What good can come from the North gaining its independence?

[Varysblackfyre321]

I asked this in a previous thread 

 

and I figure this question alone could prompt a lot more discussion and debate. I think a lot of people here were cheering on the north to win in their independence from the IT but why? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

300 years ago they were willing to send 30000 northmen into battle to preserve their kingdom. Why should they feel any different today?

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

300 years ago they were willing to send 30000 northmen into battle to preserve their kingdom. Why should they feel any different today?

Until Toruff saw fighting the war with Aegon being one he would not win and opted for surrender  because he realized fighting a war just to fight is ultimately pointless.

But, yes they (the nobility of the north), want their independence that's a motive for fighting it, but what actual good can come for it?

[Adam Yozza]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Until Toruff saw fighting the war with Aegon being one he would not win and opted for surrender  because he realized fighting a war just to fight is ultimately pointless.

But, yes they (the nobility of the north), want their independence that's a motive for fighting it, but what actual good can come for it?

*Torrhen

What good can come of it? Well in the North's eyes it means they will no longer be dragged into southern affairs.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Until Toruff saw fighting the war with Aegon being one he would not win and opted for surrender  because he realized fighting a war just to fight is ultimately pointless.

But, yes they (the nobility of the north), want their independence that's a motive for fighting it, but what actual good can come for it?

No taxes for southrons for starters. Northern money stays in the North, to support the Wall or buy food for winter. Maybe even build another Wall in MC and make southrons pay for it?

Odd thing, They want independence and Torrhen bent the knee but people still name their children after him.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

No taxes for southrons for starters. Northern money stays in the North, to support the Wall or buy food for winter. Maybe even build another Wall in MC and make southrons pay for it?

Odd thing, They want independence and Torrhen bent the knee but people still name their children after him.

The wildlings, they're bringing wargs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists I assume some are good people.

But, I must say I don't think any of the major northern houses were suffering having to pay taxes to the IT. At least as far as the war being less costly than yearly tribute.

[Corvo the Crow]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But, I must say I don't think any of the major northern houses were suffering having to pay taxes to the IT. At least as far as the war being less costly than yearly tribute.

We are never given any idea what taxes in Westeros look like so we can't tell. But still, it's got to be better than pay your regional overlord and then pay his overlord, right? Could mean lesser taxes.

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The wildlings, they're bringing wargs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists I assume some are good people.

Why did you think Brandon the Builder had the Wall made? MAKE NORTH GREAT AGAIN!

Brandons campaign speech "Wildlings can come but LEGALLY". And legally they came, after some thousands of years. Politics is slow but Starks are keeping the promises they made.

[Orphalesion]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

*Torrhen

What good can come of it? Well in the North's eyes it means they will no longer be dragged into southern affairs.

Except they totally will. It's not like gaining independence will magically severe the neck and create a magical barrier that "protects" those frozen barbarians from everything that happens directly south to them.

The only thing a Northern independence would lead to would be endless wars in which the Seven Kingdoms retake it.

[Lion of the West]

8 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Except they totally will. It's not like gaining independence will magically severe the neck and create a magical barrier that "protects" those frozen barbarians from everything that happens directly south to them.

The only thing a Northern independence would lead to would be endless wars in which the Seven Kingdoms retake it.

Pretty much this.

One could potentially argue that in the short term the North can take Dorne's place as the "enemy of the realm" and let the Iron Throne unite the realm against a common enemy. But I don't think that's a very great advantage.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

Except they totally will. It's not like gaining independence will magically severe the neck and create a magical barrier that "protects" those frozen barbarians from everything that happens directly south to them.

The only thing a Northern independence would lead to would be endless wars in which the Seven Kingdoms retake it.

No southron army has ever crossed MC, it is that "magical" barrier.

[Orphalesion]

54 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No southron army has ever crossed MC, it is that "magical" barrier.

There's a "magical" new invention called ships. But I guess Northerners have never heard of it :-P

[Curled Finger]

People north seem to like their isolation from the south.  There are perks in being considered separate from the south, as noted above, taxes.  Much is made of the Wildlings migrating south of the Wall.   The Wildlings are also the most magical people we see in Westeros.  No one else has COTF, Giants, Greenseers, Greendreamers or skin changers.  I wonder if the magic in the north is a thing that requires protection, thus the impassible Moat Cailyn and the Neck.   

The Wildlings have made great strides in assimilating with kneeler culture.   The Magnar of Thenn has married Alys Kartsark, presumably to make her home his and his clan's home.   He danced at the wedding.  Tormund and Val understand negotiation and even hostages.  They are manning the castles along the Wall; some are even taking the black, seeming to understand the chain of command.  They are sacrificing their possessions and children.  They are undertaking rescue missions at the direction of the Lord Commander.   I haven't heard of any rapings or  murders at their hands at the Wall.  It's clear they understand what they're dealing with. 

In direct relation to the ratio of magic north:south I think it's possible this desire for separation from the realm is magically motivated whether the north south of the Wall understand it or not.  After all, their magic is waking, too.  

[aryagonnakill#2]

Were all the southern kingdoms together, and only the north separate, the immediate effect would be they would be the Iron Isles only target, and would likely have to pay higher tariffs when trading in the ports in the rest of Westeros.  The taxes issue probably would be a positive for them, and they may also take back the new gift.  However overall the protection provided by being united far outweighs what little gains they would make.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Well, short term, they'd be a lot less susceptible to the machinations of the south. But as posters above have suggested, they would eventually find themselves 'singled out' once the realm was unified and looking for conquest. War can be very profitable. And Kings don't tend to forget about these things. Whether it be for pride or fortune, eventually the armies of the south would amass on the North. And with it's unimaginably large coastal regions they would be swarmed with knights and siege engines. 

What gives me pause for thought is that the Europeans once believed this of England and look how that went. A country, singled out by it's politics, religion and geography ultimately dominating it's neighbors through shipbuilding and commerce. And some very nasty tactics, of course. 

I suppose you could build a version of the North that trades it's cotton and timber with ports outside of Westeros. Braavos would definitely be interested in wood. Maybe One of the free cities would buy the cotton? And you could speculate that with Mance unifying the FF, it would now be possible to communicate with their people and begin more diplomatic discussions. Instead of, you know, just waiting for them to come and kill or rape you. We've already seen a Thenn kneel and wed into the North. There's the popular story of Bael which seems to be well known among the wildlings. According to Ygrette anyway. But sadly this is all guesswork and there's no reason to believe the North either during or after two5k even had the capacity to build trade relations/routes. And peace with their aggressive northerly neighbors is - for a lot of our characters - completely unthinkable. My guess is that they would inevitably be reconquered once winter had passed. 

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Were all the southern kingdoms together, and only the north separate, the immediate effect would be they would be the Iron Isles only target, and would likely have to pay higher tariffs when trading in the ports in the rest of Westeros.  The taxes issue probably would be a positive for them, and they may also take back the new gift.  However overall the protection provided by being united far outweighs what little gains they would make.

And yet ironislands raid the North, along with other regions, during times of war. Which aren't far and inbetween. Targaryens bringing stability is a lie, before them wars were between 2-3 regions, now they are all out çivil wars.

Losing supposed defensive effect of a united Westeros could also benefit North against Iron Islanders in long term. They could start building a navy and take it out to the Iron Man, Theon the Hungry Wolf style.

[Only 89 selfies today]

I'm willing to give the north to the White Walkers if it means peace between them and the humans.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

There's a "magical" new invention called ships. But I guess Northerners have never heard of it :-P

How did these ships break Dorne again? I seem to remember diplomacy winning the day, not ships. The North is more populous and far larger than Dorne as well.

[divica]

4 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

I'm willing to give the north to the White Walkers if it means peace between them and the humans.

If the Wall fall I hope some Southern characters think that way.

Why bring armies into the freezing weather in the north which is a huge territory to defend when there is the neck?

[aryagonnakill#2]

The wars were between 2-3 regions, but almost all regions were at war at almost all times.  The Targaryen peace is not a lie.  In 300 years the Iron Islanders have raided Westeros twice that we know of, compared to every single year before hand.

[Orphalesion]

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How did these ships break Dorne again? I seem to remember diplomacy winning the day, not ships. The North is more populous and far larger than Dorne as well.

Are you aware of the time when the Iron Born conquered a junk of the North, including taking Moat Cailin, right? Now imagine what a fleet drawn from the strength of the Seven Kingdoms could do, particularly at the onset of spring.

The only advantages the North has 1)Winter, which leaves them vulnerable for years on end whenever summer comes, at best an independent Northern ruler might be a "Winter King" 2) The space is an advantage yes, but a lot of it is wilderness, which causes problems 3) Aside from the prestige that comes from the Iron Throne being able to claim all of Westeros, there isn't really anything north of the neck anybody in the Seven Kingdoms desperately wants or needs or would miss if the North pretends to be independent, so there might be less interest in re-conquering it. 

Doesn't change the fact that the North will only be "free" of those "ebil, nasty" southern plots for as long as the South allows them to be, not matter how "independent" they claim themselves to be.