Varysblackfyre321

Did Tywin have to kill Rheagar's children

69 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It would to the Dornish, and to the rest of the realm. Revenge would be justified for the killer and the person who made the decision to kill. If that decision originated with Clegane, then that is where the retribution should end. If the decision came from Tywin...

If Tywin is responsible without giving the order, then ultimately, the responsibility should fall on Robert, since it was all done in his name, even if he didn't give the order either.

Unlike Tywin, Robert wasn't Gregor's boss, and in RL military commanders are trialed for command responsibility.

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6 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Unlike Tywin, Robert wasn't Gregor's boss, and in RL military commanders are trialed for command responsibility.

Um, well, Robert was the leader of the rebellion, and at this point Tywin was fighting to put Robert on the throne, and then Robert did nothing to Tywin (or Gregor or Lorch) when he placed the dead children at his feet, and in fact raised him up to be one of the most powerful lords in the realm by marrying his daughter... So it's hard to see how Tywin would be responsible for a command he never gave simply because he was Gregor's boss but Robert is not responsible for a command he never gave, since he is Tywin's boss.

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, well, Robert was the leader of the rebellion, and at this point Tywin was fighting to put Robert on the throne, and then Robert did nothing to Tywin (or Gregor or Lorch) when he placed the dead children at his feet, and in fact raised him up to be one of the most powerful lords in the realm by marrying his daughter... So it's hard to see how Tywin would be responsible for a command he never gave simply because he was Gregor's boss but Robert is not responsible for a command he never gave, since he is Tywin's boss.

At that moment, Tywin was Robert's ally.

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18 hours ago, Kandrax said:

At that moment, Tywin was Robert's ally.

Not really, by the time of the sack and the murders, Robert had declared his intention to take the crown. So that means Tywin was subordinate and Robert was running the show.

Of course, this does not mean that the Martells would not want the deaths of both Tywin and Robert as justice for Elia and the children. It's just that if they extend responsibility for those murders to Tywin regardless of whether he issued the actual order or not, then logically they should extend it to Robert as well, because he was ultimately responsible for what happened.

Whether the Martells behave logically is an entirely different question.

 

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Not really, by the time of the sack and the murders, Robert had declared his intention to take the crown. So that means Tywin was subordinate and Robert was running the show.

Of course, this does not mean that the Martells would not want the deaths of both Tywin and Robert as justice for Elia and the children. It's just that if they extend responsibility for those murders to Tywin regardless of whether he issued the actual order or not, then logically they should extend it to Robert as well, because he was ultimately responsible for what happened.

Whether the Martells behave logically is an entirely different question.

 

OK both of them are responsible.

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On 8/2/2018 at 2:09 AM, John Suburbs said:

If he handed the children to Robert, he most likely would have spared them and they would have grown into a young man and young woman and the odds are very high that they would have had to fight the whole war all over again at some point in the future. It's a question of being absolutely certain that this cannot happen and just hoping that it cannot happen.

Elia sent back home, Aegon taken as a "guest" by Ned (maybe sent to the Watch as soon as possible, to be extra careful) and Rhaenys betrothed to Robert's firstborn son would have prevented any problems from them while at the same time severely weakening any other Targaryen claimant's position. I'm sure Tywin realized this, which is why I think he was in fact lying to Tyrion when he said Rhaegar's children had to die for the new regime to be stable.

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44 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Elia sent back home, Aegon taken as a "guest" by Ned (maybe sent to the Watch as soon as possible, to be extra careful) and Rhaenys betrothed to Robert's firstborn son would have prevented any problems from them while at the same time severely weakening any other Targaryen claimant's position. I'm sure Tywin realized this, which is why I think he was in fact lying to Tyrion when he said Rhaegar's children had to die for the new regime to be stable.

Aegon kept as a guest and then sent to the wall while forcing Rhaenys into a marriage designed to suit Robert's interests rather than Dorne's (and separating them from their mother in the bargain) would have inflamed Dorne and probably prevented the peace that Jon Arryn was able to so skillfully craft. Not to mention the logistical nightmare of keeping these children under control for the next 15 years or more so they could not be used to foment another rebellion. Heck, even if someone did not kidnap them, they could still inspire a drive to overthrow the usurper.

Also, these would be clear-cut decisions by Robert himself, rather than the actions of a lord who had not even sworn to Robert's cause at that point, and at a time when Robert was still hundreds of leagues away. With Tywin making these decisions himself, he can claim that all was done in Robert's name while Robert can claim he had nothing to do with it.

Killing the children removes any and all doubt that they can cause new trouble for the realm, while letting them live puts the future security of the new dynasty in jeopardy. Simple, cold, hard, political logic, which is the hallmark of Tywin's way of thinking.

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I really don't think that keeping Elia and her children alive would have inflamed Dorne more than slaughtering them did.

Aegon living in Winterfell wouldn't have been a logistical nightmare at all, I don't see any loyalist being able to get to him there; Rhaenys would have been trickier but nothing too hard. All in all I think in the long run it would have been more advantageous to show some mercy.

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:16 PM, Geddus said:

I really don't think that keeping Elia and her children alive would have inflamed Dorne more than slaughtering them did.

Aegon living in Winterfell wouldn't have been a logistical nightmare at all, I don't see any loyalist being able to get to him there; Rhaenys would have been trickier but nothing too hard. All in all I think in the long run it would have been more advantageous to show some mercy.

Robert at least has some measure of plausible deniability for their deaths. He did not give the order, he was not there and Tywin had not sworn fealty to him. True, he didn't punish Tywin, but right up to Gregor's confession the story was that their deaths were just a terrible accident -- civilian casualties of war.

This would not be the case if Robert were holding them hostage, forcing Aegon to take the black even though he committed no crime, and forcing Rhaenys to marry his heir. He would own their fates outright, and no one would be singing Robert's praises because, well, at least he hasn't killed them.

Somebody was able to get a catspaw into Winterfell to kill Bran. It isn't unthinkable that someone could kidnap Aegon. And as I mentioned, this would not even be necessary in order for others to start a counter-rebellion in his name. There mere fact that he is alive makes him a threat -- just as Viserys and Dany are.

It would not have been advantageous to Tywin, and he is the one making the decision here. Not only would his commitment to Robert be less solid, but they both represent the focal point for counter-rebellion.

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