baby Aegon instead.

None of the other options are as certain as death when your intent is to prevent future rebellions. Even the Nights Watch is no guarantee: Aegor Rivers was sent to the Wall but he escaped before he got there and rejoined the Golden Company in Essos. Three more Blackfyre rebellions ensued. Marrying Aegon to a "loyal" house simply means that his line will continue, with many people considering it the rightful rulers instead of these Baratheon usurpers, which means more rebellion is inevitable.

First, Robert was gravely wounded at the trident. When exactly did he make his proclamation?

Second, Robert would at the latest be dealing with a 15 year old boy not a hardened battle-commandeder like Riverd. 

Him being personally transported to take his vows won't have the near probability of escape. 

Third, having Visenya taken as a wife for Robert's son would lessen the chance of rebellion breaking out considerably more than just flat out murderering the girl.

It gives his future grandson far more legitimacy and thus the Baratheon line would be far more secure.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 

A lot of people see Tywin as a petty, vengeful man, but I don't. He's proud, no doubt, and guards the honor of his house dearly, but all of his moves are made with the big picture in mind. The Targaryen children were a threat to the future dynasty, so they had to go. Elia was not, so her fate was irrelevant to him.

He is a petty vengeancful man.

Well he can be.

Having  the children could quell rebellion from Targaryen loyalists and Dorne.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He did. No other solution could guarantee peace in the new realm, and this is what he needs most of all at this moment in order to enhance the honor and prestige of House Lannister. That is his driving motivation for everything he do

He didn't. Hell the girl alone for the prospect of being able to get a son on her could very warrant at the very least sparring her.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no media or television or free press to give Aerys a bird's eye view of what is happening in the city. All he knows comes from the reports that are coming in, and no doubt some of those will be accurate reports that Lannister men are torching the city. But at the same time Tywin, who is tasked with defending the city, is sending his own reports talking about his efforts to quell the rioting, punish the wrongdoers, defend the gates, etc.

He doesn't need a television or the Internet to be able to discern what is right in front of him. Literally he can look out the window and see that yes, soldiers are burning and raping KL, not the peasants. Hell Tywin knows Aerys doesn't very much trust him in the first place the idea Tywin would believe Aerys would become confused if  Tywin's messenger(which Aerys doubtfully would recieve all toghether) came and said a riot out of no where happened minutes after letting in the Lanister's is far fetched given Aerys' known distrust Tywin in general. The moment bloodshed breaks out(and let's say Aerys isn't watching), the first person who comes and says Tywin is causing mayhem Aerys is going to believe because it goes in line with every fear Aerys has of Tywin.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Why give this long winded explanation for what happened  if Tywin didn't give a rat's furry ass what Tyrion thought of him? If he didn't he'd simply say a father doesn't have to justify himself to his or some such.  

Because Tyrion is Master of Coin now, a member of the small council and a top advisor to both the king and the hand. He has to know what happened so, at the very least, he doesn't foul things up with the Red Viper by saying something stupid. It's got nothing to do with Tywin justifying himself to anyone. It's so that all the Lannisters on the small council are on the same page when it comes to the highly delicate matter of dealing with the Martells.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Another thing; why pretend as though the RW only had a few people at dinner murdered if he didn't care?

When literaly it was a massacre of thousands.

He wants others to recognize his apparently immoral or unethical actions as being always done out of necessity that he is a necessity.

I don't think he's trying to claim that only a dozen men were killed at the RW. He's using it as an example that men die in war, so even if he had to kill thousands at a wedding, it would have been double in battle. Dead is dead, so why criticize the solution that resulted in fewer deaths. It's twisted logic, to be sure, kind of the like the atomic bomb debate, but I don't think you can argue that Tywin is trying to whitewash what happened.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

First, Robert was gravely wounded at the trident. When exactly did he make his proclamation?

Second, Robert would at the latest be dealing with a 15 year old boy not a hardened battle-commandeder like Riverd. 

Him being personally transported to take his vows won't have the near probability of escape. 

Quote

 

SSM, Nov. 19, 2005

When did Robert proclaim his intention to take the throne? At the outset of the war, or was it a relatively late development?

Robert proclaimed his intention to take the throne ... around the time of the Trident. Would not elaborate any further. Mentioned Robert's claim being stronger than Eddard Stark's and Jon Arryn's, the leaders of the two other great houses that spearheaded the revolution, due to blood ties to the Targaryen's.

 

And he would have to keep Aegon under virtual lock and key for 15 years to prevent loyalists from spiriting him away. Bittersteel as being personally transported as well. He escaped.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Third, having Visenya taken as a wife for Robert's son would lessen the chance of rebellion breaking out considerably more than just flat out murderering the girl.

It gives his future grandson far more legitimacy and thus the Baratheon line would be far more secure.

Still, you're talking about a 15-year time period when all of this is uncertain. That's far too much time to let instability in the realm fester. Look what the Tyrells were able to accomplish in just a few months of joining team Lannister.

Also, you are completely overlooking the fact that Aerys was not particularly fond of Elia nor the children, who "smelled Dornish." So even if Aerys was still alive to see their murdered bodies, if probably wouldn't upset him all that much. His affection was for Viserys, which is why he was sent off to the safety of Dragonstone while Elia and the children were kept in KL with a hostile army bearing down on them. Tywin would be aware of all this, so even if he is trying to hurt Aerys somehow, this is a pretty pathetic way of doing it.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He doesn't need a television or the Internet to be able to discern what is right in front of him. Literally he can look out the window and see that yes, soldiers are burning and raping KL, not the peasants. Hell Tywin knows Aerys doesn't very much trust him in the first place the idea Tywin would believe Aerys would become confused if  Tywin's messenger(which Aerys doubtfully would recieve all toghether) came and said a riot out of no where happened minutes after letting in the Lanister's is far fetched given Aerys' known distrust Tywin in general. The moment bloodshed breaks out(and let's say Aerys isn't watching), the first person who comes and says Tywin is causing mayhem Aerys is going to believe because it goes in line with every fear Aerys has of Tywin.

There is nothing right in front of him. The Red Keep is way up on a hill, miles away from where the sack would begin. If he looks out a window all he sees is smoke coming up from the city. He doesn't have binocular/xray vision to look through buildings and discern the identity of rioters in the street. And sorry, but no, the people setting fires and pillaging the city are not going to be wearing Lannister uniforms, they will be ordinary foot soldiers indistinguishable from ordinary citizens. By the time Ned arrives, of course, the MK is dead and the sack is in full swing, so, sure, uniformed soldiers would be taking part at this point, but not at the outset.

Riots are very common when a hostile army is marching on a city. The same thing happened during the Blackwater. People panic, looters run wild. I don't know where you're getting the idea that the sack began minutes after the gates were opened. That's pretty much impossible. It would take several hours just to march Tywin's army through the gates and get them in position.

The only way anyone would know that Tywin ordered the sack is if they heard him do it. Any eye-witness on the street would merely see rioters and looters because, again, Tywin would not be so colossally stupid as to send his uniformed men to start raping and pillaging. He will use his non-uniformed foot soldiers and maneuver his uniformed troops closer and closer to the RK on the pretense of quelling the disturbance. There is simply no other way he can avoid having to fight the northern army while at the same time having even a snowflake's chance in hell of getting Jaime out of the Red Keep alive.

Jaime is Tywin's only hope of maintaining his line as Lords of the Rock. This is the single-most important thing in Tywin's life. If he carries any hostility toward Aerys, it is for the induction of Jaime into the King's Guard, not refusing Cersei's hand for Rhaegar. Just look at the history: Aerys refused Cersie's hand in 276, at the tourney celebrating the birth of Prince Viserys, but Tywin did not resign as Hand until 281, right after Jaime was named to the KG. Without Jaime, the main branch of House Lannister loses the rock or, even worse, it passes to the despicable Tyrion. Tywin's cherished legacy would end with his death.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Because Tyrion is Master of Coin now, a member of the small council and a top advisor to both the king and the hand. He has to know what happened so, at the very least, he doesn't foul things up with the Red Viper by saying something stupid. It's got nothing to do with Tywin justifying himself to anyone. It's so that all the Lannisters on the small council are on the same page when it comes to the highly delicate matter of dealing with the Martells

Tyrion's sole responsibility in terms of dealing with Oberyn  was the one to  greet  the Dornish prince as he arrived. Tywin doesn't think Tyrion is so stupid as to bring up that yes the lanisters are responsible for the rape and murder of his beloved sister or intentionally bring it up in the first place.

All Tywin has to tell Tyrion is that he will handle this situation.

And again why act offended at Tyrion thinking he(the man who ordered to participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's own wife), would order what had happened to Ellia.

He's making it seem as though just a dozen did die.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Quote

 

And he would have to keep Aegon under virtual lock and key for 15 years to prevent loyalists from spiriting him away. Bittersteel as being personally transported as well. He escaped.

Yes. Which he could easily do. The fact Robert would have little Aegon as a hostage would dissuade any Targayen loyalists from attempting anything while Robert has him firmly in his claws. Surely Robert could have had an easier time transporting him to the wall. Hell you don't even ha

 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Also, you are completely overlooking the fact that Aerys was not particularly fond of Elia nor the children, who "smelled Dornish." So even if Aerys was still alive to see their murdered bodies, if probably wouldn't upset him all that much. His affection was for Viserys, which is why he was sent off to the safety of Dragonstone while Elia and the children were kept in KL with a hostile army bearing down on them. Tywin would be aware of all this, so even if he is trying to hurt Aerys somehow, this is a pretty pathetic way of doing it.

Is Tywin particularly fond of Tyrion?

No? Would he be livid if someone without his consent killed him? Yes. Love has nothing to do with it. Aegon and Visenya were apart of Aerys legacy. Tywin wanted to destroy the one thing he himself values above all else. Ellia was Aerys' biggest insult Aerys had dealt to Tywin and Tywin is petty enough to have her brutalized as he's petty enough to have had Tysha brutalized for Tyrion having shame  

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

On January 24, 2018 at 2:39 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

There is nothing right in front of him. The Red Keep is way up on a hill, miles away from where the sack would begin. If he looks out a window all he sees is smoke coming up from the city. He doesn't have binocular/xray vision to look through buildings and discern the identity of rioters in the street. And sorry, but no, the people setting fires and pillaging the city are not going to be wearing Lannister uniforms, they will be ordinary foot soldiers indistinguishable from ordinary citizens. By the time Ned arrives, of course, the MK is dead and the sack is in full swing, so, sure, uniformed soldiers would be taking part at this point, but not at the outset.

Assuming that he couldn't directly see them from a window at the RK* Yeah a loyalist  would definitely go on to report that yes it's Tywin's men doing it. Because they would saw them start after they entered the city.

 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Jaime is Tywin's only hope of maintaining his line as Lords of the Rock. This is the single-most important thing in Tywin's life. If he carries any hostility toward Aerys, it is for the induction of Jaime into the King's Guard, not refusing Cersei's hand for Rhaegar. Just look at the history: Aerys refused Cersie's hand in 276, at the tourney celebrating the birth of Prince Viserys, but Tywin did not resign as Hand until 281, right after Jaime was named to the KG. Without Jaime, the main branch of House Lannister loses the rock or, even worse, it passes to the despicable Tyrion. Tywin's cherished legacy would end with his death.

Tywin is young enough to remarry should Tyrion grow up to be much of a  dissapointment.  

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion's sole responsibility in terms of dealing with Oberyn  was the one to  greet  the Dornish prince as he arrived. Tywin doesn't think Tyrion is so stupid as to bring up that yes the lanisters are responsible for the rape and murder of his beloved sister or intentionally bring it up in the first place.

All Tywin has to tell Tyrion is that he will handle this situation.

No, that is not Tyrion's sole responsibility. Where did you get that from? Both Tyrion and Oberyn will be sitting on the small council, along with Tywin. So Tyrion will be having innumerable discussions and interactions with Oberyn going forward, particularly over this business about getting "justice" for Elia. Honestly, do you think Tyrion, as Master of Coin, is just supposed to sit there dumbstruck at all council meetings and at court and anytime else that Oberyn is present? He is going to be dealing with Oberyn on a daily basis and one ill-informed comment out of Tyrion's mouth could blow the whole situation sky high. Tyrion has to know what happened, and both he and Tywin have to be on the same page.

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And again why act offended at Tyrion thinking he(the man who ordered to participate in the gangrape of Tyrion's own wife), would order what had happened to Ellia.

He's not acting offended, not by a long shot. All he says is "even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope." The meaning is clear: while the rape of your "wife" was necessary to teach you your hard lesson, the rape of Elia was "sheer folly" because "by herself she was nothing."

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. Which he could easily do. The fact Robert would have little Aegon as a hostage would dissuade any Targayen loyalists from attempting anything while Robert has him firmly in his claws. Surely Robert could have had an easier time transporting him to the wall. Hell you don't even ha

No, this is not easily done. How do you come up with this stuff? 15 years is a helluva long time. It's basically from the end of the rebellion to the beginning of GoT. Look at how easily Davos was able to get Edric Storm out of Dragonstone. One betrayal is all it takes, and if things don't go swimmingly with the new dynasty -- if there is an economic decline or a sickness or crop failure or any of a hundred things that can go wrong -- then more and more people will start longing for the old days. As long as Aegon is alive, the threat of a counter-rebellion exists.

Just re-read Tywin's explanation of why he did what he did. It's all right there. There is no reason to lie about any of it in a private conversation with Tyrion. There is no indication at all, anywhere, that it was done out of spite or to settle old scores. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

In what way would Robert have an easier time sending him to the Wall? Does he have better ships than the Targaryens? Better soldiers? A teleporter? Sorry, but it seems like your post was cut off.

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Is Tywin particularly fond of Tyrion?

What does that have to do with Aerys' relationship with his grandchildren?

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No? Would he be livid if someone without his consent killed him? Yes. Love has nothing to do with it. Aegon and Visenya were apart of Aerys legacy. Tywin wanted to destroy the one thing he himself values above all else. Ellia was Aerys' biggest insult Aerys had dealt to Tywin and Tywin is petty enough to have her brutalized as he's petty enough to have had Tysha brutalized for Tyrion having shame  

If you have any text at all to support this, I'd love to see it. Where is there even the slightest evidence that Tywin is doing these things for petty revenge? To believe that, you would have to believe that time and time again, he takes actions simply to settle old scores with people who are or soon will be dead and the fact that each and every time these actions end up either defending House Lannister's honor or enhancing its position politically or militarily or financially is all just a happy coincidence.

 

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Assuming that he couldn't directly see them from a window at the RK* Yeah a loyalist  would definitely go on to report that yes it's Tywin's men doing it. Because they would saw them start after they entered the city.

All the more reason why the sack did not happen the moment the gates opened. Please, give Tywin just a little credit; he's not an abject idiot. Here he is, with his army outside the walls and an open gate in front of him. Is he going to take this opportunity to march has army into the city unmolested and uncontested so that they can be in position for when he does order the attack? Or does he yell "charge" right away, immediately signaling his betrayal and now facing the prospect of first having to secure the gate with the meager handful of fighters at the head of his column and then fighting his way through miles of twisting city streets -- the most difficult, uncertain type of combat there is -- giving the Mad King hours to subdue Jaime and spike his severed head on the wall?

Take a look at the map of King's Landing. Tywin would have arrived via the Goldroad, which ends at the Lion's Gate on the far side of the city from the Red Keep. So not only does he not have a nice big avenue to fight his way along like with the Gate of the Gods, but he also has to make his way over or around Visenya's Hill, preferably avoiding any damage to the Great Sept of Baelor and hopefully not drawing any wildfire from the Alchemists Guild Hall.

So sorry, but your version of events simply cannot be true because we wouldn't be reading Jaime Lannister's PoVs right now. He would be a tragic figure of history who died due to the unimaginable idiocy of his father who could have used tact and guile to get close enough to the Red Keep to affect a rescue but instead opted for a blunt assault from all the way across the city because he wanted his petty revenge against the king.

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tywin is young enough to remarry should Tyrion grow up to be much of a  dissapointment.  

Well, this is an entirely different debate. Sure, after Jaime was taken from him and considering the fact that he is adamant that Tyrion will never get the Rock, why didn't Tywin set about producing additional heirs?

My guess is that Tywin is either sterile or impotent and that if he did take a new wife and she failed to bear children, then that would start to cast suspicions on the paternity of his children. There is already a lot of speculation on this board about Tyrion and/or Jaime/Cersie not being Tywin's true children, so if people in-story started to doubt Tywin's virility that would throw the succession into doubt, probably leading to civil war in the westerlands and putting an end to Tywin's cherished legacy.

[Jaak]

On 1/23/2018 at 11:31 PM, John Suburbs said:

Did he "have" to do it? Only if he wanted to fulfill his political objectives: undeniable commitment to the new dynasty and removing the possibility that these children would continue the Targaryen line to spur who knows how many counter-rebellions in the future. Remember, Tywin was instrumental in defeating the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders who subjected Westeros to nearly 100 years of blood and warfare, and it would have continued if the Blackfyre line had spawned another generation. And it doesn't matter if the children themselves vow never to cause trouble; if things go south for the new dynasty others will take up arms to put a Targ on the throne, willingly or no.

Not applicable to Rhaenys. Teenagers marrying girls in their twenties was in no way unprecedented (Maegor/Ceryse, some Freys). They could have chosen to kill just Aegon keep Rhaenys alive, waiting for Joffrey to be born...

On 1/23/2018 at 11:31 PM, John Suburbs said:

Keeping Jaime in the Kingsguard? My impression was that was part of the negotiations for Cersie's hand, brokered by Jon Arryn. With Jaime in the KG, there is a glimmer of hope that one day he would be free to become Lord of the Rock. In the Nights Watch, forget it.

Wrong timing. Reminding you again - Cersei was not then on the table.

Eddard was of course supposed to save his sister and bring Lyanna back as Robert´s queen.

The thing was: as Kingsguard, Jaime was a hostage. Sending him to Wall would have meant giving up the hostage. And releasing him from vows would also have meant giving up the hostage.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

Not applicable to Rhaenys. Teenagers marrying girls in their twenties was in no way unprecedented (Maegor/Ceryse, some Freys). They could have chosen to kill just Aegon keep Rhaenys alive, waiting for Joffrey to be born...

That's if you can keep Rhaenys secure for the next 15 years and if Robert would be willing to continue a Targeryen line that he spend so much blood and treasure overthrowing and if little Rhaenys isn't a complete basket-case after witnessing her mother and brother savagely murdered by two horrific knights. There's too many ifs. Killing both children is the only way to secure the new dynasty for certain. If he had access to Viserys and Dany, he would have killed them too.

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

Wrong timing. Reminding you again - Cersei was not then on the table.

Eddard was of course supposed to save his sister and bring Lyanna back as Robert´s queen.

The thing was: as Kingsguard, Jaime was a hostage. Sending him to Wall would have meant giving up the hostage. And releasing him from vows would also have meant giving up the hostage.

Do we know when all these pardons were handed out? Was it before Ned left for Storm's End and the ToJ, or when he got back? My impression has been that the Targ children were laid at Robert's feet (which had to happen fairly soon after their deaths?) and then Ned stormed off. Then Robert was crowned late in 283 and that's when he pardoned Jaime, Selmy, Varys, etc. By this time, Ned is back in the capital with news of Lyanna's death, arguing for Jaime to be sent to the wall. So by now, I'm thinking that negotiations over Cersei's hand are already underway, given that they were married in early 284. But admittedly, the timeline for the entire rebellion is wonky.

I don't see Jaime as quite the hostage for Robert as he was for Aerys. Robert is married to Cersie and his children are half-Lannister, so why would Robert feel he needed a hostage to keep Tywin loyal? All of Tywin's interests are tied to the success of the new dynasty.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

On 12/21/2017 at 4:19 PM, Jaak said:

Bad PR, yes. And a liability.

Robert had no other good excuse to keep hold of his hostage. Sending Jaime to Wall would have meant offending Tywin and losing a hostage. Returning Jaime to Casterly Rock would have pleased Tywin but also meant losing the hostage.

This is true, Jamie at Casterly Rock would have made Tywin ever so pleased, but here is the error of Robert though. Why wasn't there enough of his Storm land bannermen there? I wondered really, I understand Renly was lord of storms end but I feel Robert picked Ned to be Hand and never Tywin till his death. I mean it was Joffery took the throne after blackwater that Tywin was once again made Hand of the King. 

[Jaak]

On 1/31/2018 at 0:06 AM, John Suburbs said:

Do we know when all these pardons were handed out? Was it before Ned left for Storm's End and the ToJ, or when he got back? My impression has been that the Targ children were laid at Robert's feet (which had to happen fairly soon after their deaths?) and then Ned stormed off. Then Robert was crowned late in 283 and that's when he pardoned Jaime, Selmy, Varys, etc. By this time, Ned is back in the capital with news of Lyanna's death, arguing for Jaime to be sent to the wall.

My impression was rather that Ned argued for Jaime to be sent to the Wall after Robert had arrived at Iron Throne and approved of the murder of children as "dragonspawn". That´s when Ned stormed off to go and save Lyanna, and Robert pardoned Jaime - but ordered him to stay a Kingsguard, rather than be released to Casterly Rock.

On 1/31/2018 at 0:06 AM, John Suburbs said:

I don't see Jaime as quite the hostage for Robert as he was for Aerys. Robert is married to Cersie and his children are half-Lannister, so why would Robert feel he needed a hostage to keep Tywin loyal? All of Tywin's interests are tied to the success of the new dynasty.

Because assuming the decision to not send Jaime to wall nor release him, but keep him in Kingsguard was made before Eddard stormed off to save Lyanna - AND Stannis - then Robert was going to marry Lyanna. And Tyrells were in the field. Offending Tywin AND giving up the hostage by sending Jaime to the Wall still risked Tywin turning coat again and joining forces with Mace to crush Eddard.