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Catalan thread continued


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16 hours ago, maarsen said:

I look back on the history of the Quebec independence movement as a guide for other region's independence aspirations. The Parti Quebecois won the provincial elections, campaigning on holding a referendum on independence at some point during their mandate. A significant majority of people did vote for the PQ  but when the time came for the actual referendum, Quebec voted to stay in Canada.  People in Catalonia may have voted for parties that are in favour of independence but the voters are more likely to have voted with the idea of choosing the most competent party to actually run Catalonia. Would you think the same holds true in Scotland?

It more than holds true: it has been the SNP's entire strategy. First, demonstrate that you can run the country competently under devolution: then, use that to persuade people that independence is a viable option. It remains the strategy even after the failure of the first referendum.

However, in this particular case, the Catalan election seems to have been pretty clearly on the constitutional question. Despite that, I'd agree that the result doesn't indicate a clear majority view either way.

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7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I refer to the fact that voters should know beforehand if their vote is gonna be for an implementation of the Republic, another UDI or trying to reach agreements that seem impossible/middle term independence. Since the two forces have been ambiguous in these lections so as not to to lose voters, nobody really knows what's gonna happen, although post declarations seem to indicate that it's more the "pact" thing; but some messages are still ambiguous: "this is the Republic" (does it mean you will agree with CUP on another UDI?) but at the same time leaders of ERc aso saying they are wanting to "make Republic" with Comú/Podem (how can they do Republic? is it figurative, meaning ruling in the country of Catalonia? Comú won't vote for Puigdemont and ERC can't rule without him, and they know that. Comú won't vote for a government that goes the unilateral way...(while CUP says it's the only way they are gonna be there to support)

 

I must say it is indeed all very confusing. 

Our president of the Flemish Nationalist Party (Puigd's friends who are housing him in Sint-Pauwels ;)) said Puigd and his government actually only wanted to achieve with the referendum as something to force Spain during the negotiations. I think we all can agree that was a miscalculation.

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17 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I must say it is iState all very confusing. 

Our president of the Flemish Nationalist Party (Puigd's friends who are housing him in Sint-Pauwels ;)) said Puigd and his government actually only wanted to achieve with the referendum as something to force Spain during the negotiations. I think we all can agree that was a miscalculation.

Yes I agree A miscalculation of the response of the State. But they also wanted internation recognisition before; and later international mediation and they failed on that. Because for some reason international actors only agree with Rajoy and everything is an internal matter that Rajoy will solve magically alone with success for the Eu  Giving therir support only to him

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23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes I agree A miscalculation of the response of the Atate. But they also wanted internation recognisition before and later international mediation and they dailed on that. Because for some reason international actors only agree with Rajoy and everything isan internal matter that Rajoy will solve magically alone with success for the Eu  Giving thrir suppory onlynto him

It kind of remind me of what exactly happened 100 years ago. 

On the night of 22 and 23 december 2017 the Raad van Vlaanderen, a quasi-independent government existing of people of the Flemish movement, proclaimed the autonomy and the independence of Flanders. It was also done with the intention to force the German invaders who were then negotiating peace, not chose for a federal Belgium (https://doorbraak.be/de-staatsgreep-van-borms/). Or something like that. 

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raad_van_Vlaanderen) Happy Birthday Declaration of Independence decided by some 50 people! How democratic :dunno: But then I actually think there was not a lot of democracy then in Belgium because we were under German rule. 

A lot of them were also arrested and imprisoned. But they were not prosecuted for rebellion but rather for the fact they collaborated with the German invaders. 

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I hope for Puigdemont he doesn't get the same punishment as the one who committed the coup by de Raad van Vlaanderen (that was a coup), August Borms

He was firstly punished to death after the WOI because he collaborated with the Germans (and at the same time he declared against their wish Flanders independent). But a papal diplomate intervened saying Borms went only to Germany for visiting Flemish prisoners rather than discussing the collaboration. He was then prisoned for life. 

In the inter-bellum he was political active from prison. He refused early release because it would bar him from being electable for elections. He campaigned from jail.

And during the WOII he was again involved in the collaboration. The German governor created an committee with as task to investigate the alleged atrocities committed by the Belgian government against the collaborators of WOI and distributing compensations. Borms was appointed to chair this body. 

And then after the WOII he was sentenced again to death penalty and he was finally executed. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Borms

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13 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I hope for Puigdemont he doesn't get the same punishment as the one who committed the coup by de Raad van Vlaanderen (that was a coup), August Borms

He was firstly punished to death after the WOI because he collaborated with the Germans (and at the same time he declared against their wish Flanders independent). But a papal diplomate intervened saying Borms went only to Germany for visiting Flemish prisoners rather than discussing the collaboration. He was then prisoned for life. 

In the inter-bellum he was political active from prison. He refused early release because it would bar him from being electable for elections. He campaigned from jail.

And during the WOII he was again involved in the collaboration. The German governor created an committee with as task to investigate the alleged atrocities committed by the Belgian government against the collaborators of WOI and distributing compensations. Borms was appointed to chair this body. 

And then after the WOII he was sentenced again to death penalty and he was finally executed. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Borms

14 hours ago, Tijgy said:

It kind of remind me of what exactly happened 100 years ago. 

On the night of 22 and 23 december 2017 the Raad van Vlaanderen, a quasi-independent government existing of people of the Flemish movement, proclaimed the autonomy and the independence of Flanders. It was also done with the intention to force the German invaders who were then negotiating peace, not chose for a federal Belgium (https://doorbraak.be/de-staatsgreep-van-borms/). Or something like that. 

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raad_van_Vlaanderen) Happy Birthday Declaration of Independence decided by some 50 people! How democratic :dunno: But then I actually think there was not a lot of democracy then in Belgium because we were under German rule. 

A lot of them were also arrested and imprisoned. But they were not prosecuted for rebellion but rather for the fact they collaborated with the German invaders. 

Thank you for your links. Its always nice to learn some history.

Prosecutors and politicians are saying he is guilty of a coup d'état. The current situation is that he is accused of sedition and rebellion, 50 years (plus the minor ones related to disobedience, misappropiation, perversion of justice..) Here   you can learn about what he is accused exactly (and years in prison of each one).

Rebellion is the most controversial one and leads to  more years to prison, 15 at least.

I have read  that rebellion is related to violence and apparently the jurisprudence includes non physical violence as a "concept" of violence (for instance, coercion), so they say he indeed committed rebellion. Information here

Prosecutors are trying to argue that there was coercion and thus rebellion and "violence" in many of the demonstrations (trying to convince the demonstrators of independence and disobedience of the law- this article).

Some people disagree with this interpretation of the concept, and say that he can't be charged for that, because they changed the law 22 years ago so as that rebellion involved violence  Here you have this information

The article says that the creators of the definition of the crime of rebellion in 1995 included an amendment  with the violent thing so as that the actions in defense of independence wouldn't be punished if they were done in a non-violent way.

"The crime of rebellion is not only to declare the independence of a part of the territory of Spain, it is criminals of the crime of rebellion that rise violently and publicly for any of the purposes contemplated, one of them, independence," he says.

PS: The articles are from Spanish newspapers. I tried to translate it with google itools but it doesn't work anymore. Maybe you could use the automatic translator with your browser

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A letter to the two Jordi's - the two leaders of the independent movements who are still in prison by a one of the editors of an on-line magazine with sympathies towards Flemish (Independence) Movement: 

https://doorbraak.be/open-kerstgroet-aan-twee-europese-politieke-gevangenen/

It is in Dutch and in Catalan.

 

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@Meera of Tarth

Puigdemont and his lawyer went to the opera of Gand to watch together Le duc d'Albe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_duc_d'Albe) on the invitation by the director. How symbolic :D

LOL

The Spanish diplomat was also invited but he wasn't apparently very interested to see the story of the duke of Alba.  

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On 2017-12-22 at 0:14 PM, maarsen said:

I look back on the history of the Quebec independence movement as a guide for other region's independence aspirations. The Parti Quebecois won the provincial elections, campaigning on holding a referendum on independence at some point during their mandate. A significant majority of people did vote for the PQ  but when the time came for the actual referendum, Quebec voted to stay in Canada.  People in Catalonia may have voted for parties that are in favour of independence but the voters are more likely to have voted with the idea of choosing the most competent party to actually run Catalonia. Would you think the same holds true in Scotland?

Actually the PQ didn't win a majority in either 1976 or 1994 (41% and then 45%). The next step in 1998 was to be a "competent" government so as to create "winning conditions" for another referendum after the near miss of 1995. But in that election the PQ wound up winning fewer votes than the Liberals, despite still getting a majority of seats. 

I guess the question in Scotland and - eventually - Catalonia is whether there is a potential for "referendum fatigue", where it's considered a vote loser even to mention it. These are the most divisive of divisive political conflicts. At some point the aspirations of "self-determination" for people living in a rich country who are not in any meaningful way oppressed don't quite last. 

On 2017-12-23 at 5:14 AM, mormont said:

It more than holds true: it has been the SNP's entire strategy. First, demonstrate that you can run the country competently under devolution: then, use that to persuade people that independence is a viable option. It remains the strategy even after the failure of the first referendum.

However, in this particular case, the Catalan election seems to have been pretty clearly on the constitutional question. Despite that, I'd agree that the result doesn't indicate a clear majority view either way.

In Quebec, the PQ is currently competing for third place, having gone down the road of identity (read anti-Muslim) politics, while successfully alienating traditional labour allies over many years of, well, alienating them. 

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7 hours ago, Tijgy said:

@Meera of Tarth

Puigdemont and his lawyer went to the opera of Gand to watch together Le duc d'Albe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_duc_d'Albe) on the invitation by the director. How symbolic :D

LOL

The Spanish diplomat was also invited but he wasn't apparently very interested to see the story of the duke of Alba.  

Yes, I know, it happened last month or early December I think! 

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  • 3 weeks later...
7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

so these days the Parliament is being elected.....there is a President of the Parliament right now.

but not President of Catalonia....

Junts per Catalunya want to make Carles Puigdemont president again. The problem is that he's currently in Belgium, so unless he returns (which he doesn't want to do because he fears he'd be arrested) they'd have to make him president 'in absentia'.

Esquerra Republicana has been shuffling its feet around about this. It's apparently against the Catalan parliament's own rules (according to their lawyers) and Spain has threatened to take new punitive measures if the rule is disregarded. Esquerra currently holds the presidency of the regional government house (in the person of Roger Torrent), so he'd hold the main responsibility (and he has reasons to worry; the previous president of the house, Carmen Forcadell, has had to resign from all political responsibilities because her lawyer said it would undermine her legal defence).

Meanwhile, CUP (whose 4 votes are needed) say that they will only invest a president if they're given guarantees that they will continue the unilateral secession from Spain without dialogue or compromise (though they'd presumably be happy with Puigdemont, whom I think currently represents the more militant wing of Junts per Catalunya).

It's a difficult situation. I'm guessing a notable part of Junts per Catalunya and Esquerra would rather tone the independence discourse down (if only for a while) after the lack of international support the short lived Catalan Republic got and the aggressive response by Spain, but this would not sit well at all with CUP (who have already harshly criticised Roger Torrent's conciliatory tone when he took possession of his position as head of the regional government house).

It's anyone's guess what will happen in the next few months.

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13 hours ago, Mentat said:

Junts per Catalunya want to make Carles Puigdemont president again. The problem is that he's currently in Belgium, so unless he returns (which he doesn't want to do because he fears he'd be arrested) they'd have to make him president 'in absentia'.

Esquerra Republicana has been shuffling its feet around about this. It's apparently against the Catalan parliament's own rules (according to their lawyers) and Spain has threatened to take new punitive measures if the rule is disregarded. Esquerra currently holds the presidency of the regional government house (in the person of Roger Torrent), so he'd hold the main responsibility (and he has reasons to worry; the previous president of the house, Carmen Forcadell, has had to resign from all political responsibilities because her lawyer said it would undermine her legal defence).

Meanwhile, CUP (whose 4 votes are needed) say that they will only invest a president if they're given guarantees that they will continue the unilateral secession from Spain without dialogue or compromise (though they'd presumably be happy with Puigdemont, whom I think currently represents the more militant wing of Junts per Catalunya).

It's a difficult situation. I'm guessing a notable part of Junts per Catalunya and Esquerra would rather tone the independence discourse down (if only for a while) after the lack of international support the short lived Catalan Republic got and the aggressive response by Spain, but this would not sit well at all with CUP (who have already harshly criticised Roger Torrent's conciliatory tone when he took possession of his position as head of the regional government house).

It's anyone's guess what will happen in the next few months.

well CUP with only 4 MPs I don't think they'd oppose to a non-unilateral way, they'd probably neither vote in favour or against, but who knows.

tomorrow Puigdemont will visit Denmark for a conference about Catalan politics  and they say that Spain could reactivate the EAW

now  in Junts x Cat they say that maybe Puigdemont could not be arrested if he returned because he'd have the immunity of MPs

The SP Government said that they'd not accept Puigdemont as President and the 155 willl continue

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On 1/19/2018 at 10:05 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

well CUP with only 4 MPs I don't think they'd oppose to a non-unilateral way, they'd probably neither vote in favour or against, but who knows.

tomorrow Puigdemont will visit Denmark for a conference about Catalan politics  and they say that Spain could reactivate the EAW

now  in Junts x Cat they say that maybe Puigdemont could not be arrested if he returned because he'd have the immunity of MPs

The SP Government said that they'd not accept Puigdemont as President and the 155 willl continue

I really don't think CUP will back down from their positions and start compromising. They need to fight their electoral ground with Esquerra and stick to their identity. They lost 6 seats in the last election. To me it was mainly because both Junts per Catalunya and Esquerra have become more radical and have thus taken over much of CUP's turf. Lots of Catalan voters in favor of independence have turned to the bigger, stronger parties as the more 'useful' vote.

I really don't think whoever is the decision-maker in this (a Supreme Court magistrate, I guess) will reinstate the EAW. It would be a really stupid mistake. I do think Puigdemont will be arrested if he returns. MP immunity won't help (he was already an MP when he fled).

The Spanish government won't accept an 'in absentia' nomination. If it does happen it might be the 155 all over again. For the parties that favor independence it would be much easier to just nominate someone else, but it would be a symbolical defeat, so they'd initially be loathe to.

 

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5 hours ago, Mentat said:

I really don't think CUP will back down from their positions and start compromising. They need to fight their electoral ground with Esquerra and stick to their identity. They lost 6 seats in the last election. To me it was mainly because both Junts per Catalunya and Esquerra have become more radical and have thus taken over much of CUP's turf. Lots of Catalan voters in favor of independence have turned to the bigger, stronger parties as the more 'useful' vote.

Could be, or either the contrary. Maybe people are a bit tired of the radicalism of CUP, otherwise, I don't know why their voters went to the other parties, or maybe they want something in the middle or went for a moe useful vote, like tohose from PP who voted Citizens.

Quote

I really don't think whoever is the decision-maker in this (a Supreme Court magistrate, I guess) will reinstate the EAW. It would be a really stupid mistake. I do think Puigdemont will be arrested if he returns. MP immunity won't help (he was already an MP when he fled).

The Prosecutor is saying that the EAW will be reactivated tomorrow when he goes to Copenhagen.:huh:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180121/44188089339/fiscalia-detencion-puigdemont-dinamarca.html

 

Quote

The Spanish government won't accept an 'in absentia' nomination. If it does happen it might be the 155 all over again. For the parties that favor independence it would be much easier to just nominate someone else, but it would be a symbolical defeat, so they'd initially be loathe to.

 

Yes, SP Government has already said they won't accept that. I agree.

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4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The Prosecutor is saying that the EAW will be reactivated tomorrow when he goes to Copenhagen.:huh:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180121/44188089339/fiscalia-detencion-puigdemont-dinamarca.html

The Public Prosecutor can request that the judge do so, but it's not up to him. La Vanguardia (my Catalan newspaper of choice BTW :P) doesn't think it's likely.

That said, it's certainly not impossible. We can wait and see.

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15 minutes ago, Mentat said:

The Public Prosecutor can request that the judge do so, but it's not up to him. La Vanguardia (my Catalan newspaper of choice BTW :P) doesn't think it's likely.

That said, it's certainly not impossible. We can wait and see.

Oh, thanks, I had not read everything.

Well, let's see what they all do tomorrow.

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NEWS! @Tijgy

Rajoy has recognised the Republic of Catalonia (this or Spain has just become a Republic)

In the last elections of the Republic in Catalonia.....

 

The same interviewer who had to clarufy to him last year that the Spanish nationality is not lost in case of independence according to the Constitution (and the European...)

He was also asked about police operations, he said he doesn't have experience on that, to what the interviewer told him: "you once were Minister of Internal affairs" :P

Meanwhile, CUP will debate this Saturday if they give support to Puigdemont (they are not sure 'cause they want the implementation of the Republic) but their 4 seats are important, although it's unlikely that Puigdemont could become President even with te Support because he should manage to arrive inside the Parliament without the Police finding him (now the controls in the frontiers are more extensive, looking at the trunks of the cars, they are even investigating the sewers of the Parliament) and the Catalan Office of Brussels has ben closed today because Spain thought that the President of the Parliament of Catalonia would meet Puigdemont there and that's unacceptable.

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