Different betrothals, Different outcomes.

[The Sunland Lord]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He was quite clear on what would be discussed.

I'll know my place then. 

[Angel Eyes]

I would be interested to see how a Rhaegar/Catelyn marriage would have turned out.

[theMADdestScientist_]

On 24/12/2017 at 6:56 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Oberyn and Catelyn is a no-no. Considering how well Catelyn reacts with one bastard, I don’t think she’ll stomach having several more in the same house. And Oberyn’s been siring bastards since he was 12.

Actually, Oberyn was supposed to marry, but his mother couldn't find a suitable match for him, so in the end he chose his own path. If a young Oberyn is betrothed to Catelyn, i imagine he would treat her like Ellaria, though i don't believe this match would work at all, they're too different.

On 24/12/2017 at 9:26 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s interesting to consider if Jaime would have continued his affair with Cersei had he been married as well.

Indeed, indeed. Now that's a good question, and since Jaime still has both his hands in this scenario, it means he still has that arrogance that defined him.

On 24/12/2017 at 9:41 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Elia seems like she had a kind soul, so I think she would have gotten along well with Ned. Like you said though, I doubt she would have liked Winterfell.

I doubt Winterfell would have liked her, the north is way to harsh for a woman like her. It would be interesting to see how Ned deals with Elia and her health, especially with the cold north making it all the more worse. Chances are high that she might die trying to give birth in the north.

On 25/12/2017 at 1:01 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Rhaegar would be the only man Cersei would be faithful too.

The first time i read that Tywin tried to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar, i laughed out loud, what a terrible match that would be i thought. Rhaegar dodged a bullet there no? i used to think so, but after thinking more about it, i realised i missed the "small details". Cersei is just a year older than Lyanna herself, she was just a child when Tywin tried to arrange her betrothal to Rhaegar, which makes me think that Rhaegar would have had time enough to realise what Cersei could become in the future, and with this in mind, he would have a fair shot in change her into a faithful and loyal bride. Would it work? no idea, but since Cersei wanted this marriage so much, i like to think that Rhaegar could turn her into a loyal wife. Hell, he made the wild Lyanna Stark fall in love with him, he has some serious skills.

On 25/12/2017 at 1:05 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Also if your going to mentioned how Robert hit Cersei in his description you should mention how Oberyn hit Obara's mother and stole her child. Oberyn has a dark side. 

I know, that's why i said you can consider Oberyn an honorable man, but not like Ned Stark by no means.

On 25/12/2017 at 2:19 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

You forgot to include the most important male on your list:  Prince Viserys

He's too young to marry any of the girls in this list.

On 25/12/2017 at 1:42 AM, Curled Finger said:

Lysa and Ned in hopes of Ned curbing her madness

Actually, Lysa was a very decent girl before she was married to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather, so i don't see Ned having to take care of her madness, because i don't see Lysa getting mad if she marries Ned.

On 25/12/2017 at 1:42 AM, Curled Finger said:

We don't know enough about Elia to appropriately marry her off. 

Actually, we do know a lot about her. When presented to Baelor Hightower, she almost fell in love with him, and she saw his face mainly, not the man(boy?), she barely knew him. This proves that she was a very simple person, capable of falling in love very quickly like any other girl. She was decribed as gentle, kind and clever, with a good heart, she was a typical princess. I know the show is not realiable, but Oberyn did mention that Elia loved her "Rockstar husband" twice, in his first appearance, and later in the History and Lore of Westeros that comes with the Blu-Ray. And i believe him, it makes Elia's story much more tragic than it already is, it looks like something GRRM would write.

I tought Rhaegar and Elia were a fine couple, but it seems the circumstances around them made their marriage impossible to work, especially because everything happened very quickly for them after they married. It seems that there was no time for them, and soon after Rhaegar met Lyanna, it was over.

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Actually, Lysa was a very decent girl before she was married to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather, so i don't see Ned having to take care of her madness, because i don't see Lysa getting mad if she marries Ned.

Actually, we do know a lot about her. When presented to Baelor Hightower, she almost fell in love with him, and she saw his face mainly, not the man(boy?), she barely knew him. This proves that she was a very simple person, capable of falling in love very quickly like any other girl. She was decribed as gentle, kind and clever, with a good heart, she was a typical princess. I know the show is not realiable, but Oberyn did mention that Elia loved her "Rockstar husband" twice, in his first appearance, and later in the History and Lore of Westeros that comes with the Blu-Ray. And i believe him, it makes Elia's story much more tragic than it already is, it looks like something GRRM would write.

I tought Rhaegar and Elia were a fine couple, but it seems the circumstances around them made their marriage impossible to work, especially because everything happened very quickly for them after they married. It seems that there was no time for them, and soon after Rhaegar met Lyanna, it was over.

Lysa was sleeping with Little Finger when she knew full well he thought she was Cat.   Please, Lysa was not OK.   And I think Little Finger did far more to destroy Lysa than her husband.  A better man could not have been found for her.   Too bad the age card gets played so much in this.   I never read Jon Arryn did anything other than try to run a kingdom and the Vale and be a decent husband.   Where is the rule that says a man (or woman) significantly older than a woman (or man) can't possibly be a good spouse?   That's narrow.   

I can't talk show Elia with you.   This is the book forum.    And isn't that Hightower kid the one she ended up laughing at because he had gas? Please keep in mind that Oberyn & Elia were kids when they went on their betrothal tour and that the Dornish are very different culturally from the rest of the realm.   I seriously doubt Elia was a simple person.  Rhaegar chose her, after all.   The Prince of Prophecy was not getting involved with a bubble head.   As far as the ASOIAF book series goes, I don't know that Rhaegar & Elia's marriage was over at all once Lyanna came into the picture.   In fact, I think it's probable that Elia helped Rhaegar choose Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy.   Sorry again, but there isn't enough textual information about Elia to make an informed decision about her likes or dislikes. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I would be interested to see how a Rhaegar/Catelyn marriage would have turned out.

Me too.

Actually, this was one of the matches i liked the most, Rhaegar/Catelyn and Rhaegar/Elia. I liked these matches the most because they looked all too similar, both Catelyn and Elia seems to have been very dutiful women, but somehow, Elia's marriage with Rhaegar didn't work. I believe that a lot happened, things beyond their control, and it happened at the worst time possible. Likely, the same would have happened with Catelyn and Rhaegar

But, if we take some things out of the equation, like Aerys and his madness, and Lyanna Stark(this one especially), then i see a more positive picture for Rhaegar and Catelyn and Rhaegar and Elia.

I have no doubt that Catelyn would be utmost dutiful to Rhaegar, and if she fell in love with Brandon Stark so quikly because of his appearance, then she would fell in love with Rhaegar as well.

If Aerys proves himself to be a problem, just like he did originally, I can see Catelyn not only siding with Rhaegar, but also helping him to deal with his father, especially because she was a healthy woman, she had what it takes for these stressful and dangerous situations. Something i believe Elia couldn't do as she was a very delicate woman with a fragile health.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

45 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Cersei is just a year older than Lyanna herself, she was just a child when Tywin tried to arrange her betrothal to Rhaegar, which makes me think that Rhaegar would have had time enough to realise what Cersei could become in the future, and with this in mind, he would have a fair shot in change her into a faithful and loyal bride. Would it work? no idea, but since Cersei wanted this marriage so much, i like to think that Rhaegar could turn her into a loyal wife. Hell, he made the wild Lyanna Stark fall in love with him, he has some serious skills.

Yeah, Cersei seemed to be obsessed with Rhaegar since she was a girl. She's even taken with Aurane Waters just because he shares some of his same features. If they had married when Tywin wanted I think Cersei would very much want to give Rhaegar his three dragon heads. If only because they'd be such beautiful children for her to fuss over. If Rhaegar's eyes didn't wounder I think she'd continue to worship him. 

45 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

I know, that's why i said you can consider Oberyn an honorable man, but not like Ned Stark by no means.

The thing is I'm not even sure Oberyn would consider himself an "honorable man," at least I don't think he'd use those words when describing himself. He loves his family and all but I don't think he ever made decisions based on whether or not they were considered honorable in the eyes of others. I guess it would depend on how you would define honorable. What one person considers honorable another person could consider foolish. Just my opinion on it anyway. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I would be interested to see how a Rhaegar/Catelyn marriage would have turned out.

You know I think she would have loved it.   She managed to forget all her duties when she got the chance to follow her son around.    Poor Rhaegar. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lysa was sleeping with Little Finger when she knew full well he thought she was Cat.   Please, Lysa was not OK. 

She was just a young girl, a teenager, trying to conquer the boy she liked, nothing out of the ordinary happening there. She knew Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon, so she might as well try to conquer Littlefinger. He cannot have Catelyn, and Catelyn doesn't want him.

The only thing here that Lysa did that was not ok was having sex with a boy/man she was not married with.

22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 Too bad the age card gets played so much in this.   I never read Jon Arryn did anything other than try to run a kingdom and the Vale and be a decent husband.   Where is the rule that says a man (or woman) significantly older than a woman (or man) can't possibly be a good spouse?   That's narrow.   

You do know the difference in age between Lysa and Jon Arryn right? it didn't matter that Jon Arryn tried or didn't tried to be a good husband, Lysa had Lyanna's age when she married Jon Arryn, she was 15-16 while he was in his sixties, can you imagine that? there is no way that such a marriage will be happy, quite the contrary. Catelyn knew this very well, that's why she never blamed Lysa for what she became. Hoster Tully, her father, he not only forced her to marry Jon Arryn, but he also forced her to have an abortion, and she didn't want any of that. I feel terribly sorry for Lysa, just like Hoster did in his last days.

And in the end, she was also used by Littlefinger.

40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I seriously doubt Elia was a simple person.  Rhaegar chose her, after all.

Rhaegar didn't chose her, he married her because Aerys told him to. And i believe Elia was a simple person, i believe she was not interested in politics, nor anything related to it. It seems the only thing she wanted and cared for was her children, the image she passes to me is that of a simple woman who found herself married with a complicated man at a complicated time in his life.

45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 In fact, I think it's probable that Elia helped Rhaegar choose Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. 

Let's not talk about the prophecy ok? the prophecy is already far too complicated of a topic. I gave up trying to figure what was the prophecy all about. I think people give too much credit to prophecies and ignores a lot of other things that happened before any talk of prophecy started,

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

46 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yeah, Cersei seemed to be obsessed with Rhaegar since she was a girl. She's even taken with Aurane Waters just because he shares some of his same features. If they had married when Tywin wanted I think Cersei would very much want to give Rhaegar his three dragon heads. If only because they'd be such beautiful children for her to fuss over. If Rhaegar's eyes didn't wounder I think she'd continue to worship him. 

If he doesn't meet Lyanna, i can see a future for Cersei and Rhaegar(kind of), but it also depends on the distance the Lannisters will keep. If Cersei keeps the Lannister far too close, i don't see a future for them, but again, i don't think she will have that much power with Rhaegar as she had with Robert. She would be only a child by the time she married Rhaegar, while she was already a woman when she married Robert, and Robert wasn't that much older than her, while Rhaegar was.

38 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

. I guess it would depend on how you would define honorable. What one person considers honorable another person could consider foolish. Just my opinion on it anyway. 

Oberyn's honor is very gray, i don't see him killing children nor condoning such acts, unlike Robert Baratheon for example, so there is that. Honor has it's tiers, and Ned Stark sadly is at the highest tier, Oberyn is on a much much lower tier.

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know I think she would have loved it.   She managed to forget all her duties when she got the chance to follow her son around.    Poor Rhaegar. 

LOL

 

[Curled Finger]

39 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

She was just a young girl, a teenager, trying to conquer the boy she liked, nothing out of the ordinary happening there. She knew Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon, so she might as well try to conquer Littlefinger. He cannot have Catelyn, and Catelyn doesn't want him.

The only thing here that Lysa did that was not ok was having sex with a boy/man she was not married with.

You do know the difference in age between Lysa and Jon Arryn right? it didn't matter that Jon Arryn tried or didn't tried to be a good husband, Lysa had Lyanna's age when she married Jon Arryn, she was 15-16 while he was in his sixties, can you imagine that? there is no way that such a marriage will be happy, quite the contrary. Catelyn knew this very well, that's why she never blamed Lysa for what she became. Hoster Tully, her father, he not only forced her to marry Jon Arryn, but he also forced her to have an abortion, and she didn't want any of that. I feel terribly sorry for Lysa, just like Hoster did in his last days.

And in the end, she was also used by Littlefinger.

Rhaegar didn't chose her, he married her because Aerys told him to. And i believe Elia was a simple person, i believe she was not interested in politics, nor anything related to it. It seems the only thing she wanted and cared for was her children, the image she passes to me is that of a simple woman who found herself married with a complicated man at a complicated time in his life.

Let's not talk about the prophecy ok? the prophecy is already far too complicated of a topic. I gave up trying to figure what was the prophecy all about. I think people give too much credit to prophecies and ignores a lot of other things that happened before any talk of prophecy started,

 

Ok, we're at an impasse.   You are able to read a thing and decide a character has a trait.   I'm not that good at it.   I only have what's written.  I do realize what the age difference between Lysa and Jon Arryn was.   You sound aghast at the idea an old man could love a young woman or be a good husband to her.  Marrying Jon was Lysa's job.  He didn't sound like a bad husband to me and it looks like she managed to keep her icky boyfriend on the side.  And I think sleeping with a guy even though you know he digs your sister is some serious neediness. 

My mention of prophecy wasn't to discuss prophecy.  This thing was huge to Rhaegar--looked to be a prime motivator to me.  I don't know that Elia wasn't complicit in everything Rhaegar did once she found out what it was all about.   

Ha! I may have just read a thing and decided something.   I remembered Tywin being shot down and the betrothal tour of Elia and Oberyn.   Steffon's trip to Volantis to find a wife.  I know Aerys told Rhaegar to get the job done, but I assumed Rhaegar chose Elia of the possible candidates.  

Like I said, I don't think any of the matches were great. I wouldn't have chosen Cat for Ned in a million years, but it worked out well between them.  It had to be a complete drag to be told who you will spend your life with.   

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

My mention of prophecy wasn't to discuss prophecy.  This thing was huge to Rhaegar--looked to be a prime motivator to me.

Yeah I agree. It's hard to get around the prophecy factor when discussing possible Rhaegar marriages. With tPtwP and the dragon must have three heads and everything else. Prophecy just seems to be a big deal to Rhaegar.

[Crona]

Oberyn and Lyanna is interesting and although Lyanna is considered fiery, I don’t know if that’s what Oberyn really liked. From what  I remember Ellaria was kind hearted and gentle, and rather sexually adventurous or Elia who was also kind, they both don’t seem very fiery to me. Whereas Lyanna might not have been so adventurous, but did have a much more wild personality

[Angel Eyes]

I wonder what would have happened if Ned and Catelyn were betrothed right off the bat. They seem like a good match.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 12/24/2017 at 9:09 PM, TsarGrey said:

Isn't there chance they could actually work out fairly well? There's passing interest to each other in both sides, by Catelyn in Riverrun cell, and by Jaime when he reminisces about being sent to bear message to Riverrun. They also have common values, as honor is very important to both - if Jaime never falls through his wows by regicide, his honor is untarnished in the eyes of the world, and naturally his own relationship to it as well.

That was in the show. In the books she always hated him.

“In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling. 

Go and hunt, Cersei had urged Robert, half a hundred times. My brother keeps me well protected.”

[Ylath's Snout]

So I think Oberyn and Catelyn could make it if they could sort out the whole "bastard-problem", they both care deeply for their family although how they define family differs because of cultural differences.

Oberyn I feel would never shun his daughters just to please a wife but by the same coin I'm having a hard time seeing him mistreat a wife unless the the relationship has turned completely toxic. Catelyn would feel duty bound to stay true to her marriage woes, so I think there would be some effort by both of them to make the relationship work.

Cat would have a really hard time accepting the Sand Snakes but there are some mitigating factors:

1 They are all girls, this alone makes them much less threatening than Jon Snow to Cat's Andal sensibilities. (Even if their gender don't matter much in Dorn)

2 Bastards seems pretty common so Cat would likely learn that while Sands are respected they don't inherit. Cat worries a lot about Jon stealing her children's rightful inheritance and this might reassure her.

3 Jon Snow was nasty surprise to the newly-ish wedd Cat after the war compounded by Ned keeping the child's mother secret. I think is is reasonable to assume that Cat would enter into marriage with Oberyn knowing that the Sand Snakes existed so she would have some time to mentally prepare herself for that fact. 

I don't think that Cat would adopt them as her own or anything like that but some of circumstances that "soured" Can on Jon would be very different. By the time Catelyn internalizes enough Dornish values to actual recognize that girls can become heirs and therefore threaten to usurp any of her and Oberyn's kids she would hopefully realize that they in all likelihood they won't because all C+O kids regardless of sex would stand before them in the line of inheritances.

 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

On 19.4.2018 at 11:13 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

That was in the show. In the books she always hated him.

I don't watch the show, I meant this, in Catelyn VII, Clash...

Quote

Catelyn shouldered aside the heavy wood-and-iron door and stepped into foul darkness. This was the bowels of Riverrun, and smelled the part. Old straw crackled underfoot. The walls were discolored with patches of nitre. Through the stone, she could hear the faint rush of the Tumblestone. The lamplight revealed a pail overflowing with feces in one corner and a huddled shape in another. The flagon of wine stood beside the door, untouched. So much for that ploy. I ought to be thankful that the gaoler did not drink it himself, I suppose.

Jaime raised his hands to cover his face, the chains around his wrists clanking. "Lady Stark," he said, in a voice hoarse with disuse. "I fear I am in no condition to receive you."

"Look at me, ser."

"The light hurts my eyes. A moment, if you would." Jaime Lannister had been allowed no razor since the night he was taken in the Whispering Wood, and a shaggy beard covered his face, once so like the queen's. Glinting gold in the lamplight, the whiskers made him look like some great yellow beast, magnificent even in chains. His unwashed hair fell to his shoulders in ropes and tangles, the clothes were rotting on his body, his face was pale and wasted . . . and even so, the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent.

"I see you had no taste for the wine I sent you."

So, even filthy, chained and in the dark, and despite all she had against him, she still admits his beauty. Now if you remove her prejudice, hatred and loathing - in this scenario, he has not killed Aerys or thrown Bran out of window - can you see my original argument making any more sense? She wasn't all that taken with Ned either at start.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 12/24/2017 at 9:28 PM, Curled Finger said:

I don't think Tywin would care how Cat and Jamie got along, though it sure doesn't sound like a good match at all.  As I said, that's how I would do it if i was Tywin.  I often forget Cersei once at least desired Robert and he blew it very early in their relationship.  Had he been an attentive and loving husband who knows how either of them would turn out.   17 years in a bad relationship will twist anyone.  

That was in the show. In the books she always hated him.

“In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling. 

Go and hunt, Cersei had urged Robert, half a hundred times. My brother keeps me well protected.”

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

I don't watch the show, I meant this, in Catelyn VII, Clash...

So, even filthy, chained and in the dark, and despite all she had against him, she still admits his beauty. Now if you remove her prejudice, hatred and loathing - in this scenario, he has not killed Aerys or thrown Bran out of window - can you see my original argument making any more sense? She wasn't all that taken with Ned either at start.

Sorry. I meant to quote Curled Finger.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

13 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Sorry. I meant to quote Curled Finger.

That explains why I didn't see your quote as relevant.

No prob, nice Saturday.

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That was in the show. In the books she always hated him.

“In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling. 

Go and hunt, Cersei had urged Robert, half a hundred times. My brother keeps me well protected.”

As if she guarded the whole of Casterly Rock’s gold.

What about my suggestion? And how pissed would Hoster Tully be if his daughter married a second son?