Jump to content

Why is Jon so Attractive...


Corvo the Crow

Recommended Posts

I'm not sure Jon has much respect for women. He likes action girls, but he has disdain for traditionally feminine women (which I suppose is partly the result of his experience with Catelyn and, to a lesser extent, Sansa). But he is still better in this regard than many men of Westeros, and he is certainly far more comfortable around women than Stannis.

We should also keep in mind that Jon is young whereas stannis is a balding, middle-aged man. And Planetos seem to consider young teenagers to be very attractive (from 15 year old Dany who looks even younger than her age being "the most beautiful woman in the world" to sex symbol Loras Tyrell who looks like a tween pop star).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Actually, I don't see where the books indicate that Jon was at all attractive to women. Are you, perchance, looking at photos of Kit Harington?

This. We know that Jon is slender and had dark hair, but we have never actually had him described as being beautiful. Also, the only women whose POVs we've read about Jon is Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Cersei and Melisandre, and none of them describe him as being attractive. Arya and Sansa think of him as a brother, so they obviously don't find him attractive, Catelyn hates him, Cersei only thinks of him as being Ned Stark's bastard and Melisandre speaks to him only in a professional manner.

We also have to remember that Jon has spent almost the entire series at the Wall, where no women are allowed and when women do come to the Wall, only a handful of them speak to him and they only do it when necessary.

While Stannis may have been more attractive in his youth, he certainly isn't now; he is ageing rapidly and everyone agrees that he looks far older than his real age.

My personal theory about that is that Melisandre has done something to him, like cast a spell on him or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Actually, I don't see where the books indicate that Jon was at all attractive to women. Are you, perchance, looking at photos of Kit Harington?

Ygritte liked him and Val almost certainly does as well, and she could have her choice of a lot of high ranking guys. Possibly Melesandre also but who knows what is going on in her head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is Jon that attractive though? He has few interactions with women. Ygritt falls for him because of the way he 'stole' her upon their first encounter, and their subsequent plot is very convincing. Mel doesn't seem to find him "attractive" at all in her POV, though her behavior when we read Jon's POVs may suggest that. Val respects him, and sometimes seems flirtatious, but she might have several reasons to lead him on. Alys Kastark seems like a brave young woman happy to find a protector in a place of power, but she does not make her interactions with Jon about his supposed "attractiveness" - they are all about guaranteeing her own survival from someone she wants to trust (an old aquintance, Ned Stark's son, the LC of the NW, all pretty good qualifiers for a northern maid right?). Selyse despises Jon Snow. Her daughter seems warmer but she's a child. Spearwives in hardwin's tower don't seem that interested in the lord commander... he's not an specially attractive specimen, in my opinion. I've never read it that way, at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

He likes action girls, but he has disdain for traditionally feminine women

Where did you get that from? Disdain? He does say highborn girls of twelve are little more than children, but that's not a moral judgment, it's a practical one... when does he show disdain for women?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Where did you get that from? Disdain? He does say highborn girls of twelve are little more than children, but that's not a moral judgment, it's a practical one... when does he show disdain for women?

I don't have the books with me, but he shows this tendency a number of times. He calls Myrcella "insipid" for being a well-behaved little girl. He thinks Val is "a warrior princess, not some willowy creature brushing her hair in a castle". When he goes to Mole's town to recruit the wildlings, he invites non-fighting men to come to the Wall, but he tells the women that he is only looking for spearwives, warning them that he will not have "blushing maidens who want to be protected".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

He calls Myrcella "insipid" for being a well-behaved little girl.

I'll quote @The Fattest Leech here: it's called character development. He used to think that way when he was a sheltered fourteen-year-old, but he grows to see the difference. 

29 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

he invites non-fighting men to come to the Wall, but he tells the women that he is only looking for spearwives

That's true. But he is publically questioned on it by a small girl, and instead of just dismissing her, he immediately changes his mind and decides to also take in any girls above twelve willing to learn how to fight. 

The "blusing maidens" commend is indeed sexist, but I do believe "disdain" is too strong a word for Jon's reaction to women in general, gender-complaint behavior or not. Selyse is very gender-complaint and he doesn't like her, but doesn't think she is weak or stupid either. He thinks she's misguided. Melissandre is also very feminine and not a warrior at all, but Jon's suspicions about her have nothing to do with her being a woman. He is imbedded in a very sexist society, but routinely decides not to rely on steriotypes when making decisions and judging actions. 

When talking about Val, well, I think he wants her to be a warrior princess because that what he likes in a woman (see Arya and Ygritt), and he likes Val. Martin himself has told us in SSM that Val and Dalla aren't spearwives/warrior women. Val can defend herself, but the choice to see her as "lonely, lovely and lethal" is Jon's way of praising her, considering her a good match for himself, for she has the characteristics he appreciates in women he's attracted to. With that in mind, there would be nothing wrong with being "willowy creature brushing her hair in a castle", it's just not what he's attracted to... Well, at least that's how I read it. But I do see your point and will be paying closer attention to it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'll quote @The Fattest Leech here: it's called character development. He used to think that way when he was a sheltered fourteen-year-old, but he grows to see the difference. 

When talking about Val, well, I think he wants her to be a warrior princess because that what he likes in a woman (see Arya and Ygritt), and he likes Val. Martin himself has told us in SSM that Val and Dalla aren't spearwives/warrior women. Val can defend herself, but the choice to see her as "lonely, lovely and lethal" is Jon's way of praising her, considering her a good match for himself, for she has the characteristics he appreciates in women he's attracted to. Well, at least that's how I read it... 

The Myrcella comment alone would not be too problematic (like you say he was 14 and a little bratty, and he has grown out of it). While I think nowadays he wouldn't make a similar comment about a 7 year old girl, the Val comment leads me to believe that he continues to have contempt for traditionally feminine behavior/qualities (I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here).

58 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's true. But he is publically questioned on it by a small girl, and instead of just dismissing her, he immediately changes his mind and decides to also take in any girls above twelve willing to learn how to fight. 

 

I agree that he has no issue whatsoever with women fighting. But it doesn't make sense to tell them that he is only interested in their fighting ability, after he made a speech about how there's plenty of work even for non-fighting men. To me, this shows that Jon is dismissive of females who aren't action girls.

58 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:


I do believe "disdain" is too strong a word for Jon's reaction to women in general

Maybe it's not the right word. I meant disdain as in mild disdain, nothing extreme. He tends to see women as (gasp) people and sadly, that alone would make him more attractive than many, many westerosi men. Nevertheless, I do think he has a distaste for traditional feminity (which makes sense, given his experience with ladies).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Stannis completely despises women, while Jon has a deep respect for them, as much as possible in such a society. 

We see this time and time again. Since his first interactions with Arya, whom he gifts with a sword, who tells him "the woman is important too", up to his respect for the spearwives and his choice to admit untrained girls of twelve in the NW. 

Stannis on the other hand not only feels uncomfortable around women, he truly doesn't think them worthy. He refuses spearwives for his army, he doesn't acknowledge Asha as someone he should listen to, he shows no simpathy for his own daughter, he speaks of Alysanne Mormont as if she were a freak... 

It's hard to fall for a guy who looks down on you. 

Also, I must agree that while there are some similarities, they are not "more alike to one another than anyone in the books"

Well Asha is also ironborn so being a man of order and justice  the raider lifestyle Asha's people commit would probably get him to look past Asha even if she was a male. He's...distant I'd say towards his daughter but I would imagine even he would feel sorry for the girl's sad plight, and has  made clear if he were to die she is his heir

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When Jon was in Moletown with food for the residents and asking for volunteers, he wanted people who could fight or work. Men generally qualified, even the old or young ones. I think Jon knew by now that women were, ah "problemmatic" at the Wall among the reluctantly celibate Nights Watch brothers. I think Jon specifically asked for fighting women because (1) they could fight to help protect the Wall and (2) they could protect themselves. Not sexism, but a practical concern for the well-being of the women. He had no extra men to protect blushing maids, and didn't want to inadvertently establish thriving whorehouses. It was a matter of military discipline.

Val may have not been a "spearwife", but she shared the inclination and ability to defend herself with knife and sword, if need be. Pretty much like all the freefolk women. Calling her a "warrior" need not have indicated that Jon insisted ALL his women be chainmail-bikini-clad fightin' wimmen. Rather, Jon had come to understand the culture.

As for his judging Myrcella as "insipid", she was a little girly-girl when they were both at Winterfell. Never said much to indicate any particular intelligence, sat around sewing with the other girls, seemed to be all pretty clothing and manners and little else. Also, he wouldn't have had more than one or two interactions with her at best, as he was the "banished from sight bastard." Maybe Jon picked up on Arya's descriptions. I wouldn't condemn him for it.

That Myrcella looks much different later in the series is no surprise. Children develop horrifically fast in the zero to 16 range. A year is an eternity. Particularly in Westeros, where people either grow up fast, or not at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The decision not to bring women from Moles town to Castle Black had less to do with distain and more to do with protecting them. untrained women are more likely to be attacked at the Nights Watch then untrained men are. Remember in ADWD when Jon was taking Wildling hostages and two young girls try disguising themselves as boys to come along, Jon tells Tormond about another girl that tried disguising herself as a boy to take the black saying her song was Pretty but what happened to her wasn't.

I think when it come to comparing Jon and Stannis is Jon at least attempts to make a good first impression whereas Stannis tends to be the type to not have time for stupid people, and he then sees everyone as stupid until he deems you otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

The decision not to bring women from Moles town to Castle Black had less to do with distain and more to do with protecting them. untrained women are more likely to be attacked at the Nights Watch then untrained men are. Remember in ADWD when Jon was taking Wildling hostages and two young girls try disguising themselves as boys to come along, Jon tells Tormond about another girl that tried disguising herself as a boy to take the black saying her song was Pretty but what happened to her wasn't.

I think when it come to comparing Jon and Stannis is Jon at least attempts to make a good first impression whereas Stannis tends to be the type to not have time for stupid people, and he then sees everyone as stupid until he deems you otherwise.

This kinda irked me on how Jon seemed a little too dismissive of when there'd inevitablely be rapes/rape attempts by his brothers on spear-wives by incorporating them in. Yes he tries to segregate them to a degree but his notion of the cost of one brother won't outweigh the dozens of female warriors gained is a little short-sighted. Obviously, the woman tried seducing the proud brother and she couldn't she murdered the honorable man a lot of brothers will whisper. 

Also I found Tormund's reaction to the story...peculiar to say the least. I mean he's from a culture where rape is acceptable. Tormund himself recounts having raped a woman who'd give him sons to Jon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where are all the unreasonable Stannis is the Mannis fans who wouldn't have 1 word of this blasphemy?   

When I think of Jon I think of Arya, who is described as having a long face.  They have dark hair and grey eyes, I think.   Yah, that's not a lot to go on, but we know Arya wasn't really worried about her looks, too.    I imagine Jon is sort of plain and pale with dark hair and eyes to make him look pasty.   However, I know what Kit Harrington looks like so no matter what I do, Jon will always have curly hair.  

I think Jon and Stannis just have different agendas.  Stannis doesn't like women.   He considers them weak and burdensome.   Even Mel, his right hand gal, got left home during the Battle of the Blackwater.   Stannis is the Mannis.   His way or the Highway.   He is black or white--nothing in between.  He's way too busy to worry about what some silly woman thinks.  To his credit, Stannis stayed with Selyse after her mustache grew out.   

I don't see any similarities between Jon & Stannis.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Also I found Tormund's reaction to the story...peculiar to say the least. I mean he's from a culture where rape is acceptable. Tormund himself recounts having raped a woman who'd give him sons to Jon. 

 

It is a bit weird. Sometimes the chapters will make it seem like Wildling rape culture is strong but in other chapters it just sounds like a big no-no. I think stealing and raping might be like a Westeros wedding where once you're married you get carried off and bedded by several different people before your new spouse. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

... whereas Stannis is not?

 

Why women are attracted to Jon has been discussed many times before but I have never seen a comparison between Jon and Stannis, two persons more alike to one another in their character than any other two people in the series.

 

It is hard to miss but below a quote anyway

But somehow Jon gets the attention of the ladies and isn't (too much) uncomfortable with it whereas Stannis neither gets attention nor is he comfortable, even around his own wife. Why?

I quite frankly pictured him as average because he's seen as s carbon copy of ned whose been described not looking particularly noteworthy by even Catelyn. I don't think he's beautiful like Jaimie or Loras would be nor traditionally handsome like Robert would be described in his younger days. He's average. I mean there's one conversation with Tormund and another wildling who asks if Jon is Tormund's daughter which I initially mistook for them thinking Jon pretty but now I realize Jon simply isn't the idealized version of what a man in free folk culture or really Westeroes in general.  Completely unrelated(sorta)  but now I'm wondering if Lyanna herself was a beauty? I recently finished reading this fascinating book series called lightbringer by Brent weeks, in two powerful godlike magical brothers fight; the reported cause? A woman. The woman is truthfully pretty but as rumors of her being the cause she's become the most beautiful thing in the world.I know it's all subjective but I wonder if there some embellishing on the looks department as the stories of the girl(Lyanna) who caused the rebellion that overthrew the dragons, had to be a beauty why else would anyone go to such limits for her? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's my belief that Stannis suffers from a social disorder. Middle child syndrome on top of whatever else. I also think that watching his parents die might have had a rather large effect on him.

Then there is Proudwing and Ghost. Ghost was the runt of the litter who grew to be as strong or stronger then the rest of his littermates.  Proudwing was injured and Stannis chose to nurse him back to health, however, unlike Ghost, he did not grow to be as strong as other Goshawks. Proudwing and Stannis both became laughing stocks of the Castle because of this and Stannis does as his uncle tells him and gives up on Proudwing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think wildling women have any real reason of finding him attractive. He is a crow and a switched sides by killing a fellow crow. Besides, he is a bastard, a natural son of a westerosi noble, which I take are not particuarily well liked north of the Wall. The same reason, being a bastard, might have something to do with him south of the Wall. They are displaced members of society in an otherwise rigid one. The only woman who actually looks at him with other eyes is Ygritte. That's maybe as romantic George can get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, he's not exactly got women throwing themselves at him and the relationships he has with the one or two women who do (Ygritte and possibly Val is well on the way) aren't the healthiest.

I think Jon's attractiveness compared to someone like Stannis is his willingness to live and learn. There's a reason why Stannis has a reputation for being like iron -- it's because it takes a lot for him to see things from another's point of view. While Jon got to the Wall, he was a high and mighty little toerag because he still wished to cling to what little privilege he had as a noble bastard. However, once he realised how to put himself on the side of the lower-born members of his cohort, he learned a lesson. Now, he takes someone like Satin as his personal steward despite others in the Night's Watch looking down at him as a former prostitute and had made friends and allies of wildlings. The bottom line is that Jon shows a willingness to alter his outlook based on information he is given. It's what I like about him. Though his changes are subtle, his character growth is natural.

Physically, I'm not sure if Jon is supposed to be all that. He's essentially Ned 2.0 complete with both having a sullen look about them. While there is never any real indicator that Ned wasn't a relatively handsome man, he was mud compared to his taller, sexier older brother Brandon. So, he's probably passing attractive with most his qualities coming from his inner good and well-meaning nature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...