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Why is Jon so Attractive...


Corvo the Crow

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If the writer wanted us to imagine Jon as physically handsome on the level of Loras or Renly or Jaime or the young Robert, he would have found a way to tell us. Even Cat (for example), when thinking of Jon, could have a thought like "on top of everything else, the boy was evidently growing up to be more than usually attractive, which didn't help matters, making her think of how much more beautiful the boy's mother could have been than she was" - but we never have any indication of Jon's special handsome looks (or the opposite). Sure, it is entirely possible (even likely) that this is one of the things GRRM leaves to the reader's imagination, probably meaning that it's not an important issue either way.

Yes, there are women attracted to Jon, Ygritte definitely, Val probably. Still, physical beauty is not the only way a man can be attractive. Romantic, young teenage girls, like Sansa and Jeyne in AGoT, will go wild when they see someone looking like Loras or (the original) Beric, all shining armour and gallant manners, but a more mature woman will be attracted to something more than mere physical charm. Extraordinary beauty will be noticed, of course, but there are many other qualities that can make a man attractive, which is, by the way, something GRRM seems to observe in connection with women. Even though Jon notices that Ygritte is not a special beauty, he is attracted to her smile,  to her voice and to her liveliness and independence. The same is true in the case of men: It is possible for a girl to be attracted by the way someone looks at her, by his eyes or by his smile or by his voice (etc.) alone, regardless of his overall appearance, while the same features may not even be noticed by another woman. Personality, charisma, the "inner fire", the way a man makes a woman feel, shared values and interests have more to do with lasting attraction than the beauty of one's physical features. 

If we talk about physical appearances, I don't see the point in comparing Jon and Stannis. They probably attract different kinds of women, but too-soon aging Stannis with his misogyny and lacking all personal charm or kindness will predictably be less popular with women than Jon Snow, even though he is a king (of some sort). Comparing their personalities to see both the similarities and differences and analysing the uneasy but ultimately working relationship between them would be really interesting though. 

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24 minutes ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I am not a fan of Jon and Daenerys becoming romantically involved either, but the show only confirmed what the books have been hinting at for years. I am sure that it will be written much better in the books, at least. It was extremely off putting on the show. 

Daenerys dreams of a lover and Jon seems to fit the bill, here:

Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow (Daenerys II, ASOS)

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. (Melisandre, ADWD)

Daenerys has....well, lets say a peculiar taste in men, but I am sure that she will find Jon attractive enough. 

There are a lot of things changed from book to show, even becoming exact opposites like a certain "castle" saved by a certain someone in the books causing it's vassals to aid the savior changed to that said "castle" having been saved by the actual saviors enemy and that house taking no sides or a certain character who gave up his life in order to save another's life in the books being still alive in the show with the characther he saved being dead. So if show gives us say, Dany and Jon as lovers, then I'll bet GRRM will do the opposite and they'll become bitter enemies or one will betray the other.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Who is interested in Jon who doesn’t stand to benefit in some significant way? I can’t think of anyone off hand.

Yeah, if there’s an election of sorts between Jon and Stannis, Jon would win the “guy you’d rather have a beer with” vote. But given Stannis that’s not really saying much. I’m kind of wait and see on Jon at this point and Stannis too seems to be evolving. GRRM said Jon would be darker and the set up for him is quite dark. I can see myself preferring Stannis’ personality in some possible outcomes. We’ll see. I hope.

 

 

Ygritte was, for starters. I doubt she heard he is Ned Stark's son and immediately came to the conclusion "This is The Stark's son, I must bed him so we can use him to our benefit."

 
Quote

 

Tormund shook his shaggy head. "What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don't want her?"
"Steal? I never . . ."
"You did," said Tormund. "You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?"
 
...
 
Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."
"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."
"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

 

 
Alys, may also be included into the list, after she is safe from the other branch of Karstarks and has no more benefit.
 
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21 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, there are women attracted to Jon, Ygritte definitely, Val probably. Still, physical beauty is not the only way a man can be attractive. Romantic, young teenage girls, like Sansa and Jeyne in AGoT, will go wild when they see someone looking like Loras or (the original) Beric, all shining armour and gallant manners, but a more mature woman will be attracted to something more than mere physical charm. Extraordinary beauty will be noticed, of course, but there are many other qualities that can make a man attractive, which is, by the way, something GRRM seems to observe in connection with women. Even though Jon notices that Ygritte is not a special beauty, he is attracted to her smile,  to her voice and to her liveliness and independence. The same is true in the case of men: It is possible for a girl to be attracted by the way someone looks at her, by his eyes or by his smile or by his voice (etc.) alone, regardless of his overall appearance, while the same features may not even be noticed by another woman. Personality, charisma, the "inner fire", the way a man makes a woman feel, shared values and interests have more to do with lasting attraction than the beauty of one's physical features. 

Exactly the kinds of thing I intented to be discussed.

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Also, there is a pattern in the books when it comes to physical appeal and temperament. Characters that are sombre in personality, tend to be regarded as uninspiring, if not unattractive. (unless, you are Rhaegar, of course). 

Ned:   

Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages (Catelyn V, ASOS)

"Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me." (Catelyn VII, ACOK)

Stannis: 

Maester Cressen blinked. Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don't you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most. (prologue, ACOK)

"Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert . . . and as they have never loved me." (prologue, ACOK)

Quentyn: 

Frog, the squire, was the youngest of the three, and the least impressive, a solemn, stocky lad, brown of hair and eye. His face was squarish, with a high forehead, heavy jaw, and broad nose. The stubble on his cheeks and chin made him look like a boy trying to grow his first beard.(Daenerys VII, ADWD)

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. (The Discarded Knight, ADWD)

Jon is never labeled as being plain or physically unappealing, but he does have the sullen label attached. 

The bastard was a sullen boy, quick to sense a slight, jealous of Theon's high birth and Robb's regard for him. (Theon I, ACOK)

He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away (Tyrion II, AGOT)

I danced with you and your brother both. He was very courteous and said that I danced beautifully. You were sullen. My father said that was to be expected in a bastard.(Jon IX, ADWD)

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ygritte was, for starters. I doubt she heard he is Ned Stark's son and immediately came to the conclusion "This is The Stark's son, I must bed him so we can use him to our benefit."

 
 
Alys, may also be included into the list, after she is safe from the other branch of Karstarks and has no more benefit.
 

Yeah, she finds out almost right away. It's really unbelievable to me that ~20 year old Ygritte is reduced to the level of 11 year old boy crazy Sansa here and she isn't at all thinking of how getting close to Jon might save a lot of lives in the ice zombie apocalypse. (Not to say her feelings for Jon weren't sincere eventually). The books are exactly about political ploys and manipulation and no one has more incentive to engage in this than the wildlings at this point. All the same, Ygritte's interest in Jon doesn't say anything about his looks beyond that he's probably not drooling/malformed/smelly/has rotty teeth/etc...

ACOK Jon VI

"I'm Jon Snow."

She flinched. "An evil name."

"A bastard name," he said. "My father was Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell."

The girl watched him warily, but Stonesnake gave a mordant chuckle. "It's the captive supposed to tell things, remember?"

 

Alys isn't really safe until she's married and that marriage is consummated. Jon's on thin ice protecting her and getting involved in that situation being LC. This is certainly debatable, but because Alys reminds Jon that "Karhold Remembers" (that the KitN executed their head of family?) I have serious doubts as to her loyalties to any Stark.

She also gets on famously with the Magnar of Thenn who hates, hates, hates Jon. Maybe they get on instantly because they found something in common, eh?

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6 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I am not a fan of Jon and Daenerys becoming romantically involved either, but the show only confirmed what the books have been hinting at for years. I am sure that it will be written much better in the books, at least. It was extremely off putting on the show. 

Daenerys dreams of a lover and Jon seems to fit the bill, here:

Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow (Daenerys II, ASOS)

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. (Melisandre, ADWD)

Daenerys has....well, lets say a peculiar taste in men, but I am sure that she will find Jon attractive enough. 

Yeah, I could see Dany liking Jon, even without the show confirming it I'd see Dany and Jon both being attracted to each other.  I'm not even sure Dany's taste in men is that peculiar, she's a young girl attracted to the bad boys, dangerous and confident men who can make her feel safe.  I would think Jon would check a lot of those boxes for her, he's not really dangerous in a way that Daario or Drogo were but he's a guy who clearly can handle himself in a fight and has been through and seen some real shit go down.  

5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

If the writer wanted us to imagine Jon as physically handsome on the level of Loras or Renly or Jaime or the young Robert, he would have found a way to tell us. Even Cat (for example), when thinking of Jon, could have a thought like "on top of everything else, the boy was evidently growing up to be more than usually attractive, which didn't help matters, making her think of how much more beautiful the boy's mother could have been than she was" - but we never have any indication of Jon's special handsome looks (or the opposite). Sure, it is entirely possible (even likely) that this is one of the things GRRM leaves to the reader's imagination, probably meaning that it's not an important issue either way.

Yes, there are women attracted to Jon, Ygritte definitely, Val probably. Still, physical beauty is not the only way a man can be attractive. Romantic, young teenage girls, like Sansa and Jeyne in AGoT, will go wild when they see someone looking like Loras or (the original) Beric, all shining armour and gallant manners, but a more mature woman will be attracted to something more than mere physical charm. Extraordinary beauty will be noticed, of course, but there are many other qualities that can make a man attractive, which is, by the way, something GRRM seems to observe in connection with women. Even though Jon notices that Ygritte is not a special beauty, he is attracted to her smile,  to her voice and to her liveliness and independence. The same is true in the case of men: It is possible for a girl to be attracted by the way someone looks at her, by his eyes or by his smile or by his voice (etc.) alone, regardless of his overall appearance, while the same features may not even be noticed by another woman. Personality, charisma, the "inner fire", the way a man makes a woman feel, shared values and interests have more to do with lasting attraction than the beauty of one's physical features. 

If we talk about physical appearances, I don't see the point in comparing Jon and Stannis. They probably attract different kinds of women, but too-soon aging Stannis with his misogyny and lacking all personal charm or kindness will predictably be less popular with women than Jon Snow, even though he is a king (of some sort). Comparing their personalities to see both the similarities and differences and analysing the uneasy but ultimately working relationship between them would be really interesting though. 

This exactly.  I don't really know why Stannis is being talked about, we don't have any indication of any woman besides for his wife ever finding him attractive.

But yeah, you gotta look at the whole package as far as attractiveness goes, and I'd say it's pretty clear Jon's not supposed to be particularly attractive or good looking on his own.  But you can see how he's grown more into his own and how he's probably one of the best looking guys in the Night's Watch or at the Wall, add in the fact that girls like Val and Alys get to see him in his element as a leader and commander, get to see him be compassionate and treat them with respect, and you could definitely see why they would be attracted to him.  

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Alys isn't really safe until she's married and that marriage is consummated. Jon's on thin ice protecting her and getting involved in that situation being LC. This is certainly debatable, but because Alys reminds Jon that "Karhold Remembers" (that the KitN executed their head of family?) I have serious doubts as to her loyalties to any Stark.

She also gets on famously with the Magnar of Thenn who hates, hates, hates Jon. Maybe they get on instantly because they found something in common, eh?

Alys is probably the most loyal person to Jon and the Starks now.  He saved her life.  The context she is saying "Karhold Remembers" in is when Jon asks her to send any old men who want to die to the Wall, Alys is saying of course she will.  And Sigorn does or did hate Jon, but I can't imagine he will any longer.  Because of Jon Sigorn has a freaking castle south of the Wall :D.  

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Alys is probably the most loyal person to Jon and the Starks now.  He saved her life.  The context she is saying "Karhold Remembers" in is when Jon asks her to send any old men who want to die to the Wall, Alys is saying of course she will.  And Sigorn does or did hate Jon, but I can't imagine he will any longer.  Because of Jon Sigorn has a freaking castle south of the Wall :D.  

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one until the next book comes out. I'm actually working on a topic for this - think it'd be interesting to dig into this further.

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Okay, my two cents on this.  First of all, I think, although is all very interesting, the OP was asking in connection with personality attractiveness more than physical although I don't personally have an issue with discussing the physical....  Also when I first read the post (have been lurking here for a day or so before voicing my input) I got the impression that the OP (correct me if I am wrong) wasn't so much talking about "success with the ladies" but also with their own subordinates, enemies, friends, frenemies lol... people in general.

If I could cut down the answer to one word the word would be "charisma."  For better or for worse Jon seems to have enough of it to win an election (okay thanks to one person who owed him something - Sam- but who also believed in him, and someone who did  believed in him period - Maester Aemon) still they could only do so much, many of the black brothers wanted Jon.  Fair deal, some because the alternative were disgraced Lords who wanted to behave as absolute Lords on the Wall and had nothing but contempt for the lower born (the place where incidentally most black brothers come from)...  Still... there seemed, if I remember rightly to be a middle of the ground contender.  Okay, of course Jon had saved Mormont from an undead and what not but still... they chose him.  Even if he had lost that election he would have been a very close candidate...

lol complaining (not quite) that this had got off topic and here I go, on the same vein.  Now, this thread specifically asked why one is more popular than the other (Stannis -v- Jon).  Well, when I first encountered Stannis in the books (and Delaney's portray of him is phenomenal in my view)  I was convinced that George had gotten himself to the local library (or amazon or wherever) and got a book on autism lol  Hey, before anyone gets mad, I have a number of friends diagnosed with the condition who I love and respect very much and it is not my intention to cast a negative view on them.  Still, what I mean by "a book on autism" is that Stannis is pretty "text book" in that regard.  Most people with the condition have learnt to be much more socially adept (mostly out of sheer necessity), although not all. Most do not present every single trait.  I think Stannis does.

Why am I mentioning this and where am I am going with this?  

Okay, ignore the psychology/psychiatry lecture lol but he is black/white, rigid, obsesses with stuff to a point that hardly any other character do (righteous thoughts, duty(save Lancel; the High Sparrow doesn't obsess in my opinion, he takes advantage.. for the good of the poor mayhaps but still..) but digressing still.  Okay, under-elaborated on this.   He seems unable to engage in "pleasurable communication."  What I mean by pleasurable communication is okay, silly talk, but talk that enables one to met another, often in a a trivial setting.  In the forums we do it inadvertedly all the time by discussing topics and series we love, say....I get the impression that Stannis doesn't enjoy discussion unless pragmatically unavoidable etc (say for a war meeting).  He is not alone and I don't belittle people who are not socialites lol but, in this context, I do think, this greatly contributes to him not being so "attractive."

Stannis may be seem as morose, just as Jon and Ned, but hey not on the same league!  Ned made a point of meeting with his Lords and servants alike at the table.  Even if he had duty in mind, he was surely able to crack a joke or two with them, even get slightly merry... bonding.  "I am just like you" message  Jokes may not have come naturally to him but he was inclusive.  So was Jon until something got into his head (and I hated that) that he could no longer, no matter how much he desired it, sit with his common friends, or even friends (low or high born lol) for he was LC.   Broke my heart a bit!

Basically, what I am trying to say is that Stannis is "unapproachable."  I cannot accuse him, and btw, I don't hate this character, and I don't accuse him of being above his station, for he made a very humble man his Hand.  Now, in my humble opinion, Davos would be better loved and better to lead if he had Stannis military strategy in land...  He may be low born but he is approachable.  Now do the troops need approachable?  Debatable; Tywin did it with fear, for instance...  Mace with a fearful mother (one guesses).  I think the troops like high born and approachable.  Obviously on the understanding that both contenders are good in battle lol, and at leading a battle.

Okay, so easy to get off topic here, but basically what I am saying is that Stannis can be seen by most as an obsessive fanatic.  Going back to my autism diagnosis, not uncommon to obsess with something (be it a political stand, or whatever else) in the modern world.  Stannis obsesses (unlike his contenders who "lust" on power) with his duty to be in power.  Okay, Mel plays him like a fiddle sure...

One reason is not successful with the ladies is not that he is misogynist particularly.  Not sure that he is in their world, to be honest.  He seems to dismiss women and men alike in terms of his ability or willingness to engage with them, especially in small talk.  He has no time whatsoever for jokes or silly talk, may you be male, female, child or eunuch lol

To me, Stannis is a great commander and not a terrible man at heart either.  Certainly not more than Tyrion and they are both kinslayers, although I think Tyrion was pushed way more, despite a certain symmetry in them both not being the loved child... still, I know Jon is stubborn and can be morose and moan about the "bastard" thing just as Tyrion moans about the "dwarf" thing... Stannis moans less but interacts zero!

Whether wench or noble lady or noble vassal or just servant, he can only inspire you if you admire his battle tactics (which are supposed to be huge).  One can even sympathise, like with Jon and Tyrion, Sandor, or even Dany re their childhood but, unfair as it may be, people unable to communicate in a social way (yeah, hey, that pint of ale in the tavern, or a story by the fire with the children etc) are not the people most of us gravitate to.

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On 1/23/2018 at 9:33 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

@Morgana Lannister

Thanks! This was exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.

Very pleased to hear that I touched the points you wanted to discuss.  Of course, we all talk from our perspectives and from what we like and dislike in people in the real world to be honest, so what to some may be a virtue to others may be a fault or vice-versa but I think that generally speaking we are more able to turn a blind eye on the faults of people (or characters as it may be) who make us laugh and we could potentially spend some lighthearted fun times, unfair as it may be.  Okay, if someone is just simply outwardly charming but shows extreme signs of narcissism etc or is known to be extremely conniving (LF comes to mind) then people get wary pretty quickly but for the most part I stand that a sunnier personality can go a long way.  Another thing that I think is important for a leader especially, in any era or social set, is being able to deliver powerful speeches.  Tyrion certainly does that at the Blackwater, for instance and he manages to get the troops to follow him despite the fact that they by and large dislike him and look down on him.  Dany seems to use powerful speeches too.  Now Mel is the one doing that for Stannis and, due to her religious agenda, she is only able to attract those converted or ready to be converted, and can be divisive when it comes to people of other faiths.  I think this is one of his disadvantages too.  Now, going back to Jon, I think he is much more middle of the road when it comes to the ability to, say, deliver a powerful speech.  I am trying to think of an example and I keep mixing show and books a bit in my mind lol but I seem to recall that he seemed to hold his own well when confronted by Allister and co re his time with the wildlings.  Jon may not have exactly the verbal resourcefulness of Tyrion but Stannis would just quote "duty" or "Rhollor"... not something a lot of people can relate to..

Now, although this is a digression, I wonder how he fares (Stannis) in personality terms or reader popularity versus, say, Dolorous Ed.  Just curiosity on my part.  I know that Stannis is very popular with some readers although no so much with his own "contemporaries" in the books as it were.  Now, to me Ed is so miserable in his talk that sounds almost comical.  Still the character is presented as capable and loyal.  Alright, we are not supposed to discuss the show in a books thread but, just in passing, when he was made LC in the show I was a bit worried about him having "popularity issues" even with the anti Allister etc Jon supporters.  By all means, if I have gotten too off topic, feel free to ignore me on this one. :)

Oh, an afterthought which was screaming at me but for some reason forgot to mention.  I think the biggest problem IMHO with Stannis is that he finds it really difficult to display affection with words or body language.  Again, not a criticism and it fits perfectly with my "obsession" with him being autistic lol  Now, the friends in real life I mentioned earlier in this spectrum are able to express affection quite well.  Sadly, if they weren't probably it would have been too hard for me to relate to them.  Now, Stannis would kind of terrify me right away with his lack of emotional display.  I know this may just be me, for I am one of those people who want to feel what a friend or opponent feels towards me (or have some incline lol) and Stannis does not give that away at all.  

I accept that they are in a society where marriages among the nobility are political, still many (would venture to say most) try to give it a go even if it takes time:  Ned and Cat, Edmure and Roslin (rather rapidly lol).  Tyrion did try with Sansa even if it was (at the time at least) a lost cause.  Also at Joffrey's wedding, Tyrion envies the interaction of one of the Fossaways couples (the one expecting a child) but focusing on the interaction of the couple.  Margeary, okay granted for her own ends, but she does try to relate to whatever king she is with.  I believe, in a society where nobles are born and bred to marry for duty, most try to see if they can "enjoy the duty" and not just in the bed chamber but in their normal lives too.  Fair is fair to say that we don't have insight onto Selyse's and Stannis' early marriage but I have issues imagining his behavior as anything but "cold duty", without an attempt to buy her a pretty necklace, or bring her flowers, say, or kiss her tenderly, if not passionately, even if she is plain in looks by the description.  Incidentally, out of all the characters I guess he cares less about looks than any of the others.  If I am correct in that, that should not have been an obstacle.  Now, "her" inability to give him a living son is a different matter... and clearly one of her traumas.  I actually compare Selyse to Lysa a bit, in terms of past experiences.

Stannis appears made of stone.  I don't believe for a minute that he is though.  I think that he feels emotions, love, like and dislikes like all of us, he is just not able to convey them in what is perceived as a "normal" way.

In fact, I am going to have to give you that, with your opening post and the discussion that has followed I am now more interested in Stannis that I was ever before lol, well done!

 

However, I have come to the conclusion, I believe relevant to your post, that whether we compare Stannis to Jon or Strong Belwas lol his difficulties esteem from a communication disability or something of the kind.  I don't thinks it's its age, his looks, his house, his deeds even... just the fact that he comes across as "set in stone." unmoved, unbent... (although I know those words used by another house in a different context but they fit him just so well). ;)

Oh, gosh, sorry if I am getting too wordy in my posts and lengthy! lol a clear difference with Stannis in terms of the people he promotes and/ trust.  Okay, stating the obvious but if Mel asks him to go to KL to dance the Macarena lol he would not hesitate.  Davos is the closest to a "real friend" he has and I am not saying that Davos can't be bought, only to an extend (his children's prospects) but Davos would not dance the Macarena for him... Stannis should value a "friend/associate" who tells it as he sees it but nope...he continues to dance the Macarena for a woman who I am sure fucks out of duty too (despite the fact that she is the hottest sorcereress in Westeros).  I get the impression, could be wrong, that hot does not matter to him, duty to be TPTWP does!  Most men/women who have affairs do it for lust or even personality, I think Stannis is oblivious to that.  He is bedding Mel for the good of humanity...

Please guys, feel free to disagree.  This is just my impression and oftentimes I go on hunch perception ;)

 

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On 1/22/2018 at 8:00 PM, Lollygag said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one until the next book comes out. I'm actually working on a topic for this - think it'd be interesting to dig into this further.

Quoting@

Alys is probably the most loyal person to Jon and the Starks now.  He saved her life.  The context she is saying "Karhold Remembers" in is when Jon asks her to send any old men who want to die to the Wall, Alys is saying of course she will.  And Sigorn does or did hate Jon, but I can't imagine he will any longer.  Because of Jon Sigorn has a freaking castle south of the Wall :D. 

Not being awful, and hey we all digress at times but  you are on a different topic altogether!  Without being a mod, could I politely request that you create a new thread for your debate? @Lollygag

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2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Quoting@

Alys is probably the most loyal person to Jon and the Starks now.  He saved her life.  The context she is saying "Karhold Remembers" in is when Jon asks her to send any old men who want to die to the Wall, Alys is saying of course she will.  And Sigorn does or did hate Jon, but I can't imagine he will any longer.  Because of Jon Sigorn has a freaking castle south of the Wall :D. 

Not being awful, and hey we all digress at times but fuck me Norah! you are on a different topic altogether!  Without being a mod, could I politely request that you create a new thread for your debate? @Lollygag

Sorry, but I'm not following...

First, I'm not the only person who has been confused about the topic here. At any time, the OP and the topic name could have been clarified. Second, why did you request that I create a new topic after I already said I was going to do just that? Third, the other quote you pulled belonged to @Tagganaro who was completely fair to reply given that the OP himself was citing Alys as evidence for Jon's appearance. I differed stating that she had other motives beyond swooning at Jon's sex appeal. If the OP @Corvo the Crow is using Alys as evidence for something about Jon's appearance or his je ne sais quoi as the case may be, then speculation about Alys' motives or any other characters' motives relative to Jon's influence on them in this respect is in fact on topic. I want to go into Alys/Sigorn/the Thenns more in depth and separate it from Jon somewhat, hence am creating a new topic.

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15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sorry, but I'm not following...

First, I'm not the only person who has been confused about the topic here. At any time, the OP and the topic name could have been clarified. Second, why did you request that I create a new topic after I already said I was going to do just that? Third, the other quote you pulled belonged to @Tagganaro who was completely fair to reply given that the OP himself was citing Alys as evidence for Jon's appearance. I differed stating that she had other motives beyond swooning at Jon's sex appeal. If the OP @Corvo the Crow is using Alys as evidence for something about Jon's appearance or his je ne sais quoi as the case may be, then speculation about Alys' motives or any other characters' motives relative to Jon's influence on them in this respect is in fact on topic. I want to go into Alys/Sigorn/the Thenns more in depth and separate it from Jon somewhat, hence am creating a new topic.

agree with this.  It is not a digression to discuss Alys Karstark, and indeed any other lady who may or may not be attracted to Jon, considering it is basically the whole point of this thread.  I look forward to a different thread discussing Alys/Sigorn and their loyalty (or lack thereof) to Jon @Lollygag.

 

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17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sorry, but I'm not following...

First, I'm not the only person who has been confused about the topic here. At any time, the OP and the topic name could have been clarified. Second, why did you request that I create a new topic after I already said I was going to do just that? Third, the other quote you pulled belonged to @Tagganaro who was completely fair to reply given that the OP himself was citing Alys as evidence for Jon's appearance. I differed stating that she had other motives beyond swooning at Jon's sex appeal. If the OP @Corvo the Crow is using Alys as evidence for something about Jon's appearance or his je ne sais quoi as the case may be, then speculation about Alys' motives or any other characters' motives relative to Jon's influence on them in this respect is in fact on topic. I want to go into Alys/Sigorn/the Thenns more in depth and separate it from Jon somewhat, hence am creating a new topic.

My apologies if I came across too strongly in terms of feeling this was off topic.  I think I understand your point in trying to analyse whether some ladies are actually attracted to him or not.  I guess I just thought that the main reference (whether in connection with their personalities or their physical attractiveness) was meant to be between Stannis and Jon and that the thread was derailing a bit just mainly discussing Alys, or even Lysa Arryn at one point (who is unconnected to both Jon and Stannis).  Alys has interacted with Jon of course so I guess it is fair to discuss whether or not she is attracted to Jon.  I guess it is also fair to point out that not all the people who appear attracted to someone are just acting because they are attracted but for some potential gain.  Still, I just felt that whether or not this was the case say with Val or Alys re Jon in no way did it prove anything for or against reasons why, say Jon, is more or less attractive than Stannis since it can also be argued that well Mel is having it off with Stannis (although, yeah, for her own reasons).  Still, fair enough, I did over-react to be honest.  I am truly sorry about having come across so antagonistic.

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6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

agree with this.  It is not a digression to discuss Alys Karstark, and indeed any other lady who may or may not be attracted to Jon, considering it is basically the whole point of this thread.  I look forward to a different thread discussing Alys/Sigorn and their loyalty (or lack thereof) to Jon @Lollygag.

 

As I said, I can only apologise.  I got carried away with the fact that people were discussing primarily characters that were not Jon or Stannis, and particularly not them in conjunction in favour of Alys and her Thenn, Lysa and so on.  and @Lollygag, my apologies again if I missed the fact that you said you would make another topic.  Hopefully, no bad feelings!

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6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

agree with this.  It is not a digression to discuss Alys Karstark, and indeed any other lady who may or may not be attracted to Jon, considering it is basically the whole point of this thread.  I look forward to a different thread discussing Alys/Sigorn and their loyalty (or lack thereof) to Jon @Lollygag.

 

As I said, I can only apologise.  I got carried away with the fact that people were discussing primarily characters that were not Jon or Stannis, and particularly not them in conjunction in favour of Alys and her Thenn, Lysa and so on.  and @Lollygag, my apologies again if I missed the fact that you said you would make another topic.  Hopefully, no bad feelings!

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In terms of physical attractiveness, I guess George has left that one open on purpose.  He refers to him looking like Ned, also a long face (not necessarily considered the most beautiful feature but not the worse either) and my hunch (likely wrong) linked to his dwelling on being a bastard and what not... slightly morose personality.  Still, I think he is average at worst.  So is Stannis, I think, albeit older.  Stannis is compared physically with Renly, who is a charmer (in a good way, thus mayhaps a childish one - Cat for instance seems to think that he is more "playing" than "doing") but nothing as "comely" (not exact words from text but general feeling) but that aside.  Still, I would think Jon is average plus.  Tyrion for instance, in the books is very much as ugly as it can get.  Personally never saw the need for that plot-wise.  I felt that him being a dwarf was enough for the characterisation but hey, he is George's character and his series lol.

So basically, going back to base, hey one is older than the other, both appear likely average and who is attracted to them basically down to what the specific ladies like (discount the ones out there for gain alone), I guess the real deciding factor here is personality, however one approaches the topic.

 

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