Knights in the Night's Watch

[Rob Storm]

Semi riddle but actual question: Can a Knight in the Night's Watch knight another Night's Watch brother?

Ex. Could Ser Aliser Thorne dub some hypothetical suck up recruit 'Ser Pate of the Wall' ?

Just a random thought, not sure how much it would mean within the watch but Knights, Lords and highborns seem to get a little better treatment.  

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

I think it's possible. I don't see a direct contradiction with the oath.

It's not absurd to think a family member of say Ser Denys Mallister couldn't be knighted, but idk. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I suppose he could. However if Ser Alliser knighted someone and that person was not skilled it would look bad on Alliser for knighting him. Kind of like if you vouch for someone and then that person does something bad it can look bad on you for vouching for them.

[Fencer]

1 hour ago, Rob Storm said:

Semi riddle but actual question: Can a Knight in the Night's Watch knight another Night's Watch brother?

Ex. Could Ser Aliser Thorne dub some hypothetical suck up recruit 'Ser Pate of the Wall' ?

Just a random thought, not sure how much it would mean within the watch but Knights, Lords and highborns seem to get a little better treatment.  

I think it may depend on the conditions under which they were arrived at the wall.  Someone who has been knighted and voluntarily goes to the wall, even under conditions such as ser Alliser, retain their knighthood.  Do we have examples of that title being stripped from someone for crimes committed?

Further, while knights and members of the ruling class are treated well upon arriving at the wall, that is largely in recognition to training and skills that are associated with that standing: martial skills, leadership training, literacy, etc...  Someone knighted at the wall would not necessarily bring those to the table. 

[1000th Lord Commander]

I had this thought a while back, and thought it possible. After all, Ser Perkin the Flea knighted an army to king his squire, so there's no contradiction. Lord Beric knights Gendry for pledging his aliegence.

I imagine had LC Mormont been a southerner, he might have knighted Jon for saving his life.

If the knighthoods match real world examples, then they can't be stripped. Lordships, yes, but knighthoods, no.

[Seams]

I would think knighting members of the Night's Watch would be frowned upon. Even if it's not a written rule, it would be a violation of military discipline and the chain of command if someone out of the ranks could bestow honors or titles on a brother. I would think this function would rest with the Lord Commander or (if he is not a knight) someone he designates.

It's possible that the power to knight people may not be used at all among the Night's Watch brothers. In a POV, Jon tells us that heraldry ends at the Wall. (We can see that is not true - even though knights hang up their shields, those shields are taken down and buried with the Night's Watch brother when "his watch has ended." And people have nicknames such as Old Bear and Pomegranate that reflect their House sigil.) Maybe the highborn and knighted brothers jealously guard the last remnants of their elevated status and avoid bestowing honors on lower-born members of the group. Or maybe the designation of knighthood is considered irrelevant: steward, ranger and builder are the only designations that matter.

The only example I can think of where a knight was stripped of his knighthood was Joffrey making Ser Dontos a fool. And that didn't work out well for Joffrey.

[Julia H.]

Knighting a man of the Night's Watch may be seen as contradicting the vow (I shall ... win no glory), after all, what else would be the Ser title on the Wall but a form of "glory"? It wouldn't come with any lands, and it would not automatically mean a higher rank - while a higher rank can be won without this title. The only point would be to honour a member of the Night's Watch, and that just does not seem to happen (unless the member in question is already a nobleman and is backed by an important family, which means he may have achieved knighthood before coming to the Wall - if he is interested in the title at all).

On the other hand, the knighthood won on the Wall probably wouldn't be much appreciated by outsiders either. We know from the Dunk and Egg series, that knights with a questionable backstory and low social status were frowned upon and even rejected by society and their knighthood may not have been acknowledged at all..

   

[Universal Sword Donor]

Let's go to the text!

"Any knight can make a knight," said the scarecrow that was Beric Dondarrion, "and every man you see before you has felt a sword upon his shoulder. We are the forgotten fellowship."

"Ser Rolly," said the big man. "Rolly Duckfield. Any knight can make a knight, and Griff made me. And you, dwarf?"

"Hmpf." The man Plummer rubbed his nose. "Any knight can make a knight, it is true, though it is more customary to stand a vigil and be anointed by a septon before taking your vows. Were there any witnesses to your dubbing?"

"The lad has the truth of it," said Ser Lyonel Baratheon. "Do it, Ser Duncan. Any knight can make a knight."

Any knight can make a knight, and when Ser Perkin began dubbing every sellsword, thief, and butcher’s boy who flocked to Trystane’s ragged banner, men and boys appeared by the hundreds to pledge themselves to his cause.

 

I am going to guess that your scenario is plausible.

[cpg2016]

It's possible but unlikely.

For all that the Night's Watch is a professed meritocracy, it's quite clear that there is a great deal of social stratification there as well, and that a man's status before becoming a Brother plays a large part in their prospects once they join.  We hear that the LC's steward is usually a boy of high birth, and people like Waymar Royce, newly arrived to the Wall, are immediately put in command positions over grizzled veterans.  Moreover, look who are in leadership positions when Jon gets there - the first Ranger is a Stark, the First Steward is a Marsh (a Northern noble house), the Lord Commander is a Mormont, the commander of the Shadow Tower is a Mallister, the First Builder is a Yarwyck, and effective master-at-arms at Castle Black is a Thorne... these are all noble/knightly Houses.  Cotter Pyke is the only senior member of the Night's Watch to not be explicitly noble-born.

For a member of the Night's Watch to go around randomly knighting a bunch of thieves and rapists implicitly undermines the values of the noble/knightly class, and furthermore undermines the social structure of the Watch, which wants to have respectable upper-class men in positions of authority; diluting the value of knighthood means an implicit dilution of standing for high-ranking Sworn Brothers

[zandru]

55 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

For all that the Night's Watch is a professed meritocracy, it's quite clear that there is a great deal of social stratification there as well, and that a man's status before becoming a Brother plays a large part in their prospects once they join.

Well, that's possible. It's equally likely that mostly the noble born have the skills needed to rise. How many cutpurses or rapers can read and write? How many murderers are trained in sword and shield, horse and lance, military leadership and strategy? But if leadership positions are "reserved" for the well-born, this would be another strike against Lord Snow's promoting 'hos as his steward, wildlings as masters at arms, spearwives as "brothers", etc.

[Jon Fossoway]

Äny knight can knight a knight.  

 

[Curled Finger]

The fly in the ointment here is probably location of the Nights Watch.   North.   Where they don't joust or take to knighting much of anyone.   It's not their thing.   Some knights belong to orders, and that could prevent them from making more knights--if they needed to be approved by outsiders or take some auxiliary vow.    

I read once that the Nights Watch was based loosely on the Templars.   In that light the Nights Watch has its own vows and ceremonies and traditions.  Their vow, specifically, is essentially a knight's vow: 

 I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and ...

It's basically everything important that the Knights Code of Chivalry demands.   Be your better self.   Defend and protect the weak.  Be aware.  

To fear God and maintain His Church

To serve the liege lord in valour and faith

To protect the weak and defenceless

To give succour to widows and orphans

To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

To live by honour and for glory

To despise pecuniary reward

To fight for the welfare of all

To obey those placed in authority

To guard the honour of fellow knights

To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit

To keep faith

At all times to speak the truth

To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

To respect the honour of women

Never to refuse a challenge from an equal

Never to turn the back upon a foe

I'm posting this at the risk of the entire world taking the code points line by line.   Hopefully everyone will just note the code compare it to the vows and see the same similarities I do.   I realize there are degrees of applicability here.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Äny knight can knight a knight.  

 

Hodor

[Jaak]

It doesn´t even have to be random.

Ser Alliser Thorne is well-born and a legitimate knight pre-Watch.

Jon Snow was noble born and had extensive military training. Duly beating recruits older and bigger than him. As witnessed by ser Alliser.

If ser Alliser Thorne proposed to knight Jon Snow in public recognition that Jon Snow was a fully trained military professional in contrast to the partly trained common soldiers making up the rest of the recruits, and this fact should be acknowledged in making good use of Snow, how would that have been received?

Ser Alliser ended up not proposing this.

[Megorova]

Any knight can make a knight, but it won't change absolutely nothing for those people that will get this status, if they were not knighted prior joining the Night's Watch, and didn't have any experience of being actual knights. Because knights are valued for their battle experience, fighting abilities, what tournaments have they won, against whom did they fought (in tournaments and in duels), to whom did they served, who trained them, to what House did they belonged (either as family members, or as sworn shields, i.e. whether there are any influential, powerful or famous people among their acquaintances), what sort of background do they have, etc.

So it could be done, but there's no point in it. Because they will be knights only in name.

[cpg2016]

On 12/26/2017 at 4:14 PM, zandru said:

Well, that's possible. It's equally likely that mostly the noble born have the skills needed to rise. How many cutpurses or rapers can read and write? How many murderers are trained in sword and shield, horse and lance, military leadership and strategy? But if leadership positions are "reserved" for the well-born, this would be another strike against Lord Snow's promoting 'hos as his steward, wildlings as masters at arms, spearwives as "brothers", etc.

The fact that those positions are "reserved" is a matter of tradition and prejudice.  It's not a strike against Jon; what he's doing is instituting the theoretical meritocracy of the Watch in practice.

And yes, there are good reasons why leadership positions go to socially higher-ups.  But being the Lord Commanders steward doesn't require reading or writing, and is in fact a position in which the steward is explicitly being taught what he needs to know about command (presumably including reading and writing).  So obviously there should be no reason that literacy would impact that appointment, since learning to read would be a perfectly reasonable assumption fo the duties involved. And yet, Bowen Marsh insists that the position is usually one reserved for the highborn, indicating that these traditions are more a reflection of social snobbery and prejudice, and not practical concerns.

[Ckram]

I know we learned by this SSM that squirring doesn't imply in training for knighthood, and that Jon Snow squired for Jeor, althought Mormont was not a knight himself.

However, Ser Mallador Locke wasn't a Commander, but had a squire, Sweet Donnel Hill.

I think training to knighthood is the most likely reason Donnel squired for a knight who wasn't in any relevant post inside the NW.

By the way, the awekening of a knightly conscience would be one of the possible explanation of why Donnel didn't take part on the mutiny on Craster's Keep (when - I guess - Ser Mallador was already dead), although he initially plotted against Jeor (when Mallador was still alive).