U.S. Politics NEXT!

[GAROVORKIN]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

This observation though, to be blunt about it, evidences a real intellectual laziness. It's a glittering generality of an observation, that makes little effort to understand the precise nature of the policy disputes of both sides and who gets the better of the argument in most cases. Nor does it recognize the deplorable behavior of the GOP, like say nominating somebody like Moore for the Senate. It doesn't account for the fact that somebody like Trump blatantly ignores established norms and is aided and abetted by the conservative establishment and the Republican Party.

And then it doesn't recognize the fact that some people within the conservative movement have tried to warn people about the canary in the coal mine. People like David Brooks,  David Frum, Charlie Sykes, Matt Lewis, and James Pethokaukis have tried to sound the alarm, only to have it fall on deaf ears.

 

And what of the Democrats? What would you call some of the Tactics of those Knight of the Round table?

 

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

And the what of the Democrats ? What would call some their tactics of those knights of the round table.

I'm not saying Democrats are perfect. But, if you persist in this "both sides" thing, you'll just keep digging yourself into a deeper whole.

Since the election of George Bush, conservatives have blown it on just about every important issue we face. First, there was Bush's disastrous military decision making, that even most conservatives would have a hard time defending. And then when the financial crises hit, conservatives were basically wrong just about everything with regard too it (or maybe you don't remember "inflation just around the corner", "gold standard!", and the fairy tales about Swabian Housewives). They lied there asses off about the ACA, having no credible alternative. They sold nonsensical horseshit about "across state lines".  They don't take issues about global warming seriously. They won't engage concerning issues that concern race and gender. They don't take rising wealth inequality seriously.

And now here we are, and all the GOP and conservatives have is this nonsensical corporate tax cut, that is based on a load of conservative fairy tales. And to get this corporate tax cut, they lied about its likely effects, we're willing to play footsy or play nicely with alt right morons,  and were willing to over look Trump's jackassery.

So please could we stop with this "both sides" stuff.

About this time in our history, I'd say it's time to get real tough on the conservatism.

[OldGimletEye]

Dean Baker's very interesting graph:

 

And I add one of my own. I swap out investment and put in capacity utilization.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=h5YB

[LongRider]

@OldGimletEye you're being sea lioned by G, it's a form of trolling.  It's Christmas, go enjoy yourself.

[GAROVORKIN]

1 hour ago, Nasty LongRider said:

@OldGimletEye you're being sea lioned by G, it's a form of trolling.  It's Christmas, go enjoy yourself.

 

 . Christmas is not a good time to  and  over foolish things like politics .  Its a time to be with family .  And be glad that we're all altogether to celebrate Christmas and the coming of a new year.

[GAROVORKIN]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

I'm not saying Democrats are perfect. But, if you persist in this "both sides" thing, you'll just keep digging yourself into a deeper whole.

Since the election of George Bush, conservatives have blown it on just about every important issue we face. First, there was Bush's disastrous military decision making, that even most conservatives would have a hard time defending. And then when the financial crises hit, conservatives were basically wrong just about everything with regard too it (or maybe you don't remember "inflation just around the corner", "gold standard!", and the fairy tales about Swabian Housewives). They lied there asses off about the ACA, having no credible alternative. They sold nonsensical horseshit about "across state lines".  They don't take issues about global warming seriously. They won't engage concerning issues that concern race and gender. They don't take rising wealth inequality seriously.

And now here we are, and all the GOP and conservatives have is this nonsensical corporate tax cut, that is based on a load of conservative fairy tales. And to get this corporate tax cut, they lied about its likely effects, we're willing to play footsy or play nicely with alt right morons,  and were willing to over look Trump's jackassery.

So please could we stop with this "both sides" stuff.

About this time in our history, I'd say it's time to get real tough on the conservatism.

 

Im not as blind and intellectually lazy as you might think I am. I have my point of view and you have have your's. Perhaps it's best to leave it at that for now. It's Christmas . 

[Martell Spy]

34 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Dean Baker's very interesting graph:

 

And I add one of my own. I swap out investment and put in capacity utilization.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=h5YB

Yeah, I just read an interview with one of the CATO fools claiming this tax cut bill is going to cause the factories to return. Yep, so we have that to look forward to I guess.

[LongRider]

1 minute ago, Martell Spy said:

Yeah, I just read an interview with one of the CATO fools claiming this tax cut bill is going to cause the factories to return. Yep, so we have that to look forward to I guess.

Factories full of temp workers.  Oh the beautiful jobs!    

[Mudguard]

4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

It's not a fair argument, because as I explained they used a healthcare inflation index to adjust for inflation rather than a general inflation index. Once again, using a healthcare inflation index tells me whether the consumption of the"basket" of healthcare goods increased in real terms. It does not tell me how the relative price of healthcare goods increased compared to other consumption goods. It does not tell me if increased healthcare spending is being burdensome on other consumption choices. For that you should use a general inflation index.

The whole point of the ACA was to increase real healthcare consumption, particularly among those whole didn't have it, while slowing down its burden on the consumption of other goods. It would seem it was successful in that.

There's no way you can determine whether the ACA was responsible for slowing down the burden on the consumption of other goods from looking at those two indexes.

Also, I thought the cost of healthcare was still increasing at a rate greater than the rate of general inflation.  The spikes in the cost of health insurance sure doesn't seem like healthcare is getting cheaper relative to other goods.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, Mudguard said:

There's no way you can determine whether the ACA was responsible for slowing down the burden on the consumption of other goods from looking at those two indexes.

Also, I thought the cost of healthcare was still increasing at a rate greater than the rate of general inflation.  The spikes in the cost of health insurance sure doesn't seem like healthcare is getting cheaper relative to other goods.

Okay, but using one index, you find the ACA increased real healthcare consumption, which was the point of doing it, as some people without insurance were not able to consume any healthcare. Otherwise, why pass it? 

With the other index, you find, that the ACA didn't become a big burden on other consumption choices when compared to historical baselines (ie before the ACA was passed). That seems pretty good. And that is hardly an indictment about the alleged failure of the ACA. 

At any rate, it's extremely misleading to use only a healthcare inflation index to show how the ACA increased real burdens on people.

For more direct evidence that the ACA might have slowed down healthcare's relative price inflation, here:

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/november/contribution-to-low-pce-inflation-from-healthcare/

[Altherion]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

This observation though, to be blunt about it, evidences a real intellectual laziness. It's a glittering generality of an observation, that makes little effort to understand the precise nature of the policy disputes of both sides and who gets the better of the argument in most cases. Nor does it recognize the deplorable behavior of the GOP, like say nominating somebody like Moore for the Senate. It doesn't account for the fact that somebody like Trump blatantly ignores established norms and is aided and abetted by the conservative establishment and the Republican Party.

You are seriously tempting me to change my title to something like "Proud Both-Sidist"; I just need to think of a way to word it.

The precise nature of the policy disputes is esoteric and mostly meaningless because implementation matters and both sides (  ) can find ways to make seemingly surefire policies unpopular once people see what the implementation entails. As to the violation of norms and "deplorable" behavior, it is aided and abetted not because the conservatives like it, but because the old norms were so clearly worthless that even the voters have finally caught on and the conservatives' desire for power outweighs any distaste for the new ways.

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

And then it doesn't recognize the fact that some people within the conservative movement have tried to warn people about the canary in the coal mine. People like David Brooks,  David Frum, Charlie Sykes, Matt Lewis, and James Pethokaukis have tried to sound the alarm, only to have it fall on deaf ears.

I don't think it fell entirely on deaf ears: based on reading the comments sections of outlets reporting on the views of these conservatives (I'lm not sure about the last there, but I've definitely seen at least Brooks and Frum), there exist quite a few people who despise them and take their sounding of the alarm as an indication of something finally having gone right.

[Martell Spy]

Quote

“What I did, I would like to compare to what Jesus did when he went into the temple and overturned the tables of the moneychangers, who were exploiting the people financially in the name of religion. I feel like that’s what the GOP has done to the American people,” Robert Strong told KPCC radio station. Strong said he’s well aware that the stunt could cost him his job and even expressed surprise he hasn’t been arrested, but it sounds like he thinks any consequence to his action would be worth it. “In the long run, if we don’t do stuff like this, what are we going to have left?”

Man Who Left Manure at Treasury Secretary’s Home Calls it “Act of Political Theater”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/12/man-who-left-manure-at-treasury-secretarys-home-calls-it-act-of-political-theater.html

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Bill Kristol on whether we could have predicted the rise of demagoguery back in 2008.

The answer to that is a resounding yes - and Bill Kristol bears substantial responsibility in its rise, which to be fair he does (kind of) own up to at least vis-a-vis his support for Palin.  However, one quote in that interview is terribly ironic:

Quote

Maybe. She wasn’t well-educated, but I don’t think there was the kind of systematic attempt to deny truth and truthfulness and make up things and just lie the way Trump does. She was proud of being the first woman to be nominated as vice president. 

I know he just misspoke, but the truth is Geraldine Ferraro was the first woman nominated as vice president Bill!

[GAROVORKIN]

31 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

The answer to that is a resounding yes - and Bill Kristol bears substantial responsibility in its rise, which to be fair he does (kind of) own up to at least vis-a-vis his support for Palin.  However, one quote in that interview is terribly ironic:

I know he just misspoke, but the truth is Geraldine Ferraro was the first woman nominated as vice president Bill!

And Geraldine  Ferraro  being on the ticket didn't help Mondale at all. But then again, he never really had a realistic chance of beating Ronald Reagan. 

[OldGimletEye]

On 12/25/2017 at 0:18 PM, Martell Spy said:

Yeah, I just read an interview with one of the CATO fools claiming this tax cut bill is going to cause the factories to return. Yep, so we have that to look forward to I guess.

All our libertarian overlords wanted was a peaceful land and a quiet people. But, they sense the peasants are getting restless, so they’ve called forth their bannerman, the Cato Clowns, to go forth and quell the peasant rebellion by hurling bullshit at them.

[GAROVORKIN]

10 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

All our libertarian overlords wanted was a peaceful land and a quiet people. But, they sense the peasants are getting restless, so they’ve called forth their bannerman, the Cato Clowns, to go forth and quell the peasant rebellion by hurling bullshit at them.

 

I see a best selling novel or movie in that one. It will be a sweeping epic .  

 

 Im kidding.

[Martell Spy]

42 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

All our libertarian overlords wanted was a peaceful land and a quiet people. But, they sense the peasants are getting restless, so they’ve called forth their bannerman, the Cato Clowns, to go forth and quell the peasant rebellion by hurling bullshit at them.

Well, if you like that one, your good friend Larry Kudlow is now saying that Trump and the Republicans are on the side of the "Growth Angels" due to the tax bill. Also, that Democrats are now hoping that the economy tanks or some such. Maybe the Growth Angels tie in somehow with Supply Side Jesus.

[ThinkerX]

22 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Well, if you like that one, your good friend Larry Kudlow is now saying that Trump and the Republicans are on the side of the "Growth Angels" due to the tax bill. Also, that Democrats are now hoping that the economy tanks or some such. Maybe the Growth Angels tie in somehow with Supply Side Jesus.

And on that note, we have wage hikes and bonus's being handed out by our corporate overlords, supposedly as a result of the tax bill - though I strongly suspect an 'appease the peasants before they riot' motivation combined with a bit of arm twisting.  I suspect the positive effect will be short term at best.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/this-is-just-the-start-of-companies-increasing-spending.html

 

[Martell Spy]

Quote

But Donald Trump is not a fine individual and he appeals to that dark side, and he has shown how much of the support for Republican candidates around the country is based on some of these dark impulses. And frankly, to me, it’s been unnerving. It’s been deeply disturbing as somebody who was a life-long Republican, because what I see happening is that a lot of the criticisms the Democrats have made about Republicans—and which I resisted for years—have actually been vindicated.

‘He Would Probably Be a Dictator by Now’
Two charter leaders of the #NeverTrump movement assess Year One.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/18/he-would-probably-be-a-dictator-by-now-216113

[OldGimletEye]

On 12/25/2017 at 1:34 PM, Altherion said:

You are seriously tempting me to change my title to something like "Proud Both-Sidist"; I just need to think of a way to word it.

And I’d say being a “both sider” is nothing particularly to be proud of at this juncture. I think, generally speaking, there are two different varieties of both siders these days. They are:

1. The person who want look like they are the reasonable centrist. I have nothing particularly against centrist types per  se, so long as they can reasonably articulate their policy views, but I have a bit of disdain for people that try to look all centristy and reasonable by simply declaring “it’s both sides”. They think they look reasonable and stuff, but really they just come off as being very intellectually lazy and unserious and phony.

2. The conservative who realizes he’s losing the argument and retreats to the safety of “both sides” in attempt to get a breather. But I’m not inclined to allow conservative sorts of people the comfort and safety of “both sidesism” when they suddenly realize their arguments are going down the crapper. I not very inclined to give conservative sorts of people much of a respite, after declaring “it’s both sides!”, particularly after conservative clown man picked the fight by saying “golly, that’s libuuural!”.

On 12/25/2017 at 1:34 PM, Altherion said:

The precise nature of the policy disputes is esoteric and mostly meaningless because implementation matters and both sides (  ) can find ways to make seemingly surefire policies unpopular once people see what the implementation entails. As to the violation of norms and "deplorable" behavior, it is aided and abetted not because the conservatives like it, but because the old norms were so clearly worthless that even the voters have finally caught on and the conservatives' desire for power outweighs any distaste for the new ways..

Of course we care about work for the unemployed, health care for the sick, improving the lives of most people, and stopping financial crises.

Cross our hearts and hope to die.

We just don’t like the way liberals are doing it. Just turn everything over to us. We will do more of them. We will do them better. And most importantly of all, the doing of them won’t cost anyone anything.

FDR faced the ol' “we’ll implement things better"  argument back in the 1930s and rightly mocked and laughed in the face of the Republican Party.

FDR’s New Deal was not perfect. Some mistakes were made. I do not believe the National Industrial Recovery Act was a particularly good piece of policy. But, over all FDR, got more shit right then he got wrong, and his policies were certainly better than that of Herbert Hoover who floundered helplessly as the country reached an unemployment rate of 25%, which was disastrous.

Similarly, none of the legislation implemented by a Democratic congress was perfect. And there is still room for improvement. But, acknowledging that, does not imply that they were implemented so badly, as to be essentially worthless, making both parties functionally the same as you’d like us to believe.

And if you wan’t to talk about bad implementations of policy, try this ridiculous corporprate tax bill. Even if one were to think corporate tax reform was one of our most pressing policies, the fact of the matter the Republican Party massively screwed it up. And then lets go back to Dubya’s terrible invasion of Iraq which was a demonstration in massive incompetence. Or how about the Brownback Boom. Somehow the Republican Party has managed to gain more power than it’s had since the 1920s. And it doesn’t deserve to be put in charge of a lemonade stand. It can’t even implement it’s own policies very well. It's policies are bad for most people and they very much screw up their implementations.

On 12/25/2017 at 1:34 PM, Altherion said:

I don't think it fell entirely on deaf ears: based on reading the comments sections of outlets reporting on the views of these conservatives (I'lm not sure about the last there, but I've definitely seen at least Brooks and Frum), there exist quite a few people who despise them and take their sounding of the alarm as an indication of something finally having gone right.

Maybe I’m wrong here and forgot something. Maybe somebody can point to me some data where conservatives are having a change of heart. But, far as  I know, they aren’t for the most part and they are largely sticking with Trump and the Republican Party’s ridiculous shennigans.