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Catalan thread continued


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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Rajoy has recognised the Republic of Catalonia (this or Spain has just become a Republic)

 

It was probably an accident ? :P

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28 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

It was probably an accident ? :P

Yeah, the other day he also mistook the high speed trains he was inaugurating for planes, it's a normal thing to happen to him.

Maybe this interviewer makes him nervous. but it's curious that he had the word Republic on his mind associated with Catalonia LOL

 

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2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yeah, the other day he also mistook the high speed trains he was inaugurating for planes, it's a normal thing to happen to him.

Maybe this interviewer makes him nervous. but it's curious that he had the word Republic on his mind associated with Catalonia LOL

 

It is the stress. 

It is probably not very easy to have a part of your country hating your guts :dunno: Maybe he wants personally the independence of Catalonia. He would be finally free from all the stress. 

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On 1/24/2018 at 10:40 PM, Tijgy said:

It is the stress. 

Yeah, could be.

Quote

It is probably not very easy to have a part of your country hating your guts :dunno: Maybe he wants personally the independence of Catalonia. He would be finally free from all the stress. 

Nah, I don't think he wants it, he could have ended the chaos by giving ancient demands to the catalans to relief the tension or organising a referendum even if the question was asked to all the citizens of Spain, there are many ways to try to solve the problem, but he just makes it even worse. And at his age he could go away from the party if they didn't like what he did, so it's not that this is an excuse either.

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@Tijgy

The VicePresident of Spain has contested the investiture of Puigdemont in the Constitutional Court, days before it happens. (the investiture debate takes place next Tuesday in the Parliament)

The State Council  had said they didn't recommend that contestation before the debate.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok, so news about the Catalan situation:...

The Constitutional Court, after hours of deliberation because they were not sur eof what to do,  approved cautionary measures so as that Puigdemont was not elected President in a telematic way (that was last week).

Now they are thinking of electing him symbolically (there would be two Presidents of Catalonia, one in Belgium and the other in Catalonia, who would do whatever Puigdemont's Government in Exile decided); but this will unlikely become real (legal issues of this "interpretation" f the Catalan Presidency).

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/07/amnesty-calls-for-immediate-release-of-jordi-sanchez-jailed-catalan-leader?__twitter_impression=true

Puigdemont, who fled to Brussels in late October, faces arrest on possible charges of rebellion, sedition and misuse of public funds the moment he returns to Spain.

However, he remains the only candidate for the Catalan presidency and is reported to be exploring the legal and political possibilities of setting up an exiled “Council of the Republic” in Belgium while a government in Barcelona focuses on the day-to-day running of Catalonia.

According to the Barcelona-based daily La Vanguardia, Puigdemont plans to establish the council in Brussels on 18 February, while a separate session would see him voted in as Catalan president in the regional parliament three or four days later. Were the latter option to prove difficult, the other pro-independence parties would be offered an alternative candidate from Together for Catalonia.

The Spanish government is fiercely opposed to Puigdemont’s return to office and has said a “clean candidate” needs to be put forward to lead the region.

It has also said that the emergency legislation that allowed it to take control of Catalonia will remain in force until a new president is sworn in. If no candidate is proposed and approved over the coming weeks, parliament will be dissolved and new elections called.

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9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Now they are thinking of electing him symbolically (there would be two Presidents of Catalonia, one in Belgium and the other in Catalonia, who would do whatever Puigdemont's Government in Exile decided); but this will unlikely become real (legal issues of this "interpretation" f the Catalan Presidency).

This seems by far like the more likely scenario. The pro-independence parties know the Spanish government won't tolerate a second Puigdemont presidency, and I don't think they have the stomach for another clash like the one that provoked autonomy intervention in the first place. An alternative president with no entanglements with justice will be elected (La Vanguardia has its bets on Elsa Artadi) and Puigdemont will stay in Brussels as an unofficial 'President in Exile' nominated by an self-appointed assembly of independence supporters.

To me the whole affair seems pretty ludicrous. The level of twisting (or completely disregarding) legality by both sides is appalling. Dark days for democracy :(

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5 hours ago, Mentat said:

This seems by far like the more likely scenario. The pro-independence parties know the Spanish government won't tolerate a second Puigdemont presidency, and I don't think they have the stomach for another clash like the one that provoked autonomy intervention in the first place. An alternative president with no entanglements with justice will be elected (La Vanguardia has its bets on Elsa Artadi) and Puigdemont will stay in Brussels as an unofficial 'President in Exile' nominated by an self-appointed assembly of independence supporters.

To me the whole affair seems pretty ludicrous. The level of twisting (or completely disregarding) legality by both sides is appalling. Dark days for democracy :(

It's a clash of trains. The big one and the small one who feels disrespected institutionally speaking and that interprets legality so that he can be elected even if technically he would not be able to rule from Belgium...

Nowehere says that he could not be elected in a telematic way, but we all know it's weird. Meanwhile, the big trains feels no shame in keeping people in preventive jail for alleged "sedition" or "rebellion" and I think they pushed the Constitutional Court so as that they said that Puigdemont could only be elected if the judge said so (aka arriving here so as to go to prison :rolleyes:) bc they stayed all day thinking of it. Suspicious. They just want a President they like. They are incapable of dealing with catalans. But hwy would they care? That helps them to cover their corruption, and the Constitutional Court and Judges of State are not precisely neutral.

I don't know if it willbe Elsa Artadi, seems plausible. Anyway in two months all the well-known names will be barred from Politics according to the Supreme Court.

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  • 3 weeks later...

So apparently this week there could be a new Government in Catalonia, with Jordi Sánchez  (one of the "Jordis" in prison) as President.

@Tijgy I've just read that Puigdemont has been invited to a debate by the young members of the liberal party of Flanders, and that Citizens and Guy Verhofstadt didn't like that?

PS: 

https://www.facebook.com/JongVldGent/videos/1211168262320116/

 

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12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

So apparently this week there could be a new Government in Catalonia, with Jordi Sánchez  (one of the "Jordis" in prison) as President.

Spanish press is still rather sceptical about it this (which doesn't mean it won't happen...).

The Spanish government has declared that it will not cease the region's intervention if they elect a president who is currently in jail, and ERC doesn't seem totally on board with the idea (though they're trying to keep the negotiations under wraps, so it's hard to say for sure).

One also has to question the suitability of the candidate. Though he's a professor of political science, he has no previous experience in government and hasn't been a member of any of the major parties in Catalan politics until his inclusion in Junts per Catalunya's list for the most recent regional elections (as an independent, and, in my opinion, mainly for the shock value of his imprisonment and the strong social rejection of said imprisonment by most Catalans).

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12 hours ago, Mentat said:

Spanish press is still rather sceptical about it this (which doesn't mean it won't happen...).

The Spanish government has declared that it will not cease the region's intervention if they elect a president who is currently in jail, and ERC doesn't seem totally on board with the idea (though they're trying to keep the negotiations under wraps, so it's hard to say for sure).

One also has to question the suitability of the candidate. Though he's a professor of political science, he has no previous experience in government and hasn't been a member of any of the major parties in Catalan politics until his inclusion in Junts per Catalunya's list for the most recent regional elections (as an independent, and, in my opinion, mainly for the shock value of his imprisonment and the strong social rejection of said imprisonment by most Catalans).

Of course it's for the shock value, but the Government of Spain should not prevent it to happen, nor say that they will not cease the interention if he's elected.

If the justice system is really independent from the executive power, then that candidate should be elected if that is the will of the Catalan Parliament. Then, if, some months from now, they bar him for other reasons it will be another situation. But if the Government refuses to cease the 155 or tries to persuade the CC again so as that Jordi is not elected, it will only mean that the two systems are not independent at all.

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9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Of course it's for the shock value, but the Government of Spain should not prevent it to happen, nor say that they will not cease the interention if he's elected.

If the justice system is really independent from the executive power, then that candidate should be elected if that is the will of the Catalan Parliament. Then, if, some months from now, they bar him for other reasons it will be another situation. But if the Government refuses to cease the 155 or tries to persuade the CC again so as that Jordi is not elected, it will only mean that the two systems are not independent at all.

The Government of Spain is in full interventionist mode, and is currently trying to force a 'return to normalcy' by whatever means possible. As I said in a previous post, it's ignoring issues of legality when it has to, which is troubling (but something both sides in this conflict seem to resort to when they consider it serves their best interest). Whether it's what they should be doing or not is a matter of opinion (there are quite a few Spaniards who consider the government has been excessively lenient and thus ineffectual), but the government itself seems pretty convinced. I personally agree with the goal, though not with the means (especially because some of the people who are in prison are held preventively on extremely flimsy grounds).

The lack of independence of the Spanish justice system is a recurrent sound bite of people who favour independence, and not one I agree with. Members of the Constitutional Court (which judges exclusively laws and legal dispositions, but never people, and is not strictly a part of the justice system) are elected by 2/3 of the Parliament, but once elected its members can't be removed, and it has a long history of finding against the government in important cases. The Catalan secessionist challenge may be legitimate from a democratic point of view, but it's most certainly contrary to the constitution. It's ridiculous to expect the court would find any other way than what it has. The imprisonment of certain Catalan politicians and activist on extremely flimsy grounds is something I don't agree with from a legal or moral standpoint, but I disagree that it was instigated by the government (often it has happened at times that were extremely inconvenient from a political point of view, and has just added fuel to the fire and been in detriment of the governments efforts to return to a normal political scenario). Judges are generally conservative, and always very defensive of the law and constitution, and quite a lot of Spaniards are very weary of and opposed to the Catalan secessionist movement. It's no surprise to me that they have been extremely harsh. Undue influence by the government and collusion is an allegation that needs some kind of proof. Pretending that a decision (or number of decisions) by a judge that we don't agree with proves that the justice system isn't independent is flawed logic.

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16 hours ago, Mentat said:

The Government of Spain is in full interventionist mode, and is currently trying to force a 'return to normalcy' by whatever means possible. As I said in a previous post, it's ignoring issues of legality when it has to, which is troubling (but something both sides in this conflict seem to resort to when they consider it serves their best interest). Whether it's what they should be doing or not is a matter of opinion (there are quite a few Spaniards who consider the government has been excessively lenient and thus ineffectual), but the government itself seems pretty convinced. I personally agree with the goal, though not with the means (especially because some of the people who are in prison are held preventively on extremely flimsy grounds).

The lack of independence of the Spanish justice system is a recurrent sound bite of people who favour independence, and not one I agree with. Members of the Constitutional Court (which judges exclusively laws and legal dispositions, but never people, and is not strictly a part of the justice system) are elected by 2/3 of the Parliament, but once elected its members can't be removed, and it has a long history of finding against the government in important cases. The Catalan secessionist challenge may be legitimate from a democratic point of view, but it's most certainly contrary to the constitution. It's ridiculous to expect the court would find any other way than what it has. The imprisonment of certain Catalan politicians and activist on extremely flimsy grounds is something I don't agree with from a legal or moral standpoint, but I disagree that it was instigated by the government (often it has happened at times that were extremely inconvenient from a political point of view, and has just added fuel to the fire and been in detriment of the governments efforts to return to a normal political scenario). Judges are generally conservative, and always very defensive of the law and constitution, and quite a lot of Spaniards are very weary of and opposed to the Catalan secessionist movement. It's no surprise to me that they have been extremely harsh. Undue influence by the government and collusion is an allegation that needs some kind of proof. Pretending that a decision (or number of decisions) by a judge that we don't agree with proves that the justice system isn't independent is flawed logic.

Completely agree with the bolded.

 

When I was talking about the separation of powers I was basically referring to what the Government could tell the CC to do. In fact, I firmly believe that there is a separation in the sense that it's logical that conservative judges who naturally want to defend the unity of Spain don't favour the indepdentists.

The lack of coherence on the preventive jail is a bit suspicious, though, although it could be related to the same, they want the unity to prevail amongst anything else, and I completely disagree with those measures. Being elected by 2/3 of the parliament means being elcted by PP/PSOE, which, of course, don't want Catalonia to split from Spain...

So I was more thinking about the weird experience of the preventative measures of that Saturday from a month ago that came suddenly before Puigdemont could arrive at the Parliament even if he arrived without any policeman finding him. That he should arrive here if a judge let him do it. They spent lots of hours deciding what to say, and at first it looked like they'd say nothing, but finally, they changed their opinion.

They wrote those measures before accepting the proposal of the Spanish Government of "do something about that, CC", basically pushing them into saying something before the proposal was even accepted, and that was really, really weird. They basically feared that he could arrive and be elected without them capturing him.

For the same reason, not letting Jordi Sánchez be elected would be extraordinary. I suppose that the excuse will be that people wourld riot or whatever...

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7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Completely agree with the bolded.

 

When I was talking about the separation of powers I was basically referring to what the Government could tell the CC to do. In fact, I firmly believe that there is a separation in the sense that it's logical that conservative judges who naturally want to defend the unity of Spain don't favour the indepdentists.

The lack of coherence on the preventive jail is a bit suspicious, though, although it could be related to the same, they want the unity to prevail amongst anything else, and I completely disagree with those measures. Being elected by 2/3 of the parliament means being elcted by PP/PSOE, which, of course, don't want Catalonia to split from Spain...

So I was more thinking about the weird experience of the preventative measures of that Saturday from a month ago that came suddenly before Puigdemont could arrive at the Parliament even if he arrived without any policeman finding him. That he should arrive here if a judge let him do it. They spent lots of hours deciding what to say, and at first it looked like they'd say nothing, but finally, they changed their opinion.

They wrote those measures before accepting the proposal of the Spanish Government of "do something about that, CC", basically pushing them into saying something before the proposal was even accepted, and that was really, really weird. They basically feared that he could arrive and be elected without them capturing him.

For the same reason, not letting Jordi Sánchez be elected would be extraordinary. I suppose that the excuse will be that people wourld riot or whatever...

The Government can request the Constitutional Court judge if a law or legal disposition adheres to the Constitution or not, and to suspend the application of said law if they think their case has merit (so can the Catalan Parliament, mind you, and it has in many occasions when it considered the Spanish government over-limited its attributions). The PP government recently modified the law to allow the Constitutional Court to fine those who don't abide by its rulings. The members of the Court themselves weren't too happy about this (and apply it sparingly).

I agree that, recently, the Constitutional Court (after criticising the government in several occasions for not being able to find a political solution to this crisis) has 'taken upon itself' to play a political role in the Catalan secession challenge. Many of its recent rulings show this. This is something that can be criticized (both the Court deciding to do this and the government abdicating its responsibilities so that the Court was put in this position), though I feel they weren't given much of a choice. Most all Spanish institutions, amongst them the King, consider the secession challenge a crisis of the State, and think something must be done about it. I think in this case the Constitutional Court felt this duty should fall to the Government and it should be resolved through political means, but the Government proved unwilling or unable (or both...) to do it, and the hot potato fell on the Court's lap. Though their interests might be basically aligned, though, the agency of the Constitutional Court is not identical to that of the government (it might care for the unity of Spain, but it doesn't care how well the PP will fare in the next election, for instance).

The Constitutional Court never rules over criminal cases and can't put people in prison (preventive or otherwise). All this is done by the Criminal Courts (the members of which are not chosen by the government or parliament). I personally disagree with a lot of their rulings, but again, I think accusations of collusion must be substantiated in order to be taken seriously.

I feel right now, the goal of the government is a return to normalcy, and the goal of the pro-secession parties is to avoid this (as it would be seen as 'giving up'). That's why, despite there being many other available candidates, they refuse to nominate someone who isn't in exile or prison. They say they're tired of Spanish intervention, but they refuse to take what would be a relatively easy way out. This means there's no end in sight to the conflict.

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5 hours ago, Mentat said:

I agree that, recently, the Constitutional Court (after criticising the government in several occasions for not being able to find a political solution to this crisis) has 'taken upon itself' to play a political role in the Catalan secession challenge. Many of its recent rulings show this. This is something that can be criticized (both the Court deciding to do this and the government abdicating its responsibilities so that the Court was put in this position), though I feel they weren't given much of a choice.

 

 

They have the choice of act neutrally on their own terms.

Quote

 Most all Spanish institutions, amongst them the King, consider the secession challenge a crisis of the State, and think something must be done about it. I think in this case the Constitutional Court felt this duty should fall to the Government and it should be resolved through political means, but the Government proved unwilling or unable (or both...) to do it, and the hot potato fell on the Court's lap.
 

Of course it is a state crisis, and these ambiguous resolutions that arrive before they should, just when the Government asks and demands them are not helping.

Quote

Though their interests might be basically aligned, though, the agency of the Constitutional Court is not identical to that of the government (it might care for the unity of Spain, but it doesn't care how well the PP will fare in the next election, for instance).

By doing what they did on that Saturday, it doesn't help at all to thinking they are not really pushed by the Government instead of alleged neutrality.

Quote

The Constitutional Court never rules over criminal cases and can't put people in prison (preventive or otherwise). All this is done by the Criminal Courts (the members of which are not chosen by the government or parliament). I personally disagree with a lot of their rulings, but again, I think accusations of collusion must be substantiated in order to be taken seriously.

I feel right now, the goal of the government is a return to normalcy, and the goal of the pro-secession parties is to avoid this (as it would be seen as 'giving up'). That's why, despite there being many other available candidates, they refuse to nominate someone who isn't in exile or prison. They say they're tired of Spanish intervention, but they refuse to take what would be a relatively easy way out. This means there's no end in sight to the conflict.

Yes, I agree with the bolded.

Unfortunately nothing like these will happen. The thing is just escalating more and more.

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looks like Jordi Sánchez could not be President for other reasons ...

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180303/441224268120/cup-abstencion-jordi-sanchez.html

CUP has decided not to vote in favour of this Government because it is not as much Republican/unilateral as they'd prefer. So that leaves 64 MP's for the independentists and 65 for the unionists.

So the only plausible solution would be that Puigdemont and Comín, exiled in Belgium, rennounce to their seats, and that would mean that the indepdentists would have 66 MP's and they could elect a President. The other option is that the Comuns don't vote for anyone, which is unlikely but not impossible.

If none of these options happens, there will probably be new elections...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yesterday Jordi Turull from JuntsxCat was about to be elected President of Catalonia in the Catalan Parliament but he didn't have enough votes, he needed two votes more. (CUP opted for abstention). Jordi Sánchez was denied freedom this week and that's why Jordi Turull was the alternative now that Puigdemont and Sánchez could not be elected.

Today several MP's (including Turull) were called to court in Madrid, some of them had already been in prison this Fall but now were free with preventative measures.  The judge has said that there is risk of them repeating the same crimes and also risk of them escaping and that  due to that, they would be entering prison today (5 of them). One of these persons, Marta Rovira, General secretary of the Republican Left Party of Catalonia didn't go to court today and it is said that she has gone to Switzerland.

Meanwhile, the European Arrest Warrant has been reactivated for Puigdemont and the other MPs,  and there is an international one for Marta Rovira.

The biggest crime for 13 of these persons is "rebellion", although in some other cases is "disobedience".

The President of the Parliament of Catalonia had proposed yesterday to continue the debate tomorrow morning, so as that Turull could possibly be elected finally (if CUP was convinced) and there will be something tomorrow, but the content of it is not known.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/23/jordi-turull-latest-candidate-catalan-presidency-appear-court-spain

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On 23-3-2018 at 10:53 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yesterday Jordi Turull from JuntsxCat was about to be elected President of Catalonia in the Catalan Parliament but he didn't have enough votes, he needed two votes more. (CUP opted for abstention). Jordi Sánchez was denied freedom this week and that's why Jordi Turull was the alternative now that Puigdemont and Sánchez could not be elected.

Today several MP's (including Turull) were called to court in Madrid, some of them had already been in prison this Fall but now were free with preventative measures.  The judge has said that there is risk of them repeating the same crimes and also risk of them escaping and that  due to that, they would be entering prison today (5 of them). One of these persons, Marta Rovira, General secretary of the Republican Left Party of Catalonia didn't go to court today and it is said that she has gone to Switzerland.

Meanwhile, the European Arrest Warrant has been reactivated for Puigdemont and the other MPs,  and there is an international one for Marta Rovira.

The biggest crime for 13 of these persons is "rebellion", although in some other cases is "disobedience".

The President of the Parliament of Catalonia had proposed yesterday to continue the debate tomorrow morning, so as that Turull could possibly be elected finally (if CUP was convinced) and there will be something tomorrow, but the content of it is not known.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/23/jordi-turull-latest-candidate-catalan-presidency-appear-court-spain

Spain is going crazy again. 

I keep reading how several European DA's are getting arrest warrants, like Finland (for Puigdemont) and Scotland (for Ponsati who is an university professor at St Andrews). 

And the EU is still staying silent, but then the EU Commission is apparently a place where nepotism rules :dunno:

I don't understand why the EU isn't taking the offer of Juncker: When Selmayr goes, I go! Best thing that would happen inside the EU for years. 

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