Why is Jon so Attractive...

[Pikachu101]

Well he won't be on Robb's level but I'm sure he'll be hot, Rhaegar Taragryen's his father after all! 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Where are all the unreasonable Stannis is the Mannis fans who wouldn't have 1 word of this blasphemy?   

Checking in here, sorry for the late notice.  Just a friendly, casual reminder that Stannis in fact remains the Mannis, the King who cared, the one true King of Westeros.

This thread seems to have several different branches and isn't entirely coherent to follow, so I'm not sure what I can add to it, but if the intent is to discuss personalities rather than looks and how the majority of readers are more attracted to Jon than Stannis (as opposed to comparing how in-universe characters perceive them), then Jon having a POV whereas Stannis does not is a big part of it.  Jon would look awfully opportunistic and perhaps morally misguided if we saw him attempting to leave the NW, killing Qhorin and turning to the Wildlings, then turning back to the NW, rallying people to go save his sister, etc without getting his internal commentary.  Probably not as bad as Stannis burning his in-laws, but yeah, not good.  I do think that Jon and Stannis have many similarities - motivated by honor and duty, conflicted when faced with moral dilemmas where there is no clear cut or obvious choice that is the most honorable/just, suspicious and skeptical, prideful, and carrying huge chips on their shoulders.  I imagine we will see them working together in the fight against the Others, and Stannis' flaws may lead to his demise whereas Jon will be able to overcome his.  I definitely would enjoy reading a long post comparing these two characters as I do believe they will be the leaders in the fight against the Others while Danerys/Aegon/Tommen or Euron (or some other Lannister/Tyrell/Greyjoy claimant) simultaneous battle for the Iron Throne in the South, with the stories merging when, after Stannis dies, Jon secures Danerys' support to come north (by this point it won't be that far north) and defeat the Others.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Checking in here, sorry for the late notice.  Just a friendly, casual reminder that Stannis in fact remains the Mannis, the King who cared, the one true King of Westeros.

This thread seems to have several different branches and isn't entirely coherent to follow, so I'm not sure what I can add to it, but if the intent is to discuss personalities rather than looks and how the majority of readers are more attracted to Jon than Stannis (as opposed to comparing how in-universe characters perceive them), then Jon having a POV whereas Stannis does not is a big part of it.  Jon would look awfully opportunistic and perhaps morally misguided if we saw him attempting to leave the NW, killing Qhorin and turning to the Wildlings, then turning back to the NW, rallying people to go save his sister, etc without getting his internal commentary.  Probably not as bad as Stannis burning his in-laws, but yeah, not good.  I do think that Jon and Stannis have many similarities - motivated by honor and duty, conflicted when faced with moral dilemmas where there is no clear cut or obvious choice that is the most honorable/just, suspicious and skeptical, prideful, and carrying huge chips on their shoulders.  I imagine we will see them working together in the fight against the Others, and Stannis' flaws may lead to his demise whereas Jon will be able to overcome his.  I definitely would enjoy reading a long post comparing these two characters as I do believe they will be the leaders in the fight against the Others while Danerys/Aegon/Tommen or Euron (or some other Lannister/Tyrell/Greyjoy claimant) simultaneous battle for the Iron Throne in the South, with the stories merging when, after Stannis dies, Jon secures Danerys' support to come north (by this point it won't be that far north) and defeat the Others.

I do agree with most of your remarks. I was under the impression the OP was about in-story charisma and "attractiveness", speacially sexual attraction. My two main points would be 

1. Jon is not that attractive, really. He's avarage. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing.

2. Stannis has only contempt for women, it's very hard for a gal to find such a guy attractive, and plus he's not charismatic or easy on the eyes either... 

so there. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

I do agree with most of your remarks. I was under the impression the OP was about in-story charisma and "attractiveness", speacially sexual attraction. My two main points would be 

1. Jon is not that attractive, really. He's avarage. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing.

2. Stannis has only contempt for women, it's very hard for a gal to find such a guy attractive, and plus he's not charismatic or easy on the eyes either... 

so there. 

Physical attractiveness was never what I had in mind. Posted as much in the previous page but people still go for physical attractiveness. I really should have worded the first post better.

[Lady Dacey]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Physical attractiveness was never what I had in mind. Posted as much in the previous page but people still go for physical attractiveness. I really should have worded the first post better.

 But are you talking about in universe (as in, people like/believe/wanna follow) or in the  fandom? If we're talking fandom than definitely the fact that Jon is major character with his own POV makes a difference. And again, is Jon that attractive, in universe? Loads of people hate him... 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

LOL @Lady Dacey is your avatar a vagina flipping the bird?  Because that is hilarious LOL.  I really don't see how it could be anything else LOL.

[Lady Dacey]

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

LOL @Lady Dacey is your avatar a vagina flipping the bird?  Because that is hilarious LOL.  I really don't see how it could be anything else LOL.

It's a female reproductive system. It does not include the vulva (the external organ, usually erroneously called 'vagina') but cervix, uterus, tubes sans ovaries, as if gesturing with the middle finger, yes, that's my avatar. Think of it as feminist 'fuck you'. I've been complimented on it 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Lady Dacey said:

It's a female reproductive system. It does not include the vulva (the external organ, usually erroneously called 'vagina') but the actual vagina, uterus, tubes and ovaries, as if gesturing a "fuck you" with the middle finger, yes, that's my avatar. I've been complimented on it 

Word!

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 But are you talking about in universe (as in, people like/believe/wanna follow) or in the  fandom? If we're talking fandom than definitely the fact that Jon is major character with his own POV makes a difference. And again, is Jon that attractive, in universe? Loads of people hate him... 

In universe. I can't think of any female characters that outright hate him. Not even male characters have hate for him excepting a few that feel wronged by him, or threatened by his actions. Two such examples could be Chett, who lost his comfy position in the watch to Sam due to Jon's actions and Alliser Thorne( a man "disliked" by most brother's he trained) whose  authority was challenged by Jon several times. We even see Jon take physical action against him when he was just a new brother, trying to kill him.

 

 

[the trees have eyes]

I'm still not sure what this thread is about

On 26/12/2017 at 1:25 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

But somehow Jon gets the attention of the ladies and isn't (too much) uncomfortable with it whereas Stannis neither gets attention nor is he comfortable, even around his own wife. Why?

 

On 26/12/2017 at 8:54 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

when I meant attractive, I wasn't meaning youth and physical looks. If anything, in his youth Stannis must have been far more handsome than Jon is

Stannis is bitter, married, balding, dispossessed, worn down by his troubles, notoriously rigid, humourless, uncompromising and disinterested in his wife's bedroom.  He is not particularly charming or charismatic and certainly makes no attempt to win people over to his cause, instead relying on his status and his right to demand his due.  It's hard to see what would be appealing to a woman here or that these tendencies would not have been apparent even as a teen where insetad of romancing the ladies he would be withdrawn, awkward and prickly rather than confident, bold and exciting.

Jon on the otherhand is not a babe magnet either.  He has one relationship with a wildling girl who was impressed that he spared her life, killed the dangerous Qhorin Halfhand, was the Bastard son of the Lord of Winterfell, carried a Valyrian steel sword and was a warg with a large white direwolf following him around.  It's easy to see how he would be exciting to her with all these exotic characteristics and bold deeds so outside her normal experience.  He did make a pretty darn good first impression I think we can agree and this was exciting enough for her to overlook his average looks and lack of sexual experience (or sexual initiative).

Alys Karstark is simply desparate and fleeing to whomever she hopes will aid her and Jon is the last chicken in the shop; Mel is simply using him as he does have power, both poitical as LC of the NW and innate through being a warg and thorugh his blood (though she does not understand the why of that last part); equally Val knows he is the one man at the Wall who will treat her people and her person better than the others will and she may have some respect for him, perhaps even regard, but is more likely playing her cards to get the best for her people.

On 26/12/2017 at 11:20 PM, Joy Hill said:

I don't have the books with me, but he shows this tendency a number of times. He calls Myrcella "insipid" for being a well-behaved little girl. He thinks Val is "a warrior princess, not some willowy creature brushing her hair in a castle". When he goes to Mole's town to recruit the wildlings, he invites non-fighting men to come to the Wall, but he tells the women that he is only looking for spearwives, warning them that he will not have "blushing maidens who want to be protected".

I think this is slightly overcooked.  Does he personally prefer "action girls" like Ygritte or Val over archetypal ladies like Selyse, or have more in common with boisterous wild child Arya rather than dutiful likes-to-embroider Sansa?  Sure, but that's preference rather than disdain.  His reaction to Myrcella is all about his resentment at being banished from the top table and Princess Myrcella having a childish crush on future Lord of Winterfell Robb (sibling rivalry and jealousy), not about disregard for women who don't conform to a certain type of behaviour.  It's pretty hard not to be impressed by Val, she is confident and capable and goes off on her own to locate Tormund; it is indeed hard to see, say, Selyse doing something like that but contrasting the wildling culture with Westerosi chivalry and respecting Val's skillset doesn't make him disdain Alys Karstark for running to him for help.  As for the spearwives I think another poster pointed out that he was open to accepting girls over 12 as long as they were prepared to fight - he is after all Lord Commander of a military organisation that is entirely male and partly criminal so he neither wants "useless mouths to feed", nor any more brave Dany Flints but he is most definitely prepared to take any woman willing and able to fight.

[Joy Hill]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think this is slightly overcooked.  Does he personally prefer "action girls" like Ygritte or Val over archetypal ladies like Selyse, or have more in common with boisterous wild child Arya rather than dutiful likes-to-embroider Sansa?  Sure, but that's preference rather than disdain.  His reaction to Myrcella is all about his resentment at being banished from the top table and Princess Myrcella having a childish crush on future Lord of Winterfell Robb (sibling rivalry and jealousy), not about disregard for women who don't conform to a certain type of behaviour.  It's pretty hard not to be impressed by Val, she is confident and capable and goes off on her own to locate Tormund; it is indeed hard to see, say, Selyse doing something like that but contrasting the wildling culture with Westerosi chivalry and respecting Val's skillset doesn't make him disdain Alys Karstark for running to him for help.  As for the spearwives I think another poster pointed out that he was open to accepting girls over 12 as long as they were prepared to fight - he is after all Lord Commander of a military organisation that is entirely male and partly criminal so he neither wants "useless mouths to feed", nor any more brave Dany Flints but he is most definitely prepared to take any woman willing and able to fight.

It would be completely fine if it was only a preference, but the fact that he can't simply admire Val without making a contemptuous comment about women who don't fit the same mold as her (in a "not like the other girls" spirit) is a little problematic. He likes Alys because she conforms to the type of woman he prefers (assertive, feisty), but if she had behaved more like, say, Jeyne Westerling, I suspect he might have had dismissive thoughts about her and ladies in general (which doesn't mean he would have done anything bad to her).

About the non-fighting women issue : yes, like you and other posters have said, Jon might simply not be willing to accept them because they wouldn't be able to defend themselves against rape, which is actually very sensible (I still dislike the "I have no need of blushing maidens" comment though).

He doesn't have huge issues with women, but he's not wholly free of them.

[the trees have eyes]

37 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

It would be completely fine if it was only a preference, but the fact that he can't simply admire Val without making a contemptuous comment about women who don't fit the same mold as her (in a "not like the other girls" spirit) is a little problematic. He likes Alys because she conforms to the type of woman he prefers (assertive, feisty), but if she had behaved more like, say, Jeyne Westerling, I suspect he might have had dismissive thoughts about her and ladies in general (which doesn't mean he would have done anything bad to her).

About the non-fighting women issue : yes, like you and other posters have said, Jon might simply not be willing to accept them because they wouldn't be able to defend themselves against rape, which is actually very sensible (I still dislike the "I have no need of blushing maidens" comment though).

He doesn't have huge issues with women, but he's not wholly free of them.

Actually it is completely fine and Jon does not have issues with women.  He is simply judging who is more useful in a military or survival situation.  If he wants to contrast Val with a nameless archetypal Soutern (kneeler) aristocrat - in his own mind and not demean any such nameless woman (or group of women) out loud - that is surely ok?  If we are reduced to scouring a character's thoughts for any hint of something we could take umbrage at because their actions, words and general behaviour display no prejudice or lack of respect then we really don't have a problem to confront.   If you were designing a flawless (and 100% politically correct - by contemporary standards) character you might have to keep their internal monolgue silent if this kind of thing really provokes criticism.

[Joy Hill]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Actually it is completely fine and Jon does not have issues with women.  He is simply judging who is more useful in a military or survival situation.  If he wants to contrast Val with a nameless archetypal Soutern (kneeler) aristocrat - in his own mind and not demean any such nameless woman (or group of women) out loud - that is surely ok?  If we are reduced to scouring a character's thoughts for any hint of something we could take umbrage at because their actions, words and general behaviour display no prejudice or lack of respect then we really don't have a problem to confront.   If you were designing a flawless (and 100% politically correct - by contemporary standards) character you might have to keep their internal monolgue silent if this kind of thing really provokes criticism.

When he makes his comment about "some willowy creature" he is not wondering how useful a lady would be for the NW, he is thinking about how admirable he finds Val in contrast to the contemptible feminine women.

You're right, none of us should be arrested for our thoughts alone, or we'd all be in jail. But since GRRM gave us a window into the charcters' thoughts, it's okay to analyse them (for example, Tyrion does nothing against Masha Heddle, but the fact that he considers her death to be "justice" bothers me). I don't expect characters to be flawless, but discussing a character's flaws can be interesting.

[the trees have eyes]

18 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

When he makes his comment about "some willowy creature" he is not wondering how useful a lady would be for the NW, he is thinking about how admirable he finds Val in contrast to the contemptible feminine women.

You're right, none of us should be arrested for our thoughts alone, or we'd all be in jail. But since GRRM gave us a window into the charcters' thoughts, it's okay to analyse them (for example, Tyrion does nothing against Masha Heddle, but the fact that he considers her death to be "justice" bothers me). I don't expect characters to be flawless, but discussing a character's flaws can be interesting.

Yeah, I just disagree.  I don't think Jon is a sexist who looks down on women as inferior unless they can fight as well as a man - that just isn't there in his character.  I think the bolded part in particular is you projecting thoughts and prejudices on to him that he doesn't have.  People used to a life of ease tend not to deal with a life of hardship particularly well.  People like the spearwives or wildlings like Val who, although not spearwives, still have survival skills and can fight have a huge advantage here in terms of experience and that should be non-controversial.  There is nothing in Jon's interaction with Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Alys Karstark, Gilly, Dalla, Sansa, Catelyn that betrays some prejudice against or disdain for non-sword-wielding women.  The fact that he was close to wild child Arya, had a relationship with Ygritte (not a spearwife but still an "outdoorsy-type") and respects Val for her capabilities is all well and good but it does not denigrate the others or indicate some latent prejudice.  Particularly as a military commnader who wants messangers to go beyond the wall and search for bands of Wildlings or enlist to fight the Others and their corpse legions he wants fighters and skilled outdoors types, it's recruitment of the appropriate type and yes physique has a bearing on that as well as experience and skillset. 

[Joy Hill]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yeah, I just disagree.  I don't think Jon is a sexist who looks down on women as inferior unless they can fight as well as a man - that just isn't there in his character.  I think the bolded part in particular is you projecting thoughts and prejudices on to him that he doesn't have.  People used to a life of ease tend not to deal with a life of hardship particularly well.  People like the spearwives or wildlings like Val who, although not spearwives, still have survival skills and can fight have a huge advantage here in terms of experience and that should be non-controversial.  There is nothing in Jon's interaction with Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Alys Karstark, Gilly, Dalla, Sansa, Catelyn that betrays some prejudice against or disdain for non-sword-wielding women.  The fact that he was close to wild child Arya, had a relationship with Ygritte (not a spearwife but still an "outdoorsy-type") and respects Val for her capabilities is all well and good but it does not denigrate the others or indicate some latent prejudice.  Particularly as a military commnader who wants messangers to go beyond the wall and search for bands of Wildlings or enlist to fight the Others and their corpse legions he wants fighters and skilled outdoors types, it's recruitment of the appropriate type and yes physique has a bearing on that as well as experience and skillset. 

For me, in the "willowy creature" comment, he is pitting two different categories of women (that he created in his mind) against each other, and contemptuously thinks that one of them is inferior (and it's unrelated to how useful they would be to the NW), so he is denigrating women. I don't think it's a very big deal, all he does is put down women in his head, but it's not nice. It's the equivalent of thinking "she is a real lady, not some creature who tries to be as fierce as a man".

But I guess we interpret him differently, which is fine.

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

For me, in the "willowy creature" comment, he is pitting two different categories of women (that he created in his mind) against each other, and contemptuously thinks that one of them is inferior (and it's unrelated to how useful they would be to the NW), so he is denigrating women. I don't think it's a very big deal, all he does is put down women in his head, but it's not nice. It's the equivalent of thinking "she is a real lady, not some creature who tries to be as fierce as a man".

But I guess we interpret him differently, which is fine.

I don't think he thinks contemptuously of any woman though, at any particular point or at the point you are indicating.  There's no doubt that Val is able to carry out this mission in a way that some nameless Westerosi princess or highborn lady would not.  The expression is horses for courses.  It's a shame there wasn't a ball so we could contrast his thoughts about the spearwives with those on some "proper" ladies as I think you would find his thoughts about the spearwives looking out of place, or the thought of them dancing gracefully to be amusing or faintly ridiculous, would balance out his thoughts on southern ladies or willowy creatures being useful (useless) in battle or survival situations.

We're in his head since early in AGOT, I genuinely don't see this contempt / mild disdain for "feminine" women that you are suggesting.  I think you are projecting some of our current societal trends and discussions into the text but I think he does a good job of accepting and valuing people for who they are, Sam and Satin being a good example of how he values people who don't conform to a particular type.  Now if only he had some willowy creatures he could make use of we could judge him more accurately.  If he refused to make use of their skills - we might assume Household Management, in the same way he sent Sam off to become a maester and made Satin his steward - or did not value them for doing so efficiently then we would have something to talk about.

[Tagganaro]

I don't think of Jon as physically attractive at all, I don't think he is written to be that way.  However, take a young boy/man of average attractiveness, add Stark blood, give him this awesome direwolf companion, add a facial scar that shows toughness in battle, put him around a bunch of ugly sullen men in the Night's Watch, and then finally give him a position of extreme power and suddenly a man of average attractiveness becomes much more attractive to the women around him.  

I do think what we see from both Val and Alys is flirting, although as has been discussed it's tough to know whether the flirting is genuine or whether both of them are desperate, like Melisandre, to get in on the Lord Commander's good side and manipulate his power to their own ends.  I'd say there's definitely a little bit of both going on.  I think Alys sees Jon as her savior and maybe also sees him as a really eligible bachelor that marrying could improve her situation dramatically...she was bound to develop attraction under the circumstances she arrived at the Wall under and how Jon saved her from them.  She's now marrying this unfamiliar Thenn guy and probably longs for the familiarity of Jon.

With Val I do think there is legitimate attraction both ways.  While we don't know that Val conforms to wildling customs in a similar way to Ygritte (IIRC Val is described as having a number of boy toys/"pets" when Jon first meets her in Mance's tent which is pretty much the polar opposite of Ygritte's more patriarchal-based experience of being "stolen"), I do think that Jon probably "stole" Val in a similar way to how Ygritte views it.  Except cut out the murder of Ygritte's soldier companion and substitute an act of compassion by Jon sticking with Dalla and "protecting" her and Val while Val delivered the baby.  Then you factor in Val's imprisonment, probably only spending time around Stannis and other assorted ugly older men who only view Val as a princess in a tower, and contrast that with Jon freeing her from her imprisonment to go find Tormund, saving her wildlings in the process, and actually engaging with Val through banter and treating her like a fellow human being rather than a piece of property, and I would say Val is probably attracted to Jon.  

We do also see Shireen blush when Jon talks to her...does that indicate attractiveness on Jon's part or just show how cloistered and mistreated Shireen usually is?  I'd say probably the latter.  Shireen has rarely, if ever, even been around young men in positions of power who are single.  It's probably even rarer for that young man to treat Shireen respectfully and not be immediatedly disgusted by her facial disfiguration, as we see Stannis/Selyse constantly mistreat her for it.  Jon showing her the slightest bit of chivalry/courtesy would probably be cause for her to blush.  

[Corvo the Crow]

Does Val start her flirting only after Jon becomes the LC or it goes before that?

After all, he stole her a few times without even knowing. Like that time he says her to get inside with sword in hand, keeping others out. Or when she asks about it(after he becomes LC), he says that Wall killed Jarl but time and again he says Wall is his

On Melisandre, I have never noticed her showing any attention to Jon other than due to his position.

Alys Karstark is another mystery; before she set out, was she aware of Jon was elected as LC? After all, They may not had the time to notify people before Alys escaped Karhold, or even if they notified before this, she may not have learned this, she doesn't have any reason to immediately learn that Jon has become LC and her relatives who keep her don't have any reason to say "hey, so honorable the Ned's bastard is LC now, you may want to try if you want to escape from us, cause, you know men are men vows are words and words are wind and all that."

[DrowtheOneandOnly]

he isnt handsome, he's supposed to be average (maybe above while growing) but nothing more. Being Rhaegar's son means nothing. He could have taken a lot more physical traits from his mother than his father. Lyanna was beautiful in her own way but not traditionnaly attractive, also a lot people are saying that she is nothing extraordinary.  

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, DrowtheOneandOnly said:

he isnt handsome, he's supposed to be average (maybe above while growing) but nothing more. Being Rhaegar's son means nothing. He could have taken a lot more physical traits from his mother than his father.

 

And?

 

22 minutes ago, DrowtheOneandOnly said:

 

Lyanna was beautiful in her own way but not traditionnaly attractive, also a lot people are saying that she is nothing extraordinary.  

Care to back that up w/ some evidence?