Theories about Arthur Dayne

[Crona]

Just for fun, I’d like to see what theories you guys like best about Arthur Dayne?

A.) He is alive and living in the Neck/Starfall/High Hermitage..etc...

B.) Something akin to Camaris from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. 

C.) He’s Mance or Qurin Halfhand

D.) He was having an affair with Elia and Aegon/Rhaenys or Gerold Dayne are his children

E.) He died an honorable knight (not really a theory...)

F.) Your own theory?

I think most likely he’s dead and died honorably but I always find B and D very interesting

[divica]

58 minutes ago, Crona said:

Just for fun, I’d like to see what theories you guys like best about Arthur Dayne?

A.) He is alive and living in the Neck/Starfall/High Hermitage..etc...

B.) Something akin to Camaris from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. 

C.) He’s Mance or Qurin Halfhand

D.) He was having an affair with Elia and Aegon/Rhaenys or Gerold Dayne are his children

E.) He died an honorable knight (not really a theory...)

F.) Your own theory?

I think most likely he’s dead and died honorably but I always find B and D very interesting

A) if he was alive he would feel compeled to protect/help the living targaryens. He wouldn t be in any of those places.

B  ) why would ned spare him and hide him somewhere where he would never know who he was? It sounds extremelly mean

C) He can t be mance (text evidence) and what would be the point of him being quorin?

D) Slightly more interesting if fAegon=Aegon otherwise seems mostly useless

E) Sadly I think it is the most probable =(

F) My most recent theory is that if he survived the ToJ Ned made him go to the Wall because he didn t want to make it public that jon was an heir to the IT and arthur's presence would raise too much questions. So as a KG that failed his duty and decided to trust jon's wellfare to Ned he decided to join the NW because it was the most honorably thing to do. There he could have trained mance and become really close with him (like a father/son relationship or brothers) and some years later when he died asked mance to look out for jon. And that is why mance has been so nice to jon so far lol

[Back door hodor]

Perhaps you could explain option b....I don't know the reference

[Makk]

The Qhorin Halfhand speculation is the best imo, although I am still not convinced.

Note I hate the Dayne is Mance theories, I think this one fits a lot better.

Firstly we don't really know a lot about the two characters, but what we do know makes them sound quite similar. 

We probably know know more about the Halfhand having first hand but his description is extremely vague.

Quote

Jon knew Qhorin Halfhand the instant he saw him, though they had never met. The big ranger was half a legend in the Watch; a man of slow words and swift action, tall and straight as a spear, long-limbed and solemn. Unlike his men, he was clean-shaven. His hair fell from beneath his helm in a heavy braid touched with hoarfrost, and the blacks he wore were so faded they might have been greys. Only thumb and forefinger remained on the hand that held the reins; the other fingers had been sheared off catching a wildling's axe that would otherwise have split his skull. It was told that he had thrust his maimed fist into the face of the axeman so the blood spurted into his eyes, and slew him while he was blind. Since that day, the wildlings beyond the Wall had known no foe more implacable.

We do know he was solemn and was a man of slow words. At the Tower of Joy we know Dayne had a sad smile and said the least of the three kingsguard. We also know they are both peerless swordsman.

Whoever the halfhand is he appears to know Eddard Stark very well, well enough to see resemblance and also know his family. But if he was Dayne this could even be an allusion to some resemblance of Rhaegar we are unaware of, or simply the answer to an old puzzle about whether the plan of Ned claiming him as his son would work... as a baby they must have been worried about possible Targaryen features developing. 

Quote

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. "You are Jon Snow. You have your father's look."

It would help explain his weird interest in Jon Snow. His urge to protect him and his urge to promote him.

Quote

Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow."

Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."
 

There is a surprising amount of symbolism that could point to it. 

Quote

I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right.

Quote

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

Quote

Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.

There is an odd line in the tower of joy text that implies there was someone else still alive after the combat, and if it was Dayne the Wall is a highly logical place for him to hide

Quote

Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

 

Qhorin's past is a mystery, Jon makes an assumption but he doesn't know

Quote

He was not a man you'd expect to speak of maids and wedding nights. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his whole life in the Watch. Did he ever love a maid or have a wedding? He could not ask.

If he was Dayne it would explain quite a bit, and dying defending his king is a very fitting end, much more so than if he died at the Tower of Joy.

 

...But counter evidence.

Quote

"When I was no older than you, I heard a brother tell how he followed a shadowcat through these falls." He unsaddled his horse, removed her bit and bridle, and ran his fingers through her shaggy mane. "There is a way through the heart of the mountain. Come dawn, if they have not found us, we will press on. The first watch is mine, brother." Qhorin seated himself on the sand, his back to a wall, no more than a vague black shadow in the gloom of the cave. Over the rush of falling waters, Jon heard a soft sound of steel on leather that could only mean that the Halfhand had drawn his sword.

This is why I think it unlikely. You can come up with some explanations to that comment but it feels like stretching to me, and there would be no need for GRRM to add this line in, it is all obscure enough not to need this degree of misdirection. However I still feel he fits the Halfhand better than any theory I have heard for anyone else. 

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Makk said:

The Qhorin Halfhand speculation is the best imo, although I am still not convinced.

Note I hate the Dayne is Mance theories, I think this one fits a lot better.

 

We know that mance was raised in the NW. He can t be Arthur dayne.

Wouldn t alliser thorne recognise arthur dayne if he were at the Wall?

[Curled Finger]

If you enjoy option D why stop there?   Include that Allyria is Ashara and Arthur's daughter.   Have some real fun. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Meera's mock fight with Bran's wolf Summer was actually an reenactment of Howland Reed vs Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy. Arthur Dayne is in the dungeons at Greywater Watch still trapped in Howland Reed's net. Howland is keeping him and Robb's Will for safe keeping until he decides what moves he wants to make.

 

.

[Crona]

7 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Perhaps you could explain option b....I don't know the reference

There was a thread about it but I can’t find the same one again. But its based off the character Camaris from Memory, Sorrow,and Thorn. 

Spoiler to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn

Spoiler

Camaris wielded a sword forged from a meteorite and was considered a great fighter, and he was drowned at sea but didn’t die and had amnesia. He lived as a mute and simpleton until he received his memory back by wielding his sword again.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If you enjoy option D why stop there?   Include that Allyria is Ashara and Arthur's daughter.   Have some real fun. 

Sure why not

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Meera's mock fight with Bran's wolf Summer was actually an reenactment of Howland Reed vs Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy. Arthur Dayne is in the dungeons at Greywater Watch still trapped in Howland Reed's net. Howland is keeping him and Robb's Will for safe keeping until he decides what moves he wants to make.

 

.

Do you mean an actual net or Howland Reed has some sort of warging ability still holding him?

7 hours ago, divica said:

 

F) My most recent theory is that if he survived the ToJ Ned made him go to the Wall because he didn t want to make it public that jon was an heir to the IT and arthur's presence would raise too much questions. So as a KG that failed his duty and decided to trust jon's wellfare to Ned he decided to join the NW because it was the most honorably thing to do. There he could have trained mance and become really close with him (like a father/son relationship or brothers) and some years later when he died asked mance to look out for jon. And that is why mance has been so nice to jon so far lol

Well that’s a new one lol

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Crona said:

Do you mean an actual net or Howland Reed has some sort of warging ability still holding him?

Just your typical well crafted crannogmen net like the one Meera used to tangle Summer. That and the dungeon would be enough to hold him I reckon. 

[Jon Fossoway]

I think, only by reading his name, that Qhorin is of ironborn origin. There is only one more known Qhorin and he was an ironborn King. There are also some Qhorwyns and Qhoreds. 

The text indicates that Qhorin spent nearly all his life in the Watch. 

9 hours ago, Makk said:

 

It would help explain his weird interest in Jon Snow. His urge to protect him and his urge to promote him.

 

Because he is the Ned's natural son and he looks like him.

If Qhorin did actually spent most of his life in the Watch (thus being the ultimate epythome of a devoted black brother) then most of his interests coincide with the Watch. Nearly all what he says, specially in his exchanges with Snow, are things about how their mission is protecting the real. That is kinda weird, in an order that was failing and have receeding numbers. He even sacrificed himself to infiltrate Jon Snow among the wildlings. The Starks have been traditionally supplyng highborn to their ranks and also have given them land and we can assume they also give them resources. Yes, I am saying that Qhorin was a Stark-fan. He might have been as narrow minded as that, being a man whose sole ocupation was guarding a huge Wall in the edge of the world.

There could be an alternative fate to Arthur Dayne. But a former Kingsguard who probably knows how to read and write just can't go unnoticed for long and Qhorin has lasted for decades in the Watch.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Meera's mock fight with Bran's wolf Summer was actually an reenactment of Howland Reed vs Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy.

This I agree with. I have a hard time believing Howland Reed would have killed him. Not because I think he's such a stand up guy and would never do that, but because Howland Reed seems to believe and understand what's coming. When Jojen tells him that Ned died, he believes him. And he sends his children to the peril of their lives to Bran so that they may help him achieve his destiny. If Arthur is part of the greater picture and he believes that the Long Night is coming and I'm inclined to think he did, then he and Howland might have found common ground.

It's the passage about the capture of Aemon the Dragonknight on the Prince's Pass that made me wonder even more about Arthur. I don't think he's out pretending to be someone else. If he's alive, he'll turn up when he is needed and I wouldn't be surprised if it's at the Wall.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 hours ago, Makk said:

The Qhorin Halfhand speculation is the best imo, although I am still not convinced.

Note I hate the Dayne is Mance theories, I think this one fits a lot better.

Firstly we don't really know a lot about the two characters, but what we do know makes them sound quite similar. 

We probably know know more about the Halfhand having first hand but his description is extremely vague.

We do know he was solemn and was a man of slow words. At the Tower of Joy we know Dayne had a sad smile and said the least of the three kingsguard. We also know they are both peerless swordsman.

Whoever the halfhand is he appears to know Eddard Stark very well, well enough to see resemblance and also know his family. But if he was Dayne this could even be an allusion to some resemblance of Rhaegar we are unaware of, or simply the answer to an old puzzle about whether the plan of Ned claiming him as his son would work... as a baby they must have been worried about possible Targaryen features developing. 

It would help explain his weird interest in Jon Snow. His urge to protect him and his urge to promote him.

There is a surprising amount of symbolism that could point to it. 

There is an odd line in the tower of joy text that implies there was someone else still alive after the combat, and if it was Dayne the Wall is a highly logical place for him to hide

 

Qhorin's past is a mystery, Jon makes an assumption but he doesn't know

If he was Dayne it would explain quite a bit, and dying defending his king is a very fitting end, much more so than if he died at the Tower of Joy.

 

...But counter evidence.

This is why I think it unlikely. You can come up with some explanations to that comment but it feels like stretching to me, and there would be no need for GRRM to add this line in, it is all obscure enough not to need this degree of misdirection. However I still feel he fits the Halfhand better than any theory I have heard for anyone else. 

Great breakdown, this Arthur Dayne = HalfHand... was an intriguing idea. But there is a simpler explanation.

Benjen Stark has been a brother with the Half Hand for basically Jon’s whole life. Also while it isn’t clear exactly why Benjen joined the Watch it is likely it had to do with the events leading up to or during Robert’s Rebellion, and he may well know Jon’s identity. In fact I’d say it’s likely.

But Quarin could easily be talking about Jon’s Father being Ned Stark or Rhaegar and it could make sense. Especially so in a series like this where George is always doing phrasing puns/jokes/foreshadowing.

There are multiple Brother’s of the Watch who should be able to identify Arthur Dayne, that’s the biggest issue for me.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There are multiple Brother’s of the Watch who should be able to identify Arthur Dayne, that’s the biggest issue for me.

That and the fact that he appears to Jaime as a ghost.

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, Crona said:

E.) He died an honorable knight (not really a theory...)

He is dead, but his work to overthrow the king will be a stain on his honor, and he was lucky that he was killed by a man as honorable as he was, so his family still has the sword 

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There are multiple Brother’s of the Watch who should be able to identify Arthur Dayne, that’s the biggest issue for me.

There are countless black brothers who would also recognize Rhaegar but that sort of rational thought does not stop the fanboy speculation  

[Aegon VII]

18 hours ago, Makk said:

The Qhorin Halfhand speculation is the best imo, although I am still not convinced.

Note I hate the Dayne is Mance theories, I think this one fits a lot better.

Firstly we don't really know a lot about the two characters, but what we do know makes them sound quite similar. 

We probably know know more about the Halfhand having first hand but his description is extremely vague.

We do know he was solemn and was a man of slow words. At the Tower of Joy we know Dayne had a sad smile and said the least of the three kingsguard. We also know they are both peerless swordsman.

Whoever the halfhand is he appears to know Eddard Stark very well, well enough to see resemblance and also know his family. But if he was Dayne this could even be an allusion to some resemblance of Rhaegar we are unaware of, or simply the answer to an old puzzle about whether the plan of Ned claiming him as his son would work... as a baby they must have been worried about possible Targaryen features developing. 

It would help explain his weird interest in Jon Snow. His urge to protect him and his urge to promote him.

There is a surprising amount of symbolism that could point to it. 

There is an odd line in the tower of joy text that implies there was someone else still alive after the combat, and if it was Dayne the Wall is a highly logical place for him to hide

 

Qhorin's past is a mystery, Jon makes an assumption but he doesn't know

If he was Dayne it would explain quite a bit, and dying defending his king is a very fitting end, much more so than if he died at the Tower of Joy.

 

...But counter evidence.

This is why I think it unlikely. You can come up with some explanations to that comment but it feels like stretching to me, and there would be no need for GRRM to add this line in, it is all obscure enough not to need this degree of misdirection. However I still feel he fits the Halfhand better than any theory I have heard for anyone else. 

Good recap. I'll just add that they share the line about "knees do not bend easily" which I feel is a pretty huge nod.

Also we have qhorin reflecting on how a fire can be as pretty as a maid on her wedding knight, which is pretty sentimental for a nw ranger.

also, when he is killed by Jon it seems as though the cut missed but then a RUBY necklace of blood appears, suggesting he may still be glamoured/ hiding his identity.

arthur taught Jaime and Jaime loses a hand and tries to learn leftie, AD having done this as qhorin makes his and Jamie's story arch parallel each other further.

qhoran means like trusted advisor or something close, which AD was to Rhaegar.

and AD would have ultimately died saving jones life (which he was tasked to do at toj), by allowing Jon to kill him in fake duel.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There are countless black brothers who would also recognize Rhaegar but that sort of rational thought does not stop the fanboy speculation  

I mean I know people want Mance to be Rhaegar, but it’s even worse than that...

Mance was at Winterfell for the feast on Robert’s arrival... you can’t tell me Ned and Robert wouldn’t recognize him while he’s singing to the party if he was Rhaegar, that’s insane.

As for Arthur Dayne, I don’t see him being Quoran mostly because, as I said, there are a number of men on the wall who should be able to identify him.

Although I will admit that it’s a little odd that the Lord Commander before Mormont was Qorgyle, a Dornishman... the only other Qorgyle we’ve met, Arthur, squired for Oberyn in his duel with the mountain. 

I don’t think it’s the case, but there does seem to be more in common with Oswell Whent and Qhorin (however you spell it!) than any of the others... black humor and a sharp sword.

Honestly I think it’s a case of wanting there to be more there than makes sense, and we’ve all been there.

[divica]

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean I know people want Mance to be Rhaegar, but it’s even worse than that...

Mance was at Winterfell for the feast on Robert’s arrival... you can’t tell me Ned and Robert wouldn’t recognize him while he’s singing to the party if he was Rhaegar, that’s insane.

As for Arthur Dayne, I don’t see him being Quoran mostly because, as I said, there are a number of men on the wall who should be able to identify him.

Although I will admit that it’s a little odd that the Lord Commander before Mormont was Qorgyle, a Dornishman... the only other Qorgyle we’ve met, Arthur, squired for Oberyn in his duel with the mountain. 

I don’t think it’s the case, but there does seem to be more in common with Oswell Whent and Qhorin (however you spell it!) than any of the others... black humor and a sharp sword.

Honestly I think it’s a case of wanting there to be more there than makes sense, and we’ve all been there.

It isn t just a case of wanting. I think that 7 northmen vs 3 kinsguard with 2 northmen surviving is a bit strange and we have that passage in GoT about there being at least more 1 person in the ToJ than ned and howland. However I think if any of the KG survived they would go protect jon, the other targs or go to the Wall. So far the only place they might have gone is the Wall and there are a lot of problems with them staying there without being recognized... We would need a borther with a facial scar?

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, divica said:

we have that passage in GoT about there being at least more 1 person in the ToJ than ned and howland.

Of course there was - there's no way a young woman giving birth would have been alone in ToJ. There would have been a midwife at the very least, probably other female companions, who may have included Wylla who became Jon's wetnurse. I think that is the most that can be read into that 'they'.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of course there was - there's no way a young woman giving birth would have been alone in ToJ. There would have been a midwife at the very least, probably other female companions, who may have included Wylla who became Jon's wetnurse. I think that is the most that can be read into that 'they'.

true. The fact that there female companions doesn t mean a KG might not have survived.

I just pointed the only facts that might support the survival of arthur dayne... although it isn t much. =(