Lord Varys

Aelora Targaryen, Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne

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Since @Ran recently confirmed that Princess Aelora, eldest daughter of Prince Rhaegel, succeeded her twin-brother Aelor as Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, with Maekar only rising to that august position after Aelora took her own life, I thought we should both spread this fact somewhat more and discuss the implications of this revelation.

For one, it is a pretty strong blow against this idea that all male Targaryens come before the men. King Aerys I apparently preferred the whole 'a daughter comes before an uncle' idea, no?

In addition, it makes Aelora a potentially pretty interesting character. One assumes that she must have been reasonably close to both Aerys I and Bloodraven and been deemed competent and capable enough to sit the Iron Throne and rule in her own right - else they would have turned to Maekar at once.

And then there is, of course, the mystery as to why Aelora's younger sister, Princess Daenora - the (future) wife of Aerion Brightflame and mother of Prince Maegor - did apparently not succeed Aelora as Heir Apparent. If Aerys I chose Princess Aelora over Prince Maekar it is very odd that he didn't also choose Daenora over Maekar.

Any thoughts on the matter?

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I was really surprised by that information. For me it had always been clear that Maekar was named heir directly after Aelor's death in 217 AC. 

So we do know now that Aelora died at some point between 217 and 221 AC. Which makes it even more likely that the assault on her took place during some feast right before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. But I am wondering about Aelora's mental state after her brother husband's death. The text makes it sound as she behaved like Helaena after the death of Jaehaerys, but I am not sure if she would have been named heir in that case.

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On 12/25/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

Since @Ran recently confirmed that Princess Aelora, eldest daughter of Prince Rhaegel, succeeded her twin-brother Aelor as Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, with Maekar only rising to that august position after Aelora took her own life

That's very intruiging. Link for anyone (else) who hasn't seen it.

On 12/25/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

For one, it is a pretty strong blow against this idea that all male Targaryens come before the men. King Aerys I apparently preferred the whole 'a daughter comes before an uncle' idea, no?

I presume you mean all male Targaryens before female ones, rather than princes of the male-line before men of the female-line & all princesses (& lady daughters/descendants of such).

(Wrt your question.) Well, at the very least, when the king names a female relation (most likely, his closest of that gender) as Heir Apparent over a male one who would be Heir Presumptive in the eyes of many. Even with the implications of the Dance & Regency, especially with Rhaenyra vs Aegon II, & that Viserys II was (imo) almost certainly the Prince of Dragonstone during Baelor's reign (that is, Daena still had some few advocate for her claim over her uncle). Aerys seems to have largely left the rule to Brynden & I don't see why it would be any different with the succession. Rhaegel would be even more of a puppet monarch & after his & Aelor's deaths, Aelora being Princess of Dragonstone probably means a (far) greater chance of the Hand remaining in power if she succeeds her uncle rather than Maekar. Particularly if she was still a minor.

On 12/25/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

In addition, it makes Aelora a potentially pretty interesting character. One assumes that she must have been reasonably close to both Aerys I and Bloodraven and been deemed competent and capable enough to sit the Iron Throne and rule in her own right - else they would have turned to Maekar at once.

As I allude to above, I don't think that would necessarily matter to Aerys & Bloodraven (just look at Rhaegel being PoD), but it would be very interesting if Aelor & Aelora were potentially a Jaehaerys & Alysanne in the making. Also, it's no given that she would rule & sit the Iron Throne in her own right, though. For all we know, she may have had a Regent/Regency forced on her (even if she was of age), simply because of her gender. Like her father presumably would have had, for his mental incapacity, had he inherited the crown.

On 12/25/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

And then there is, of course, the mystery as to why Aelora's younger sister, Princess Daenora - the (future) wife of Aerion Brightflame and mother of Prince Maegor - did apparently not succeed Aelora as Heir Apparent. If Aerys I chose Princess Aelora over Prince Maekar it is very odd that he didn't also choose Daenora over Maekar.

Fair point. Age was probably a factor, given Daenora was between a baby/toddler & a rather young child when her sister passed. Given that Brynden is at least eventually Maekar's Hand & (imo) was most likely part of his Small Council during his entire reign, I lean towards their relationship improving to at least a workable degree in needing to unite against the ironborn &/or Blackfyres. Indeed, I've long wondered if Maekar may have successfully pushed for what was finally the Targaryen response to Dagon Greyjoy. Perhaps even instigated it himself, especially if he was persuaded by Dunk & Egg for duty's sake, like what his somewhat similar great-great-grandson did at the Wall thanks to a certain Onion Knight.

If this was actually the case, surely the Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells, & many of their bannermen would support the claim of Maekar over that of female & underage Daenora. The preferred heir of Aerys & Bloodraven, who had deliberately done nothing for years in leaving their western vassals at the mercy of the ironborn. And of course, there would many other lords across the realm (apart from the Arryns & some other Valemen) who would always support a capable uncle with adult sons over his underage niece (let alone those who would not be fond of King Aerys & his Hand). Particularly if it was after the 3rd BfR, where Maekar became (at least) a second-time war hero & had at least one son join the same ranks.

On 12/25/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lord Varys said:

Any thoughts on the matter?

As something further, I really want to know how Alys & her family played into all of these things & more during the reigns of Aerys & Maekar. On the potential for Rhaegel's children being (highly) competent, I think it would be brilliant if Aelor took possession of Dragonstone when he came of age, even & especially if his father was still alive. I'd like it if there was something of a retcon & he was a squire for Valarr (or Aerion) at Ashford. Possibly even fighting in the eventual Targaryen response to the ironborn, if that was before his death. Details on Aelora's life & deeds, particularly whilst her twin was PoD. With Aerys shunning Aelinor (their namesake?), she could easily have been the effective Lady of the Realm during that time. What was their relationship with their mother & her side of the family like? What about the other royals?

On 12/25/2017 at 11:18 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

I was really surprised by that information. For me it had always been clear that Maekar was named heir directly after Aelor's death in 217 AC.

Same.

On 12/25/2017 at 11:18 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

So we do know now that Aelora died at some point between 217 and 221 AC. Which makes it even more likely that the assault on her took place during some feast right before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. But I am wondering about Aelora's mental state after her brother husband's death. The text makes it sound as she behaved like Helaena after the death of Jaehaerys, but I am not sure if she would have been named heir in that case.

Good point, though "mad, meek, & sickly" Rhaegel was heir for about six years, so his daughter's mental state wouldn't have necessarily have disqualified her. Perhaps she wasn't as severely afflicted as Helaena, possibly more akin to Aegon III (or at least in time). Or her condition wasn't widely known, if the circumstances of her brother-husband's death & the immediate aftermath of it weren't public. In fact, even as the Princess of Dragonstone, it's no guarantee Aelora would be trotted out for a masked ball (or anything else) if she were like Helaena. If anything, she flat out wouldn't be, imo. Her appearance at the event where she was accosted by the Rat, the Hawk, & the Pig suggests she wasn't (completely) broken (yet), despite her previous grief & resultant suicide after the attack on her person.

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On 25.12.2017 at 1:18 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

So we do know now that Aelora died at some point between 217 and 221 AC. Which makes it even more likely that the assault on her took place during some feast right before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. But I am wondering about Aelora's mental state after her brother husband's death. The text makes it sound as she behaved like Helaena after the death of Jaehaerys, but I am not sure if she would have been named heir in that case.

She may have recovered from her mad grief. Being responsible for your brother-husband's death should be bad enough, but if it is your twin we are talking about it might even be worse.

On the other hand, if Aerys I and Maekar only reconciled during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion - which is apparently going to give us quite a little bit of Maekar action - then Aerys I and Bloodraven may have decided to prefer Rhaegel's daughter as puppet queen, with Bloodraven ruling in her stead, to Maekar. That would have been the scenario if mad Rhaegel had taken the throne if Aerys I had died early. Unless Rhaegel had lucid episodes the man wouldn't have had an active role in his own government.

It could have been similar with a Queen Aelora. And we should not forget that Prince Maekar was a kinslayer. He did cause the death of Baelor Breakspear, and while this was unintentional many people may have believed he hated his brother and killed him on purpose when he had the chance to disguise it as an accident.

Maekar's role in the fight against Haegon Blackfyre may have helped to better his reputation and standing not only with the king and Bloodraven but also with the lords and the Realm at large.

But chances are now pretty good that we'll see the mask ball where Aelora is raped. And that could very well be an event shortly before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I presume you mean all male Targaryens before female ones, rather than princes of the male-line before men of the female-line & all princesses (& lady daughters/descendants of such).

I mean the standard thing - uncles coming before daughters (as seen with Baelon vs. Rhaenys and Viserys vs. Daena). Whether all male Targaryens - even the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of third and fourth sons - came before daughters or grandsons from daughters has never been tested. Jaehaerys I had sons and grandsons from a son. If he had only male-line descendants through younger brothers, uncles, or granduncles Rhaenys' position may have been much stronger.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

(Wrt your question.) Well, at the very least, when the king names a female relation (most likely, his closest of that gender) as Heir Apparent over a male one who would be Heir Presumptive in the eyes of many. Even with the implications of the Dance & Regency, especially with Rhaenyra vs Aegon II, & that Viserys II was (imo) almost certainly the Prince of Dragonstone during Baelor's reign (that is, Daena still had some few advocate for her claim over her uncle).

Viserys is not confirmed as Prince of Dragonstone, nor is there any indication King Baelor did name an heir. Baelor himself was also not the Prince of Dragonstone, merely the presumptive heir of childless King Daeron.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Aerys seems to have largely left the rule to Brynden & I don't see why it would be any different with the succession. Rhaegel would be even more of a puppet monarch & after his & Aelor's deaths, Aelora being Princess of Dragonstone probably means a (far) greater chance of the Hand remaining in power if she succeeds her uncle rather than Maekar. Particularly if she was still a minor.

Chances are that Aelor and Aelora were both already adults when Aelor died in 217 AC. They were already married, after all. But I agree on the whole puppet monarch thing. That is a real possibility. Still, it is obviously a sign that women were obviously not cut out of the succession in principle, especially if the Heir Apparent of a king - Prince Rhaegel in this case - had only living daughters.

This also explains why Princess Vaella's claim was really considered in 233 AC. She was the only child of Maekar's eldest son, and had a King Daeron III ruled Vaella would have been his heir, presumably, not mad Aerion.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

As I allude to above, I don't think that would necessarily matter to Aerys & Bloodraven (just look at Rhaegel being PoD), but it would be very interesting if Aelor & Aelora were potentially a Jaehaerys & Alysanne in the making. Also, it's no given that she would rule & sit the Iron Throne in her own right, though. For all we know, she may have had a Regent/Regency forced on her (even if she was of age), simply because of her gender. Like her father presumably would have had, for his mental incapacity, had he inherited the crown.

There is no indication for any of that. Only incapacitated kings - like Aegon II - or minor kings - like Jaehaerys I and Aegon III - had to suffer a regency (and even this is not always the case, e.g. Daeron I). If Aelora continued to be mad with grief Bloodraven could have had the real power as Hand, of course, but we shouldn't speculate more than that while we have no reason to believe otherwise.

An interesting idea one could toss around is the idea that Bloodraven may have intended to marry her. That way he could rise further than being a mere Hand, becoming the prince consort or king consort at her side. If Shiera Seastar was no longer around at that time - or their relationship had soured - this could be an interesting prospect. Especially if George intends to actually give Bloodraven this somewhat more ambitious, power-hungry side the man is supposed to have...

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Fair point. Age was probably a factor, given Daenora was between a baby/toddler & a rather young child when her sister passed. Given that Brynden is at least eventually Maekar's Hand & (imo) was most likely part of his Small Council during his entire reign, I lean towards their relationship improving to at least a workable degree in needing to unite against the ironborn &/or Blackfyres. Indeed, I've long wondered if Maekar may have successfully pushed for what was finally the Targaryen response to Dagon Greyjoy. Perhaps even instigated it himself, especially if he was persuaded by Dunk & Egg for duty's sake, like what his somewhat similar great-great-grandson did at the Wall thanks to a certain Onion Knight.

Oh, I'm sure Bloodraven doesn't really have to be pushed to help crush Dagon Greyjoy. Whitewalls must have been such a blow to the Blackfyre cause that the Iron Throne could afford to help end the Ironborn raids in 212 and 213 AC.

And it is not really Brynden Maekar has issues with - it is King Aerys I himself. He chose his Hand, not Bloodraven. Bloodraven just became the Hand - which certainly didn't make him all that popular with Maekar, but the man Maekar had issues with his predominantly his royal brother. Just as Stannis really resents that Robert chose to name Ned his Hand instead of him. It didn't make Ned popular with Stannis, either, but Stannis didn't consider Ned his enemy.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

If this was actually the case, surely the Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells, & many of their bannermen would support the claim of Maekar over that of female & underage Daenora. The preferred heir of Aerys & Bloodraven, who had deliberately done nothing for years in leaving their western vassals at the mercy of the ironborn. And of course, there would many other lords across the realm (apart from the Arryns & some other Valemen) who would always support a capable uncle with adult sons over his underage niece (let alone those who would not be fond of King Aerys & his Hand). Particularly if it was after the 3rd BfR, where Maekar became (at least) a second-time war hero & had at least one son join the same ranks.

See above. Maekar is not likely to be ever popular. The Third Blackfyre Rebellion may better his standing with the people, but he is still a kinslayer and thus about as worse - or perhaps even worse - than Bloodraven (who killed at least brothers and nephews rebelling against the throne, not the beloved heir to the throne).

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

As something further, I really want to know how Alys & her family played into all of these things & more during the reigns of Aerys & Maekar. On the potential for Rhaegel's children being (highly) competent, I think it would be brilliant if Aelor took possession of Dragonstone when he came of age, even & especially if his father was still alive. I'd like it if there was something of a retcon & he was a squire for Valarr (or Aerion) at Ashford. Possibly even fighting in the eventual Targaryen response to the ironborn, if that was before his death. Details on Aelora's life & deeds, particularly whilst her twin was PoD. With Aerys shunning Aelinor (their namesake?), she could easily have been the effective Lady of the Realm during that time. What was their relationship with their mother & her side of the family like? What about the other royals?

I expect both Alys Arryn (if still alive) and Daenora to be Egg's greatest rivals and enemies in 233 AC. If there were no faction leaders at court and in the royal family then the idea of a Second Dance after the death of Maekar wouldn't make much sense. The Arryns - including a young Jon Arryn and his father Jasper (possibly a nephew of Alys Arryn) - could have been firmly in Maegor's camp due to the fact that Daenora and Maegor were their kin.

How things with the royal women - Aelinor, Shiera, Alys, Aelora, Daenora, Kiera, Vaella, etc. - was during the reign of Aerys I is pretty much unclear. All we know is that many such women were at court, and there could have been a lot of rivalry there.

7 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Same.

Good point, though "mad, meek, & sickly" Rhaegel was heir for about six years, so his daughter's mental state wouldn't have necessarily have disqualified her. Perhaps she wasn't as severely afflicted as Helaena, possibly more akin to Aegon III (or at least in time). Or her condition wasn't widely known, if the circumstances of her brother-husband's death & the immediate aftermath of it weren't public. In fact, even as the Princess of Dragonstone, it's no guarantee Aelora would be trotted out for a masked ball (or anything else) if she were like Helaena. If anything, she flat out wouldn't be, imo. Her appearance at the event where she was accosted by the Rat, the Hawk, & the Pig suggests she wasn't (completely) broken (yet), despite her previous grief & resultant suicide after the attack on her person.

If the masked ball took place in 219 AC, shortly before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion (or even thereafter),  then she certainly could have recovered by then. Even Helaena may have recovered, by the way. She is sick with grief in the immediate aftermath of Blood and Cheese, but later on Rhaenyra has her imprisoned. We don't know how she felt in those days, or what led to her eventual suicide. It could very well have been the progress of the war, and the blow the loss of Aemond dealt her, causing her to believe that all hope was lost, etc.

Aelora participating in a masked ball indicates she was well enough to do stuff in public. But then, we don't know yet whether she did that. She could also have been assaulted in her chambers, with the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig just being able to infiltrate the castle during the masked ball.

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Hi...Good and interesting topic...I agree with the analysis already posted in this thread but want to provide another possible explanation.

The powers that be may have been reluctant to name maekar because of a fear of who would inherit the throne after him, we know of Aerion and Dearons shortcomings,perhaps in those 4 years egg did something to prove himself worthy to inherit the throne, would tie in well with the overall theme of the dunk and egg stories in my opinion, as well as provide an interesting future story.

I do believe the bloodraven is the true power behind the throne in this era and think that any scenarios involving the succession involve him.

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2 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

The powers that be may have been reluctant to name maekar because of a fear of who would inherit the throne after him, we know of Aerion and Dearons shortcomings,perhaps in those 4 years egg did something to prove himself worthy to inherit the throne, would tie in well with the overall theme of the dunk and egg stories in my opinion, as well as provide an interesting future story.

That is an interesting point. Any sane person would have known that fools and madmen like Daeron and Aerion would come after Maekar - and there was little and less what Maekar could do about that. And if Aerion was already betrothed (or married) to Daenora at the point of Aelora's death this could also explained why she was passed over then. Maekar and Daeron after him would have been better than Daenora and Aerion.

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Wow.

Mindblowing. Seriously. For so many years we (well, some of us) believed women were excluded from succession list altogether (I remember speculating myself if Robert would be next in line to the throne after Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon because Rhaenys and Daenerys would be removed)

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I noticed too many heirs died while BR was hand. Rhaegel,Aelor,Aelora during Aerys's reign, Daeron and Aerion in Maekar's reign. If we add Balor's sons and grandchildren during Daeron's reign (he was not Hand but he was at KL) all these seem suspicious to me.

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45 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I noticed too many heirs died while BR was hand. Rhaegel,Aelor,Aelora during Aerys's reign, Daeron and Aerion in Maekar's reign. If we add Balor's sons and grandchildren during Daeron's reign (he was not Hand but he was at KL) all these seem suspicious to me.

I do not really see anything suspicious about that. Two died from a disease which killed almost half of KL's population. One died from a sickness he got from a whore, one by the hand of his sister wife, two committed suicide. Maybe you could suspect BR of killing Rhaegel, but I am not sure why he would do that.

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16 hours ago, DanaKz said:

I remember speculating myself if Robert would be next in line to the throne after Rhaegar, Viserys and Aegon because Rhaenys and Daenerys would be removed.

That was never all that likely, actually. Robert was Aerys' first cousin once removed through the female line, not his nephew or first cousin through the male line.

The idea that Aerys II - or any king - would prefer as distant a relation as that as an heir if he had a daughter of his own body instead just isn't all that likely. Especially not in a society where purity and royalty of blood is essentially the most important criteria when you lay claim to a throne. The silver-golden haired daughter of a king might marry a cousin like Robert but the idea that the throne would be offered to a person such as him just isn't all that likely. At least not without a very good reason. It might be different with a male-line cousin of the same degree of kinship.

9 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I do not really see anything suspicious about that. Two died from a disease which killed almost half of KL's population. One died from a sickness he got from a whore, one by the hand of his sister wife, two committed suicide. Maybe you could suspect BR of killing Rhaegel, but I am not sure why he would do that.

Rhaegel choked to the death while eating a lamprey pie. Could be an accident. Could be a successful poisoning. But as of yet I see no reason to assume that anyone would have poisoned the guy. Especially not since Bloodraven himself indicates in TMK that he has no issue working with a King Rhaegel.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That was never all that likely, actually. Robert was Aerys' first cousin once removed through the female line, not his nephew or first cousin through the male line.

Yep, probably. It was just a speculation - we wanted to create detailed line of succession, like what British Monarchy has.

We were butting heads if it would be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Rhaenys-Viserys-Daenerys-Robert-Rhaelle's line-Daenerys of Dorn's line  or would it be Aeyrs-Rhaegar-Aegon-Viserys-Rhaenys-Daenerys-Robert, or would it be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Viserys-Robert(etc).

Some people said it had to be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Blackfyres-Bittersteels-etc - as Baratheons and Martells are from female lines hence they have to be excluded from line of succession as well.

Anyway, all of this is just pointless, as these words, which we used as basis for the discussion (To prevent any more situations like that in the future, it became law—or at least custom—that from there on out, a Targaryen woman could never inherit the throne) are simply not true (anymore?) http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/05/the-cycle-of-inheritance-in-a-song-of-ice-and-fire.

Edited by DanaKz

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So, ok, about Daenora.

She was really young (was born after 211and before 216), she was daughter of meek, mad and sickly Rhaegel - I suppose they decided to repeat Jaehaera Targaryen's story - Jaehaera was passed though she was her father heir, but married to the next king.

In Daenora's case they decided to pass her, but betrothed her to Maekar's heir.

Aerion's madness was not well known during this period, and he gained a reputation of war hero during Third Blackfyre Rebellion, so he was considered a sound future king. That's why Aerion didn't marry till his late thirtys - he waited for his child-bride to grow up.

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7 hours ago, DanaKz said:

Yep, probably. It was just a speculation - we wanted to create detailed line of succession, like what British Monarchy has.

We were butting heads if it would be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Rhaenys-Viserys-Daenerys-Robert-Rhaelle's line-Daenerys of Dorn's line  or would it be Aeyrs-Rhaegar-Aegon-Viserys-Rhaenys-Daenerys-Robert, or would it be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Viserys-Robert(etc).

We did this kind of thing a lot prior to the release of TWoIaF but once that came out it became pretty obvious for anyone who really cared about that question that nobody ever formally and legally barred women - or male descendants through the female line - from the succession, so making an official line of succession that extends beyond the king's two eldest sons - if he has no grandchildren yet - or beyond the king's eldest son and the eldest grandson from that son really doesn't make a lot of sense.

This is a medieval monarchy and medieval monarchies don't have clear-cut or uncontested lines of succession.

We see this very beautifully with Prince Aenys being the clear heir of the Conqueror while Maegor's place in the succession in relation to Aenys' daughters was in doubt. A similar thing happened with Viserys I's succession in the early 100s when Daemon saw himself as the king's heir but the king gave him, at best, only lukewarm support (refusing to name him Prince of Dragonstone).

That does not indicate that people had a clear-cut line of succession in mind or were even willing to come up with one. The fact that Prince Valarr is seen as second in the line of succession in THK is clearly only because his father is the Heir Apparent and is conditional on Baelor actually becoming king. King Daeron II chose to name Valarr his heir after Baelor died - but he could just as well have turned to Aerys instead, if he had felt like it. Just as Aegon IV considered to disinherit Daeron and Aerys II made Viserys rather than Aegon his heir after the death of Rhaegar.

7 hours ago, DanaKz said:

Some people said it had to be Aerys-Rhaegar-Aegon-Blackfyres-Bittersteels-etc - as Baratheons and Martells are from female lines hence they have to be excluded from line of succession as well.

That would have been even more ridiculous considering that those men and their descendants were all exiles and traitors. Even George's old statement about women being barred from the succession has to be read in context - just as the 'iron precedent of the Great Council' has to be: While there were still male-line sons of House Targaryen around they may have had a better claim to the throne than females and female-line descendants. But in the absence of any male-line descendants the daughters or the immediate female-line descendants of a king should have better claims than exiled or attainted descendants through the male line.

And even distant male-line cousins marrying lowborn rabble (like Prince Duncan, say) or into minor noble house might be unable (or face great difficulty/opposition) to claim the throne if they suddenly got a shot at it if some great tragedy greatly decimated the royal family.

But in general the Targaryen-Baratheons - Steffon and his three sons - clearly came after Aerys II and his descendants. However, it very much looks as if Rhaenys, Daenerys, and Rhaella herself would have come before Robert and his brothers.

4 hours ago, DanaKz said:

So, ok, about Daenora.

She was really young (was born after 211and before 216), she was daughter of meek, mad and sickly Rhaegel - I suppose they decided to repeat Jaehaera Targaryen's story - Jaehaera was passed though she was her father heir, but married to the next king.

That is possible but we really don't know when exactly Daenora was betrothed to Aerion. Could have been in her childhood, could have been in her adolescence. We don't know.

What's odd is that Aerion - a man likely pretty obsessed with marrying his kin and keeping the bloodline pure - didn't end up up marrying either his sister Daella or his sister Rhae. 

Daenora having the better claim could be relevant here.

4 hours ago, DanaKz said:

In Daenora's case they decided to pass her, but betrothed her to Maekar's heir.

The problem with that idea is that Daeron the Drunk was Maekar's heir - and continued to be his heir while he was king. Daeron predeceased Aerion but we don't know yet when he died. If the betrothal was made while Daeron was still alive the arrangement wouldn't have included Maekar's heir.

4 hours ago, DanaKz said:

Aerion's madness was not well known during this period, and he gained a reputation of war hero during Third Blackfyre Rebellion, so he was considered a sound future king. That's why Aerion didn't marry till his late thirtys - he waited for his child-bride to grow up.

I'm pretty sure people knew what Aerion was - and learned that even in greater detail - during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron and Aerion both were considered to be dreadful heirs during the reign of Maekar.

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6 hours ago, DanaKz said:

So, ok, about Daenora.

She was really young (was born after 211and before 216), she was daughter of meek, mad and sickly Rhaegel - I suppose they decided to repeat Jaehaera Targaryen's story - Jaehaera was passed though she was her father heir, but married to the next king.

In Daenora's case they decided to pass her, but betrothed her to Maekar's heir.

Although this could make an interesting scenario, Aerion was not heir when Aerys I decided to pass Daenora.

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Wow that's a complete shock to me as well! That really begs the question of just how the hell the succession worked. I mean yes most Medieval monarchies lack a codified succession law but sooner or later a set tradition developed; the Iron throne seems to be all over the place and actually pretty dependent on the Monarch naming apparently whomever he wanted as his heir. The First Great Council rejected a Queen Regnant in the form of Rhaenys but Viserys I installed his daughter Rhaenyra without (initial) widespread opposition. Then Aegon II usurped the throne and Rhaenyra lost. Later on there was a brief idea that Daena should succeed to the throne after Baelor the Blessed's death, but that was also rejected (though considering the whole bastard son thing that may not have been just due to her gender). Until now I thought that was the last time a female successor came up until Daenerys. But now we have Aelora as heiress (apparent or presumptive?), which throws out the apparent semi-salic law that functioned after the Dance of the Dragons.

So does that mean that the King can name any relative he wishes as his heir(ess) or that the succession is lose enough that female can be added or removed depending on the will of the Crown?

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11 hours ago, Hiigara129 said:

So does that mean that the King can name any relative he wishes as his heir(ess) or that the succession is lose enough that female can be added or removed depending on the will of the Crown?

It most likely means that this weird idea that women have no claim at all or only come after all males in the succession isn't exactly an idea shared by all the kings - or even all the advisers who give counsel to the kings on legal matters.

Rhaenyra vs. Aegon was an older daughter vs. a younger son. That is a very specific scenario, just as the decision of Rhaenys vs. Baelon or Viserys vs. Laenor were specific scenarios, too.

Aerys I apparently felt that his niece by Rhaegel had a better claim than his youngest brother Maekar. And he wasn't wrong there, at all. Apparently it is a strong legal principle that a daughter comes before an uncle. It is what Alys Karstark, Asha Greyjoy, and various maesters cite as a very strong legal principle. The idea that the Iron Throne is unaffected by this whole thing simply doesn't make much sense.

And the chances are not bad that Aerys I and Bloodraven simply did not want Maekar on the throne after Aelor's death. Especially if it turned out that Aerys I and Maekar only overcame their differences/reconciled during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

In light of the fact that Daeron the Drunk's lackwit daughter Vaella was also considered in 233 AC it was always clear that women continued to have claims. If it had been consensus that women came last then Vaella would only have come up if Egg and his sons had all rejected the throne for some reason. They wouldn't have discussed her claim before they even turned to Aerion's son Maegor.

Especially if they made up the senior branches of the royal family tree. If Daeron had ruled as King Daeron III his daughter would most likely have had the strongest claim, and Daeron would have done anything in his power to ensure that Aerion and his brood would not succeed him.

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Though it's not all that strang for a monarchy to function under a salic or semi-salic succession law (see France, England at different times and Russia) you might be right over the female thing; excluding the 101 Great Council (still weird in my opinion) our only examples of a Princess being specifically passed up are the Queen who Daena the Defiant and apparently Daenora. Daena's exclusion makes perfect sense; even if the Realm had no problem with a Queen Regnant no one's going to accept an unmarried woman with an illegitimate child whose father she refuses to name. Daena's is less clear, though going by Ren's comment there a specific reason and I'm guessing it will be dealt with in a future Dunk and Egg novella or volume 2 of Fire and Blood.

I will say that Daenora being a child makes the most sense. There seems to have been a concise effort to exclude a potential child monarch at the 233 Great Council, age being one of the tow major reasons Prince Magor was blocked, though I'm not sure of Vaella's age had anything to do with her exclusion. Considering the disaster of Aegon III's regency such a thing makes sense.

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