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Valyrian and First Men Connections


Corvo the Crow

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There are numerous threads trying to connect this house or that character to Valyrians, or even more narrowly, Targaryens. This isn't one of those, but one that hopes to connect Valyrians to First Men.

I don't have much time at hand right now so for now I'll just copy/paste a post I have sent to another thread.

 

 

Dothraki and Lhazereen are obviously more closely related to each other than most other people, with their Almond shaped eyes, copper skin and black hair.

First Men have mastered horses, while Valyrians were shephards. Much like Dothraki being horseriders and closely related Lhazerene being shepherds.

There is at least one first men house with similar traits to Valyrians, House Dayne. They have the purpley eyes and also sometimes show the silver hair (Gerold). We also have a silver haired Hightower, Alicent. Valyrians also have fair/pale skin. While we don't generally get fair skin descriptions for anyone, Stony Dornish which are probably the closest Dornish group to First Men there is, have fair skin. From few well described people, we can also think First Men are fair/skinned, like Val and Alys Karstark.

Lhazar is roughly in the same latitudes as northern half of the Valyria. So if, horseriding common ancestors of Dothraki-Lhazerene moved as far south as Lhazar, or moved as far north as Vaes Dothrak. from Lhazar, then some First Men may also have done the same, going to Valyria on their migration. If Lhazarene-Dothraki ancestors lacked horses and yet have gone as far south/north, then all the more possibility that First Men with horses to be able to travel more distances to search for places to settle.

 

Anything else that we can connect these two peoples with?

I'll edit this post as I have more time for research and as other posters bring forth ideas/facts.

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9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It is not fair to say that people from north of the wall have fair skin so they are closely related to Valyrians.  People who don't see much sun become fair skinned.

It is not Valyrians have pale skin + First men also fair skin = they are related

First Men is thought to have originated from Grass Sea, which is to the east of Valyrian Peninsula. They moved to the Westeros using the now broken Arm of Dorne, which is located on the southernmost edges of Both Westeros and Western Essos. Northern edge of Valyrian Peninsula is around the same latitude as Arm of Dorne.

With the above taken into consideration, It is plausible that:

1. Some First Men striked south and settled in the Valyrian Peninsula to become the ancestors of the sheepherding Valyrians

or

2. Peninsula was already populated by the Valyrian Ancestors but for this reason or that some Valyrians, like Daynes, tagged along and joined the First Men on their migration.

 

2. is not something unheard of in our world, Huns incoroporating other (defeated) tribes into their horde on their westward march. So if it is 2.  Daynes and any other Valyrians stood in the path of First Men may just have been defeated and added to the horde of First Men. Because, to be real, in our world first contact is rarely peaceful.

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18 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That is fair and plausible, its just that their common ancestor would be pretty far back if that were the case.

Yes it would be.

2 is far more likely to be correct than 1 due to the fact there's plenty of Valyrians with Dayne traits and none with say, Stark traits. But you can never know, perhaps the minority of Dayne like Valyrians became the majority over time. Just look at all those dragonseeds around; people were very happy to give Targaryens the right of the first night. It could be that in Valyria, people preferred those with the now common traits as mates and with possible polygamy, those traits took over in time. Polygamy was not only practiced by recent Valyrians, but there are also practicers of polygamy, or some sort of it, Beyond the Wall. Ygon Oldfather and Craster for marriages, Weeper and some others for travelling around to have babies from many women.

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About Daynes and their eyes. Had to search some to find this. Anyway, supposedly GRRM has said... 

Quote

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

So I would argue that eyes of the Daynes cannot be used as definite proof of any sort of Valyrian relations. No comment on Gerold's hair color for now.

Link. I found this in @Ebrose's post made 2016, here

@Ran, maybe can you confirm this?

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@Corvo the Crow, nice topic.   I'm still spinning from the many conversations last week, also investigating origins.   Before we can really begin tying groups to potential origins we've got to understand our history is wrong.  The timeline is more than wonky.  I've also found interesting connections between "1st Men" and other settlers of Westeros.   

There were plenty of sightings of dragons by the earliest settlers.  There are also knights well before the Andals brought them.   Depending on where you sit, a group of 1st Men had both iron and boats well before the Andals.  It's probably safe to assume the Celtigar and Velaryon families migrated near the same time as the Targaryans.  The Royce family, ancient 1st Men, have that suit of armor engraved with runes, another practice prevalent among the Valyrians.  

I think it's likely that the real 1st Men settled thrice and consisted of different cultures.  Starfall is said to be 10,000 years old while the Barrows claim to be the first settlement.   Of course, I also think the Ironborn are from a place entirely different from the other 1st Men.  Essos has been utterly savaged by war forever.  Braavos appears to be the final settlement on that continent.   I think it's very telling that the island is made up of diverse faiths, races and creeds yet they managed to successfully "hide" from the Valyrians they escaped from and established such powerful institutions as the Iron Bank.  There is no reason other slaves escaped other masters and established themselves in Westeros.   The Thenns claim to have perfectly preserved the culture of 1st Men.  There is no way the people of the Reach, Stormlands or Dorne have anything in common with the Thenns. 

Regardless SSMs, we know the Daynes are an ancient house with Valyrian features.   Who knows if they were shepherds before the Valyrians learned fire magic?  The Targaryans have married into the Dayne family.  I wonder if that wasn't something like the problem Aerys had marrying Rhaegar off.  There was no relative available for marriage and it seems the Valyrian "look" was important to Aerys as he sent Steffon Baratheon to Volantis in search of a suitable mate.  

I have every confidence that some sort of proto Valyrians came across the Arm of Dorne well before anyone landed anywhere else.  As diverse as the people of Westeros are it's absurd to believe the history as it is presented.  

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8 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

So I would argue that eyes of the Daynes cannot be used as definite proof of any sort of Valyrian relations. No comment on Gerold's hair color for now.

I know about those, but thanks!

As I posted in another topic, despite most people in our wolrd with blonde hair being caucasian, there are different, isolated groups that got theirs from other mutations.

So it is entirely possible that Daynes got their eyes seperately from Valyrians, it may very well be a trait gained only recently. But as I said, Valyrian Peninsula lies somewhat on the path of the First Men migration so Daynes could have been a defeated Valyrian tribe that was added into the First Men or some First Men who already had that eyes splitted and headed south. After all, early Valyrians were shepherds so it must mean good enough land to settle, so why pass that oppurtunity?

Original First Men could very well be a confederacy of different tribes that shared a culture but not ethnicity. Or even if they all shared a very recent common ancestors, there is always speciation. Different tribes may just have decided different traits are attractive. One tribe may have thought grey eyes are attractive while another thought redheads are the best, so they haven't breeded randomly.

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4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Corvo the Crow, nice topic.   I'm still spinning from the many conversations last week, also investigating origins.   Before we can really begin tying groups to potential origins we've got to understand our history is wrong.  The timeline is more than wonky.  I've also found interesting connections between "1st Men" and other settlers of Westeros.   

Thanks! I too think timeline is not correct but I think it is intentional, both in and out of universe. Out of universe, it is a good representation of our world how even very recent events are disputable. In universe, it is Maesters or more likely early septons intentionally blurring history.

As an example, we are sometimes told how that stonewalls are a late achievement, and round towers are from after Andal Invasions. But then there's the Fist of the First Men, a ring fort with it's stonewalls.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There were plenty of sightings of dragons by the earliest settlers.  There are also knights well before the Andals brought them.   Depending on where you sit, a group of 1st Men had both iron and boats well before the Andals.  It's probably safe to assume the Celtigar and Velaryon families migrated near the same time as the Targaryans.  The Royce family, ancient 1st Men, have that suit of armor engraved with runes, another practice prevalent among the Valyrians.  

 I'm not sure if there were knights before Andals, but First Men who brought horses to Westeros definitely also fought on horseback. Andals may or may not had horses in Essos but for a certainty they never brought any to Westeros during their early invasions because to our knowledge they only had longboats. Knighthood may just have been a concept that Andals later merged with horseback fighting after they gained horses in Westeros.

On Dragons I think they were present in many areas,just like there were giants in both Westeros and many areas of Essos. They somehow became extinct though. It is also thought that Valyrian dragons were bred with Fire Wyrms and that's how they got their fiery breath. So Westerosi ones may have lacked the fire and were hunted down easily.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think it's likely that the real 1st Men settled thrice and consisted of different cultures

I think something similar, check my above post.

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@Corvo the Crow, we are completely on the same page here.  A couple of times I was very fortunate to have "list makers" share in my topics.   It helps so much in keeping the conversation straight.  At this point it might be helpful to have a list of things in Westeros that predate the various settlers.  Off the top of my head we've got:

1.  Stone Walls (Brilliant by the way)

2.  Knights (Ser Galladon & Just Maid)

3.  Engraved runes on metals

4.  Dragons

5.  Iron working

6.  Ships

Let me know if I missed anything and will revise.   

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22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

@Corvo the Crow, we are completely on the same page here.  A couple of times I was very fortunate to have "list makers" share in my topics.   It helps so much in keeping the conversation straight.  At this point it might be helpful to have a list of things in Westeros that predate the various settlers.  Off the top of my head we've got:

1.  Stone Walls (Brilliant by the way)

2.  Knights (Ser Galladon & Just Maid)

3.  Engraved runes on metals

4.  Dragons

5.  Iron working

6.  Ships

Let me know if I missed anything and will revise.   

On runes, I missed it on your first post. What runing did Valyrians do? Or you meant something else?

I have an exam in a week or so, meaning I may not spend much time here but once it's over I should be able to spend some time on this.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

On runes, I missed it on your first post. What runing did Valyrians do? Or you meant something else?

I have an exam in a week or so, meaning I may not spend much time here but once it's over I should be able to spend some time on this.

If you've studied for your exams to the extent you studied for this post you will ace them.   I'm thinking specifically of Tormund's arm bands (gold) and the Royce armor (bronze). Dragon Binder is also inscribed with runes and said to be ancient.  

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8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If you've studied for your exams to the extent you studied for this post you will ace them.   I'm thinking specifically of Tormund's arm bands (gold) and the Royce armor (bronze). Dragon Binder is also inscribed with runes and said to be ancient.  

Just a small point.  I do believe that when its written in High Valyrian, they are referred to as glyphs, whereas the runes refer to the First men stuff.

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9 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Just a small point.  I do believe that when its written in High Valyrian, they are referred to as glyphs, whereas the runes refer to the First men stuff.

You know I remembered that, but I thought it would be splitting hairs.  However, I thank you for pointing that out as it may be significant.  I don't know where you are, but I hope you are having a very Merry holiday...

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28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know I remembered that, but I thought it would be splitting hairs.  However, I thank you for pointing that out as it may be significant.  I don't know where you are, but I hope you are having a very Merry holiday...

You as well!  I got like 12 hours of sleep last night no joke, I honestly feel like that was my Christmas present.

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I’ve been super intrigued by the round towers and gargoyles of Westeros which seem to predate what we aught to expect from the history as given.

For instance, the Blackwoods are said to have been driven south from the Wolfswood by the Starks. However, Raventree Hall is said to have been built before round towers:

Quote

Raventree Hall was old. Moss grew thick between its ancient stones, spiderwebbing up its walls like the veins in a crone's legs. Two huge towers flanked the castle's main gate, and smaller ones defended every angle of its walls. All were square. Drum towers and half-moons held up better against catapults, since thrown stones were more apt to deflect off a curved wall, but Raventree predated that particular bit of builder's wisdom.

 
And yet we know both the Fist of the First Men and the First Keep of Winterfell had round walls:
Quote

The First Keep was simple enough, an old round drum tower, but Sansa was stymied again when it came to putting the gargoyles around the top.

If Bran the Builder was the founder of House Stark, and built Winterfell, there is a clear discrepancy there... of course Bran the Builder was also supposedly involved in the construction of round walls of Storms End and the Hightower. Not to mention the curving “snakelike” western half of The Wall.

The prevelance of gargoyles on Dragonstone also presents an odd detail as presumably Winterfell far predates Dragonstone, and the First Keep is covered in them.

When you also consider that the last hero supposedly used “dragonsteel”, it seems possible and maybe probable that there was some separate proto-Valyrian presence in Westeros before even the founding of Valyria.
 
My personal theory I’ve been mulling over is that the breaking of the Arm of Dorne was a part of the Pact between men and Children. But unlike the history suggests, it was the Men who wanted it broken, because they were fleeing from Proto-Valyrians (Empire of Ashai, before it’s fall), much in the same way the Andals later fled from the expanding Valyrian Empire.
 
This might also play into the fact that the Hightower is built on “Battle Isle” and the timing of the construction of the round towers of Winterfell and the expulsion of the First Men Blackwoods from the North.
 
How the Daynes would retain such strong expression of ressesive genes after so long if they were the only carriers is still anyone’s guess.
 
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  • 1 month later...

Just a small addition:

 

This is one of Salladhor's Lyseni captains and one description of Lyseni

Quote
The captain had been very kind to him. His name was Khorane Sathmantes, a Lyseni like Salladhor Saan, whose ship this was. He had the pale blue eyes you often saw on Lys, set in a bony weatherworn face, but he had spent many years trading in the Seven Kingdoms. When he learned that the man he had plucked from the sea was the celebrated onion knight, he gave him the use of his own cabin and his own clothes, and a pair of new boots that almost fit. He insisted that Davos share his provisions as well, though that turned out badly. His stomach could not tolerate the snails and lampreys and other rich food Captain Khorane so relished, and after his first meal at the captain's table he spent the rest of the day with one end or the other dangling over the rail.
The Lyseni are also great breeders of slaves, mating beauty with beauty in hopes of producing ever more refined and lovely courtesans and bedslaves. The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. The Lysene nobility values purity of blood above all and have produced many famous (and infamous) beauties. Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty. Aptly, many Lyseni worship a love goddess whose naked, wanton figure graces their coinage.

 

Here are a list of characters with pale blue eyes from Westeros:

Barristan Selmy, Lysa Tully, Wyman Manderly, Leobald Tallhart, Harrold Hardyng

and some with Blue-Grey eyes:

Jason Mallister, Ygritte, Benjen Stark

Tully, Manderly, Tallhart and Stark are first men houses, Ygritte is a wildling, Mallister is Brown haired and blue-grey eyed, like most First men are, that leaves Selmys, a house from Dornish Marches in Stormlands, therefore also very likely to be First men (due to Storm kings mostly being succesful on stalling the Andals) and Harrold Hardyng.

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Funny I'm seeing this pop up now. I've recently had some of my own speculation about the First Men, but not that they were 'proto-valyrians' necessarily.

Rather, my own (crackpotish) supposition has to do with the cyclical nature of magic induced cataclysms in-universe, and that their leaving of Essos is connected to whatever happened in Asshai. It could be that they were the perpetrators of the event (unwitting or not) and were maybe even kicked out of Essos because of it. The other possibility with this, is that maybe they were the targets or unintended victims of the cataclysm.

On a side note, the description of the oily black stone, found all over Asshai, seemingly drinking sunlight reminds me of The Others and how they only come out at night or bring the night with them.

My other, even more crackpot idea is that the proto-First Men had a war or several wars with the Ifequevron and either fled or were ejected from Essos because of this. My only basis for this would be this is why the First Men went after the CotF so much, was because of the similarity between these two 'elder races'.

I do like the ideas presented here that they may not have been an actual singular group but rather a group of various tribes leaving Essos for (insert reason here).

On another side note, I'm sure I've read an interview with Martin that much of what we've read from the in-universe history will never get an explanation, which of course includes the origin on the First Men. Do you think Martin is being 'Lynchian' with us and actually has the answer, but won't give it up?

 

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On 12/24/2017 at 0:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

There are numerous threads trying to connect this house or that character to Valyrians, or even more narrowly, Targaryens. This isn't one of those, but one that hopes to connect Valyrians to First Men.

I don't have much time at hand right now so for now I'll just copy/paste a post I have sent to another thread.

Dothraki and Lhazereen are obviously more closely related to each other than most other people, with their Almond shaped eyes, copper skin and black hair.

First Men have mastered horses, while Valyrians were shephards. Much like Dothraki being horseriders and closely related Lhazerene being shepherds.

There is at least one first men house with similar traits to Valyrians, House Dayne. They have the purpley eyes and also sometimes show the silver hair (Gerold). We also have a silver haired Hightower, Alicent. Valyrians also have fair/pale skin. While we don't generally get fair skin descriptions for anyone, Stony Dornish which are probably the closest Dornish group to First Men there is, have fair skin. From few well described people, we can also think First Men are fair/skinned, like Val and Alys Karstark.

Lhazar is roughly in the same latitudes as northern half of the Valyria. So if, horseriding common ancestors of Dothraki-Lhazerene moved as far south as Lhazar, or moved as far north as Vaes Dothrak. from Lhazar, then some First Men may also have done the same, going to Valyria on their migration. If Lhazarene-Dothraki ancestors lacked horses and yet have gone as far south/north, then all the more possibility that First Men with horses to be able to travel more distances to search for places to settle.

Anything else that we can connect these two peoples with?

I'll edit this post as I have more time for research and as other posters bring forth ideas/facts.

There does not need to be a connection between the two people. One of the reasons why there is a 12,000 year history in westeros is that for a very long time, greenseers could simply look back via weirnet and see what had happened. If there were people before the first men, bran will eventually find out 

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