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House Frey should be respected


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I'm sorry this just dawned on me...wouldn't it have been wiser to have arranged a marriage between Rickon and a Frey girl intstead of one between Arya and Elmar?

I mean Robb for all Lord Frey knows is likely going to lose this war and may be asked to resign to the watch as punishment or die in the battles. But if Rickon has an arranged marriage with the Freys they still get the north. 

With Arya they don't have any certainties Robb can even provide her. 

 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They agreed for Robb's hand to have governorship of the north. Not Edmure.

Would love to see where that's established. Walder would be dead and his grandson would be a Stark. They gain nothing out of the Stark governance. It's a marriage alliance. Granted Edmure is not an alliance out of region, but they would actually get a lot more out of governance by their own LP. It would also get them the respect from the Tullys they never got while Hoster and Walder were alive.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That part of the agreement remained unfulfilled. Edmure was nice a liege lord they'd hope to snag tears prior true but still  would be noticble downgrade from Robb. So 2 out of 4 they'd get? 2 Freys being fostered and one squired were simply caveats but not worth all they had contributed to Robb's war effort , they were nice but the reason the Freys had joined was the promise of Robb's  hand

Robb would only be an upgrade if they absolutely want an out of region LP marriage. He wasn't king when he crossed, nor did the Freys want him to be king:

“My lord father would urge caution,” aged Ser Stevron said, with the weaselly smile of a Frey. “Wait, let these two kings play their game of thrones. When they are done fighting, we can bend our knees to the victor, or oppose him, as we choose. With Renly arming, likely Lord Tywin would welcome a truce … and the safe return of his son. Noble lords, allow me to go to him at Harrenhal and arrange good terms and ransoms …”

To be charitable I'd say that 2 out of 4 with a huge set of asterisks:

1) Frey still got a marriage to an LP
2) The marriage to Arya, whom no one had seen or heard from since Ned's arrest, to Elmar was always a dicey proposition. They didn't have any leverage yet either as Jaime remained uncaptured until the battle of the camps.

Don't get me wrong, Walder definitely had reason to break an alliance with Robb, with little and less reason to take him back. Anyone who thinks the Red Wedding was the best option is just kidding themselves. It flies in the face of how Tywin has handled prisoner swaps (with no Frey leverage), the stain they knew they'd get on their reputation, and Tywin's past history. Tyrion says it himself: 

“Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he’s suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.”

“I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark’s arms and won you another year of war.”

And GRRM uses peevish there for a reason:

“I have no doubt that Lord Walder chose his envoys with care,” she replied. “It was a peevish thing to do, a petty sort of revenge, but remember who we are dealing with. The Late Lord Frey, Father used to call him. The man is ill-tempered, envious, and above all prideful.”

“Small good that will do him. Walder Frey is a peevish man, not a stupid one"

Walder cooked up this idea to fulfill his peevishness and his desire for more power/respect. He grossly overestimated how much he'd overstretch himself and how big of a target he'd make his house, but at least I can get that. That Tywin didn't suggest it pretty much tells you all you need to know.

 

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm sorry this just dawned on me...wouldn't it have been wiser to have arranged a marriage between Rickon and a Frey girl intstead of one between Arya and Elmar?

I mean Robb for all Lord Frey knows is likely going to lose this war and may be asked to resign to the watch as punishment or die in the battles. But if Rickon has an arranged marriage with the Freys they still get the north. 

With Arya they don't have any certainties Robb can even provide her. 

 

Robb rebelled against his king.  Should they lose, they lose the north.  Any promises, decrees, decisions made by Robb would count for nothing.  Everything depended on winning the war.  Losing meant the Starks lose everything.  When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  Robb lost.  

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4 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Robb rebelled against his king.  Should they lose, they lose the north.  Any promises, decrees, decisions made by Robb would count for nothing.  Everything depended on winning the war.  Losing meant the Starks lose everything.  When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  Robb lost.  

 

Most wars end in terms being established between two sides, fighting to unconditional surrender is not the norm. The Tyrells rebelled against their king, now they're married to his brother. 

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7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

:agree: Egads, old Walder could have said I dunna want to get involved Stark. You need to take the long route. I dunna know but the way the Twins are described if doesn't appear that the northmen are much of a threat to old Walder.

I'm unsure, so maybe you or someone else can help me with this ---- I'm asking ---- Frey is a Tully banner man not a Lannister one.


Feudal politics is messy, the Freys are powerful enough to play loose with the feudal contract and in any case are they not also vassals to the Iron Throne? Robb's most loyal vassal the Greatjon threatens to march his men home if he doesn't get preferential treatment and is only cowed by Robb's iron response, simply put realpolitik is always going to be a factor especially in a feudal setting where individual lords hold so much personal power, Frey saw the opportunity to further the interests of his house and took it as you'd expect many lords to do. The Tullys themselves outright betrayed their overlords for the sake of marriage alliances. :dunno:

Furthermore if he does nothing he might gain the approval of Tywin Lannister but in return gain further enmity with his Tully overlords. 

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7 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No, as usual, you are making a strawman argument.

How so. Explain how it is a strawman argument. 

7 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

What's bizarre is that you constantly quote people on this forum that have made it perfectly clear that they do not wish to discuss anything with you.

You do realize that this is a public forum, you or I for that matter don't get to dictate who responds to anything we say. We can both choose to ignore people who respond to us bit we don't get to dictate what others can and can not do.

7 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Perhaps you feel the only way you can win a debate is against someone who isn't participating in said debate, but it's getting quite tired, and rather sad.

Is there any real need for the constant ad hominem attacks?

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Easy question: They're not. Don't know why I called them the biggest forerunners of the war. They contributed most to Robb's war campaign. 

 

They had a few options-none would fufil their interests as the RW would. It was the bed course for them given the information at the time.

 

They agreed to fight in a war for Robb's hand. They were one the if the house contributed the most men and resources for Robb's war effort. They sacrificed. Robb dishonored that sacrifice. They wanted vengeance

 

Correction: they slaughtered a couple dozen guests at most.

And Robb's armed escort(army). 

They don't have a right true. 

But it appears to be in their interests to do so.

 

Ok, even putting aside moral repulsiveness of mass-slaughter, how is RW in Freys' best interest? In a world with delicate balance of power between feudal lords, how is it in their interest to be hated by their each and every neighbor for a generation or two? How is it in their interest to sink their reputation so low? How is it in their interest to ensure utter destruction of their house should anyone other than Lannisters prevail in the end? And globally speaking, how is it in their (and everyone else's) interest to live in the world where guests and hosts don't trust each other and notion of diplomacy is seriously set back? Whatever short-term gains (and in their case, these will be short indeed) they had are not worth this.

On the last thing - thousands of Robb's soldiers who laid down their weapons and feasted in tents do not fall under definition of guests?

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12 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I mean that it's irrelevant in regards to defending Walder's decision to break guest rights. I agree that it's relevant to the point you made, and as a factor in giving Walder a motive for being offended and wanting revenge.

Why, care to elaborate? Walder decided to commit a treasonous crime in order to further himself - not for Robb's cause as is being claimed - knowing full well that he could be punished if the rebellion wasn't successful. Instead of facing those consequences, he decided (not forced) to commit another heinous act in order to get out of the predicament that he got himself into, and to avoid punishment for a crime he did commit.

Avenging rape of your wife and daughter isn't same as RW.

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54 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

LMFAO.

NOPE.

The Westerossi revere great fighters, heroes, beauty. The Frey's have none of that. That said, there's bound to be a fair few who are worth meeting I mean they can't all be chinless, back stabbing liars.

Well, Hosteen is great fighter.

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20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“My lord father would urge caution,” aged Ser Stevron said, with the weaselly smile of a Frey. “Wait, let these two kings play their game of thrones. When they are done fighting, we can bend our knees to the victor, or oppose him, as we choose. With Renly arming, likely Lord Tywin would welcome a truce … and the safe return of his son. Noble lords, allow me to go to him at Harrenhal and arrange good terms and ransoms …”

Thanks for this. It gives me something to dig into this weekend when it is cold, damp and dreary outside.

One of my nagging questions that maybe you or someone else can shed some light on is when did Roose throw in with Tywin and Frey?

As early as CoK it is revealed that Roose decided to remarry and his choice was a Frey. Cat was unaware of the marriage of Roose and the death of Stevron.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V      Robb's betrothed to one of Lord Walder's daughters, and Roose Bolton wed another, I hear. And haven't you taken two of his grandsons to be fostered at Winterfell?"     "A ward can easily become a hostage, if need be." She had not known that Ser Stevron was dead, nor of Bolton's marriage.

Another thing I'm trying to understand is why Ramsey when he put WF to torch wanted the Walder boys alive considering that they are witnesses to his actions.

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15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Another thing I'm trying to understand is why Ramsey when he put WF to torch wanted the Walder boys alive considering that they are witnesses to his actions.

Because his father was already in cahoots with the IT and commanded him to take Winterfell. It's after the battle of Blackwater Bay-when in Harrenhal Roose finds out and is convinced that he must be leeched in order to "think clearly".

Plus with the Freys as hostages-Roose has leverage over Walder which Catelyn notices at the RW. 

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13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Ok, even putting aside moral repulsiveness of mass-slaughter, how is RW in Freys' best interest? In a world with delicate balance of power between feudal lords, how is it in their interest to be hated by their each and every neighbor for a generation or two?

They are not hated by each and every neighbour. The Lords Vypren and Charlton were on the Freys side, they have won the new Lords of the Darry and Riverrun lands to their side while making allies with the Crown, the Warden of the West and the new Warden of the North. 

Obviously this is a fantasy novel and we have strong reason to suspect, in thanks in no small part to the resurgence of magic in this world, that the the Freys are going to be punished but at the time of the Red Wedding there was plenty of reasons why it would seem like a strong political move (though it should be pointed out that Walder's primary motive was revenge any other motives such as ambition or fear would have been lesser). 

In fact in one move they have removed a House that has hated them since before Robert's Rebellion. 

13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

How is it in their interest to sink their reputation so low?

Lets be clear, their reputation was not that high to begin with. But I daresay, like Jaime Lannister, they'd get on with it. 

13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

How is it in their interest to ensure utter destruction of their house should anyone other than Lannisters prevail in the end?

I'm sorry, but that is not actually true. Why would Dany or (F)Aegon destroy them? Why would even Stannis?

Obviously the Frey's name is mud, but there is little reason why a new none affiliated Stark King would got out of their way to actually wipe out the entire House especially as Walder Frey is likely to be long dead before a new regime is firmly established. 

13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

 

And globally speaking, how is it in their (and everyone else's) interest to live in the world where guests and hosts don't trust each other and notion of diplomacy is seriously set back?

It is not. I don't think any Frey would ever claim that was part of their reasoning. 

13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Whatever short-term gains (and in their case, these will be short indeed) they had are not worth this.

I think most of us would likely agree with you. The Freys were incredibly angry though and angry and pissed people do not make rational decisions. 

Walder Frey is close to death and he knew that letting Robb go home would likely end any chance he would see the man he felt fucked him over die, certainly not in his lifetime and not by his doing. He let his vengenace overcome him. 

13 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

On the last thing - thousands of Robb's soldiers who laid down their weapons and feasted in tents do not fall under definition of guests?

They would not be protected by Guest Rights, though obviously it is still a shitty underhand way of killing them. 

The books are very clear what two things have to be activated for Guest Rights to be upheld; 1) Food and 2) to be under the Host's roof. 

Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof.


Ser Balon is a guest beneath my roof. He has eaten of my bread and salt. I will not do him harm


One notable custom that the Northmen hold dearer than any other is guest right, the tradition of hospitality by which a man may offer no harm to a guest beneath his roof, nor a guest to his host. The Andals held to something like it as well, but it looms less large in southron minds.


Lord Lyman Lannister protected the prince and princess under his roof, extending guest right and refusing all the king's demands to turn them over.


"It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."


"Not you," she said. "I watched. You never ate at his board, nor slept by his fire. He never gave you guest-right, so you're not bound to him. It's for the baby I have to go."

 

This is actually offered to Robb and his guests inside the Twins, much to the relief of Cat

"Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."

But it did not extend to the soldiers who the Freys refused entry to the Twins nor did they offer them any of their food

"And my men?" asked Robb.

"My lord grandfather regrets that he cannot feed nor house so large a host. We have been sore pressed to find fodder and provender for our own levies.

Perhaps Robb should have been suspicious about this, but its also important to remember that Robb was not scared of Walder Frey

"Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof."
Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. But if it pleases Lord Walder to serve me stewed crow smothered in maggots, I'll eat it and ask for a second bowl."
 
So no, the Freys made sure that they did not offer the Guest Right protection to the soldiers outside, which actually makes sense as if Guest Rights is such a sacred concept then accepting the Frey and the 3,500 Northern soldiers (with Roose) were willing to risk the wrath of their gods seems like a huge contradiction. 
 
10 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Does he have any memorable wins (tourney, duel, battle) to substantiate that? I'm honestly drawing blank, and the wiki helps little.

He is rated pretty high by multiple sources

I have been Lord Tywin's captive once," said Ser Hosteen, a husky man with a square face who was said to be the strongest of the Freys. "I have no wish to enjoy Lannister hospitality again."

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"Are you unwell, my lady?" asked Ser Hosteen, a powerful man with a square strong jaw.

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 he knew, but when he'd been younger Merrett had been almost as robust as Ser Hosteen, his eldest full brother, who was commonly regarded as the strongest of Lord Walder Frey's brood. 

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 Hosteen and Aenys. He remembered them from before he knew his name. Hosteen was a bull, slow to anger but implacable once roused, and by repute the fiercest fighter of Lord Walder's get.

And it is not like he is the only renowned Frey warrior as both Black Walder and Walder Rivers are also regarded well

The scorn in his voice made Jaime bristle. "There is a quicker way to decide the matter. A single combat. My champion against yours."
"I was wondering when you would get to that." Ser Brynden laughed. "Who will it be? Strongboar? Addam Marbrand? Black Walder Frey?" He leaned forward. "Why not you and me, ser?"
 
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 Forty soldiers rode in his escort, commanded by Walder Rivers, the eldest of Lord Walder's bastard brood, a stern, grey-haired man with a formidable reputation as a warrior.

The Freys are a rich and powerful House, they would have the riches and resources to give their members the best training and given the huge amount of land they rule as well as the close proximity they are to multiple borders they are likely a martial House.  It really should surprise no one that a few of the many Frey members would be excellent warriors, after all every victory Robb had included more Frey men in his host than any other of his vassal. 

Historically the Freys seem to have long been a House that has a decent reputation for battle

There were many such supporters in the riverlands, who rose in their thousands and joined the prince's host in Rhaenyra's name. Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand. The Freys were not an old house. 

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"Just do your part as promised, and let me concern myself with that. Once we have Butterwell's gold and the swords of House Frey, Harrenhal will follow, then the Brackens. Otho knows he cannot hope to stand…"

 

 

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