House Frey should be respected

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Which, too, is BS. They had all alternatives in the world.

They really didn't. There was fighting Robb in battle (which they'd surely still be at a disadvantage having given so much in Robb's war campaign), and most likely lose, try buckling down and play neutral again (which neither side is going to accept now, and have to face the north and south), and get nothing for all they've put into Robb's war. And there was accepting Robb's offer in good faith and sacrifice more and more for the guy whose already betrayed them and made them look like fools as well as put their situation with the crown in more jeopardy if they had played neutral) And finally there was the red wedding which satisfied there desire for vengeance, secured their current status, and got them something for all the sacrifices they've made for this war with no loss on them.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

I still haven't read one good reason for respecting them. The best the pro-Frey-camp has come up with is that the Starks are just as bad (probably worse) and it isn't convincing. Throwing shade doesn't change the topic at hand.

Old Walder was written repulsive right from childhood, if thats your thing its fine, but don't try to make that old creep and his ugly, lying brood out to be something actually worth respecting.

You're better off respecting none of these highborn pricks who again are only pushing this ego that's costing thousands of civilians their lives and homes because they need a ego boost, or revenge. Walder Frey is more repulsive but none of these people are especially good by comparison. But Robb should have showed the Freys respect and married one of them as per their agreement.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/23/2017 at 7:06 PM, Bernie Mac said:

At the start of the war, in AGOT, Robb was more than willing to destroy the Twins, and its occupants, who had not wrong him at all. Is this something that you would honour?

They were essentially condemning his grandfather and uncle to death or imprisonment for no other reason than Tywin Lannister's vanity. I'd say that, at the very least, merits a serious discussion. Robb was being very petulant though.

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At that point Walder had not wronged Robb. Robb wanted Walder dead before he wronged him, all because the Crossing was the most convenient route for him. 

Yeah no Robb wanted to save his family which Walder was happy to deny him. He had very much wronged him. As to being the most convenient route, it was basically the only one that would work in time to save his family. How do we know this? Well Robb and Walder both say it. Theon too I guess:

“Theon shook his head. “The river’s running high and fast. Ser Brynden says it can’t be forded, not this far north.”
“I must have that crossing!” Robb declared, fuming. “Oh, our horses might be able to swim the river, I suppose, but not with armored men on their backs. We’d need to build rafts to pole our steel across, helms and mail and lances, and we don’t have the trees for that. Or the time. Lord Tywin is marching north …” He balled his hand into a fist.”

“They’ll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here,” the old man shot back. “Don’t you try and frighten me, my lady.”

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eh? By allowing Robb access they'd be rebelling against the Crown. That bridge was not the only route, it was just the more convenient route. 

Which he clearly doesn't mind as long as he gets something out of it. It was the only route, except through Tywin's army and  RR would have surrendered long before Robb got there, if he did. 

“Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey’s the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. If I had the sense the gods gave a fish, I’d help the Lannisters boil you all.”

“He cackled. “If Lord Tywin wants my help, he can bloody well ask for it.”

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And it should be noted that Robb's side were already being antagonistic by shooting down ravens coming and going from the Twins. 

And the Freys have no reason to know that. Shooting down ravens is hardly a actual cassus belli.

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And as for being unprepared, that was Robb's speciality in attack. The Lannister army at Riverrun were mostly sleeping when he attacked, the same with the untrained green boys at Oxcross. Robb built his military career on attacking armies unprepared. Can't go crying foul when someone finally does it to him. 

Robb was attacking armies and soldiers in open warfare. Notice how he didn't invite Stafford and his men in for a nice potluck dinner and murder them. He didn't host a meeting of the neighborhood HOA and then murder Jaime's men. Nor did he have a game night with Forley Prester and Andros Brax to murder them. 

But you don't have to take my word for it. There's a reason why Tywin and Tyrion spoke of it being on Frey:

“So much for guest right.”
“The blood is on Walder Frey’s hands, not mine.”
“Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he’s suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.”

On 12/23/2017 at 2:45 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Only the people inside the Twins had their guest rights betrayed, the army outside was not protected. 

The Freys literally put a roof over there head and provided wine and ale for them:

“My lord grandfather regrets that he cannot feed nor house so large a host. We have been sore pressed to find fodder and provender for our own levies. Nonetheless, your men shall not be neglected. If they will cross and set up their camp beside our own, we will bring out enough casks of wine and ale for all to drink the health of Lord Edmure and his bride. We have thrown up three great feast tents on the far bank, to provide them with some shelter from the rains.”

He is giving them sustenance and shelter from external forces. Even if you don't think it's guest right with all the boxes checked, it was made to appear as though guest right were in play. And frankly it's ridiculous to say guest right wasn't in play. If you're willing to murder dozens of notable, highborn people who are ostensibly allies, then who cares about 3500 or so yeoman farmers and tradeworkers who made up the rank and file of Robb's army.

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You're better off respecting none of these highborn pricks who again are only pushing this ego that's costing thousands of civilians their lives and homes because they need a ego boost, or revenge. Walder Frey is more repulsive but none of these people are especially good by comparison. But Robb should have showed the Freys respect and married one of them as per their agreement.

I agree, Robb was stupid to break contract and he was stupid too when he visited the wedding. 

However, I find that people of other Houses have virtues worth respecting. Not the Frey's though...

[Blackwater Revenant]

On 2017-12-23 at 8:58 PM, divica said:

They may be villains, but what were they supposed to do at the time of the red wedding?

Robb lost the war. <snip>

The war was not lost, Walder pulling his men, and slaughtering Rob and his army at a wedding is when the war was lost.

[divica]

18 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

The war was not lost, Walder pulling his men, and slaughtering Rob and his army at a wedding is when the war was lost.

For the riverlands the war was lost because robb was going north.

[ravenous reader]

Walder Frey should be respected for the same reason one ought to respect someone like Littlefinger:  one doesn't mess with impunity with someone who has no boundaries.  Robb thought he could give free reign to his heart and still be afforded the luxury of picking up the pieces of his broken kingdom; however, Walder Frey -- or should we say 'free' -- was freer yet.

[Adam Yozza]

32 minutes ago, divica said:

For the riverlands the war was lost because robb was going north.

Not really or at least they didn't seem to think so. They still had an army, the Lannisters had been pushed out and Robb was planning on returning with reinforcements. They seemed to think they still had a chance. If they felt abandoned we would have heard of Riverlords abandoning his cause and bending the knee.

[divica]

20 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Not really or at least they didn't seem to think so. They still had an army, the Lannisters had been pushed out and Robb was planning on returning with reinforcements. They seemed to think they still had a chance. If they felt abandoned we would have heard of Riverlords abandoning his cause and bending the knee.

We know what happened in AFfC. The lannisters basically dealt with the riverlands as they wished. Even in ASoS the riverlands army was meh... I think their job was to hold until robb came back and they knew that at that time they didn t have really anything to offer to tywin... so if they surrender they would suffer.

[Blackwater Revenant]

On 2017-12-23 at 9:27 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robb Stark was more than happy to sighn on people who were known to have done and will far worse so long as it was convient for him-he wouldn't lose sleep over any of the heinous acts committed by the BC so long they benefited his pursuit of northern independence. But *gasp* the Freys killing guests (none of which are civilians who often get caught up in the crossfire but don't really get attention), was the worst thing anyone had done in the war. The little people who where butchered tortured and rape by those under Robb they get no attention, the nobles in the north care no more for them than the nobles in the south,   Yeah, people paint a rosier picture of the war. People like the Starks  so they pretend as though the north acted complete paragons when really the people waging it on the north's  really don't act much better than those in those in south concerning it. They dislike Walder's annoying ass so it's easy to say he acted the worst when he really did nothing more immoral-just less proper.

I mean the reason why groups such as the tbwb and the faith militant became so popular among the dissanfrancised is because they actually called the highborn nobles who were pushing this damn war on their shit and actually tried protecting the smallfolk. Really the smallfolk get  get basically no attention when discussing the war, it's all about how the highborn assholes acted to each other what dicks they were to each other or how awesome x person was on their side. It's disgusting. I can't help but think of little Mycah when talking about this. Two highborn children got into an argument that resulted in the deaths of 12 year old peasant boy, and one of the Stark's pets. Yet when discussing the incident people express how sad it was for the pet to die. Literally the life of a peasant boy is worthless compared to a favored dog of a noble family. 

Seriously, this is why I roll my eyes whenever people in story or the readers remark how much a travesty the Rw was and that the gods surely are going to punish the perpetrators of it. When. Out of the list of atrocities committed during the war on either side this doesn't rank on the top ten And the gods won't exact justice men will try because the gods if they exist have shown they don't care. 

Yet again, another strawman argument attempting to deflect away from the actions of the Freys. What do the atrocities of war have to do with the decision the Freys made in murdering their own allies, and breaking one of the most sacred customs in the Seven Kingdoms? I have not seen anyone, nor have I myself, made an argument defending or downplaying the horrors and injustice that occur as result of the high Lords playing their game of thrones.

The plain and simple facts are, that in the world that GRRM has built, what the Freys have done is considered to be far more of a reprehensible crime against men and gods than the incidents that you bring up. You don't have to like it, or agree that it should be that way, but that is the way it is, and that's a fact, not an opinion.

[300 H&H Magnum]

Robb broke his oaths to Walder.  Robb owed Walder for the previous service that the Freys have given for Robb's war campaign.  The wedding of Edmure and Roslyn should be considered payment for that.  The new deal has not been paid for by either side.  Robb broke his oath to Walder so Walder felt like he doesn't have to honor any promises he makes to the Starks. 

Question.  Assuming the Wot5ks was concluded and peace was reached on both sides with no punitive penalties.  Unrealistic, I know, but for the sake of the question assume that it is so.  Robb promised Edmure, Arya, and other considerations to the Freys and Walder chose to remain loyal in anticipation of those payments.

1. Would the Starks honor their promise and force Arya to marry Elmar?
2. Would Robb still force Edmure to marry Roslyn, per their agreement?

My own thoughts on the matter is the Starks will refuse to force Arya to marry Elmar even if they promised to do it.  I know, I am prejudiced against the Starks because I don't like Sansa and Jon.  But that is how I read Robb.  Robb doesn't take his oaths seriously enough.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Robb broke his oaths to Walder.  Robb owed Walder for the previous service that the Freys have given for Robb's war campaign.  The wedding of Edmure and Roslyn should be considered payment for that.  The new deal has not been paid for by either side.  Robb broke his oath to Walder so Walder felt like he doesn't have to honor any promises he makes to the Starks. 

Question.  Assuming the Wot5ks was concluded and peace was reached on both sides with no punitive penalties.  Unrealistic, I know, but for the sake of the question assume that it is so.  Robb promised Edmure, Arya, and other considerations to the Freys and Walder chose to remain loyal in anticipation of those payments.

1. Would the Starks honor their promise and force Arya to marry Elmar?
2. Would Robb still force Edmure to marry Roslyn, per their agreement?

My own thoughts on the matter is the Starks will refuse to force Arya to marry Elmar even if they promised to do it.  I know, I am prejudiced against the Starks because I don't like Sansa and Jon.  But that is how I read Robb.  Robb doesn't take his oaths seriously enough.

That would be an interesting thread. How serious do robb, ned and jon take their vows. And I think robb seems to be the one that cares less about vows.

[Nowy Tends]

51 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

The plain and simple facts are, that in the world that GRRM has built, what the Freys have done is considered to be far more of a reprehensible crime against men and gods than the incidents that you bring up. You don't have to like it, or agree that it should be that way, but that is the way it is, and that's a fact, not an opinion.

This.

What's next? A “Ramsay must be forgiven because he had such a difficult childhood” thread?

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This.

What's next? A “Ramsay must be forgiven because he had such a difficult childhood” thread?

For me the great question about the RW will always be how much of a choice the freys really had if tywin demanded it.

[300 H&H Magnum]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

That would be an interesting thread. How serious do robb, ned and jon take their vows. And I think robb seems to be the one that cares less about vows.

Were I to rank those men in terms of honoring vows:

1. Ned
2. Robb
3. Jon

I see Jon as the worst offender because he knowingly and purposefully broke his vows to help Arya.  Robb was impulsive and somewhat stupid about Jeyne Westerling.  Oathbreakers the both of them but I see Jon as the worst offender.

We know little of Ned's history so I will refrain from judging him.  He appears the honorable type.  As far as we know that is.  I am not prepared to condemn him.

[300 H&H Magnum]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

For me the great question about the RW will always be how much of a choice the freys really had if tywin demanded it.

Tywin is not the forgive and forget without punishment person.  I'm not sure any other person in his position could be more generous though.  Joffrey and Tywin needed to get rid of the Starks.  Walder needed to protect his family from getting the same thing the Reynes got.  We don't know what Roose wanted out of it but he is the one who was plotting against the Starks from day one. 

Here's what we do know.  The Freys were sincere when they made their bargain with the Starks.  They carried out all of what they agreed to do right up to the time when Robb shitted on them.  Robb only apologized and made like he was humbled because he still needed their help to have any chance against his enemies.  Tywin made a better offer that guaranteed safety for the Freys but it required Walder to prove his loyalty before he can be forgiven.  That unfortunately required the violation of guest rights. 

I suppose you can say that Walder Frey could have chosen to fight Robb in open battle rather than the use of trickery.  I would advised against it.  If Tywin had trouble with Robb on the battle front what chance did the Freys have?  So if Tywin ordered the Freys to kill the Starks the only way to do it is through the use of deception. 

[Nowy Tends]

28 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

  Robb doesn't take his oaths seriously enough.

Robb has stupidly fallen into a trap set by Tywin. What other oath did he betray?

[300 H&H Magnum]

9 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Robb has stupidly fallen into a trap set by Tywin. What other oath did he betray?

Trap it may be.  We don't know.  But Robb still had a choice.  He could have kept his dick in check and kept to his promise.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Yet again, another strawman argument attempting to deflect away from the actions of the Freys. What do the atrocities of war have to do with the desicon the Freys made in murdering their own allies, and breaking one of the most sacred customs in the Seven Kingdoms? I have not seen anyone, nor have I myself, made an argument defending or downplaying the horrors and injustice that occur as result of the high Lords playing their game of thrones.

 

Yeah, no one actually brings up the various heinous crimes all parties committed in the war. Especially the North. They pretend the RW was the worst and most despicable thing to have happened in the war done anyone. That the Freys are so much worse having done it. A lot of them are people. And the RW is a bad thing. But when compared to what other Northmen the Freys aren't the definitive bad guy. They deserve no more respect or that much less respect for their conduct during the war than any major house, zero. 

 

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

The plain and simple facts are, that in the world that GRRM has built, what the Freys have done is considered to be far more of a reprehensible crime against men and gods than the incidents that you bring up. You don't have to like it, or agree that it should be that way, but that is the way it is, and that's a fact, not an opinion.

So? Having Homosexual relations in this society would be considered worse than murderering a man who deflowered your sister and refused to marry her, or starting a war for ego, that doesn't mean I place the gay guy lower than the actual murderers. Nor point out the ridiculousness of the readers who actually do. 

And if the gods exist, have shown  they don't care. They didn't deliver divine retribution on a man who burned and pillaged  their monasteries and raped and ate silent sisters, they won't really much lift a finger to revenge the RW. Men will. Well they'll try at lest. Because only man can deliver  truly deliver justice.

[Varysblackfyre321]

39 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

This.

What's next? A “Ramsay must be forgiven because he had such a difficult childhood” thread?

What's next?  A Loras is almost as morally reprehensible or worse than Tywin  being he's gay because this society places his kind below or just about the level of actual murderers and rapists?