Stormking902

Quick question about Robbs will

94 posts in this topic

If Robb Stark did indeed name Jon Snow his heir and legitimized him as a "Stark", what happens if Ser Davos does find Rickon? Is Jon still technically KITN or does Rickon automatically take this title since he is Robb Starks true heir? We know the will was only needed because Bran and Rickon were thought dead so what are your thoughts on this topic? Also how would the Northern nobility feel taking orders from a bastard when the true born son or Ned Stark still breaths. 

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Oh Boy.   Best as I can tell a king's decree supersedes everything.  That said, the king is dead in this case and the heir would voluntarily step down on any claim to Winterfell if any of the siblings showed up.   The will was written in the belief all the Stark children were dead or married badly.  That has to be taken into consideration.   If Rickon were LOW and the will surfaced it would be no different so far as Jon is concerned.   Robb wanted Jon to rule and war in his stead.   So Jon can be King in the North and Rickon can be LOW then Sansa can be king because Jon doesn't care.  that's not saying he wouldn't have done everything he could to live up to Robb's wishes.   But bastards are a hard sell, even if they are Ned's.   Power resides where men believes it resides.  If enough Lords backed Jon there would be little he could do to decline.  If they threw a fit over it all the better for Jon.   He's not afraid to lead nor is he afraid to fight, but his real talent is in uniting forces.  

I think Jon's position on ruling and leading will be a very interesting thing when he's got some jackass telling him he's the rightful heir to the throne.  Poor Jon. 

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After Zombie Catelyn gets tired of killing Freys she's going to head North to find Robb's Will and tear it up faster then Cersei tore up Bobby B's Will. 

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6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

After Zombie Catelyn gets tired of killing Freys she's going to head North to find Robb's Will and tear it up faster then Cersei tore up Bobby B's Will. 

I highly doubt LS still holds a grudge against Jon she is focused primarily on revenge against who murdered her family so the Freys and Lannisters, I think when she gets word Jon Snow has been named KITN and has reclaimed WF in the Stark name she will be happy for him. If she hasnt had time to reflect and realise she was a main reason her family was killed in the first place she is incapable of logical thought in zombie mode, Jon reclaiming her Neds family holdings can only be looked at as a blessing. 

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh Boy.   Best as I can tell a king's decree supersedes everything.  That said, the king is dead in this case and the heir would voluntarily step down on any claim to Winterfell if any of the siblings showed up.

The "king" also never was a king. He was a rebel who unlawfully rose up against his rightful liege. and since said rebellion failed and he never got to consolidate his claimed title, he was never king.

So really,if the will is found all we'd have would be the will of a man who was declared traitor and who's house was stripped of power.

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If Robb wrote and signed that Jon is his heir and the Boltons are eventually wiped out, Jon is the king, if he lives. 

 

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

The "king" also never was a king. He was a rebel who unlawfully rose up against his rightful liege. and since said rebellion failed and he never got to consolidate his claimed title, he was never king.

So really,if the will is found all we'd have would be the will of a man who was declared traitor and who's house was stripped of power.

Yes, Tommen Baratheon was very clear about it. 

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12 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

If Robb wrote and signed that Jon is his heir and the Boltons are eventually wiped out, Jon is the king, if he lives. 

 

Last time I checked the king sat on a really tacky chair in King's Landing.

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

I highly doubt LS still holds a grudge against Jon 

I'm going to have to disagree. One of Catelyn's greatest fears was Jon Snow somehow becoming Lord of Winterfell over her children. When Jon went to say goodbye to Bran while he was in a comma Catelyn told Jon it should have been him in the comma and not Bran. 

Catelyn didn't want Robb to name Jon his heir even after she thought Bran, Rickon and probably Arya were all dead. So why now, after she's turned into a zombie full of hate, would she soften her stance regarding Jon? Believing all of her true born sons are dead and him alive she might very well have the same "it should have been you" feelings towards Jon that she had after Bran's fall.

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

I think when she gets word Jon Snow has been named KITN and has reclaimed WF in the Stark name she will be happy for him.

Well he hasn't retaking anything yet, and if he did retake it and was named KITN over Rickon because of Robb's Will I don't think she'll be happy for him at all. She'll see it as Jon stealing her son's inheritance, something that she's always feared could happen.

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

she is incapable of logical thought in zombie mode

I believe that for the most part Catelyn Stark was a good person and she loved her family dearly. However she has always been somewhat illogical and paranoid when it came to Jon Snow, who she does not consider family at all.

 

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20 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Last time I checked the king sat on a really tacky chair in King's Landing.

I think that Jon will be a king. Whether he'll renounce his crown if needed, or will sit on the Iron Throne, that's another question. 

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Debatable. In practice, the Will could be nullified because it was written to essentially write Sansa out because she was married to Tyrion Lannister, as Bran and Rickon were presumed dead. There are plenty of people running around at this moment who know both boys are still alive. Given that Rickon himself is not the true heir to Winterfell and rightful King in the North (Bran is), and the Liddles can confirm that Bran, the Reed, Hodor and Summer went by towards the Wall, you enter this awkward situation where you have to ask yourself -- who gets installed in Winterfell? Do we act as if Bran is dead or treat Rickon as a "temporary" ruler until he turns up? Or do you bypass both boys, stick with the will and go retrieve Jon.

Davos might well make it back to Winterfell with Rickon, Osha and Shaggydog but you still have to deal with the fact that he's five to six-year-old boy who cannot possibly make a good ruler at this point and would need a guardian to rule in his stead. I suspect that Mandley might be preparing to step into this position himself so as long as he gets a Stark back in Winterfell. Bran has already done the job but is far out of reach in a cave with a tree-man. Plus, as a boy who would probably be pushing eleven by the time he manages to get back to Winterfell take his seat, he would still need a regent.

This might be how the Will comes into play. If Jon is still alive then they have a man of age to take Winterfell either in his own right as Jon Stark or as a natural guardian to Rickon and Bran until the boys come of age. Heck, it might even be that they choose to separate the titles. Jon becomes Jon Stark, King in the North while the Stark boy is declared the Lord of Winterfell.

Ultimately, this will be an interesting case for the North.

Edited by Faera

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

The "king" also never was a king. He was a rebel who unlawfully rose up against his rightful liege. and since said rebellion failed and he never got to consolidate his claimed title, he was never king.

So really,if the will is found all we'd have would be the will of a man who was declared traitor and who's house was stripped of power.

He was a king. Same as Balon, Euron, Stannis, and Renly. 

Joffrey was a usurper born of incest. 

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

The "king" also never was a king. He was a rebel who unlawfully rose up against his rightful liege. and since said rebellion failed and he never got to consolidate his claimed title, he was never king.

So really,if the will is found all we'd have would be the will of a man who was declared traitor and who's house was stripped of power.

Not in the eyes of the Northmen. And in this case, that's all that matters.

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15 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Not in the eyes of the Northmen. And in this case, that's all that matters.

Agreed. If the Boltons are obliterated and Jon rises, I see no problem with him becoming a king. 

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm going to have to disagree. One of Catelyn's greatest fears was Jon Snow somehow becoming Lord of Winterfell over her children. When Jon went to say goodbye to Bran while he was in a comma Catelyn told Jon it should have been him in the comma and not Bran. 

Catelyn didn't want Robb to name Jon his heir even after she thought Bran, Rickon and probably Arya were all dead. So why now, after she's turned into a zombie full of hate, would she soften her stance regarding Jon? Believing all of her true born sons are dead and him alive she might very well have the same "it should have been you" feelings towards Jon that she had after Bran's fall.

Well he hasn't retaking anything yet, and if he did retake it and was named KITN over Rickon because of Robb's Will I don't think she'll be happy for him at all. She'll see it as Jon stealing her son's inheritance, something that she's always feared could happen.

I believe that for the most part Catelyn Stark was a good person and she loved her family dearly. However she has always been somewhat illogical and paranoid when it came to Jon Snow, who she does not consider family at all.

 

I agree that Cat is highly illogical when it comes to Jon Snow and I understand where she is coming from but come on is Rickon Stark retaking WF for house Stark? NO Jon will be, did Jon lose WF in the first place? NO Robb and Cat did a good enough job at that themselves so how could Cat be upset Jon went out of his way to regain Neds family holdings when there is litterally noone else to do so. Jon IF he retakes WF and kills the Boltons will be avenging Robb and doing his duty to house Stark I would hate Cat even more if she just assumed Jon wants to take Rickons birthright and besides Jon can still be KITN and Rickon Lord or WF would this make LS happy or will Nothing do the trick. 

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45 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

how could Cat be upset Jon went out of his way to regain Neds family holdings when there is litterally noone else to do so

Easiest thing in the world. Jon took NED'S FAMILY HOLDINGS. And they were never Jon's. They belonged to Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon. Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart wouldn't assume Jon was "avenging" or "doing his duty to house stark"; he'd be stealing from Catelyn's children, who in this case would be Sansa Lannister, bride of the twisted little monkey devil - but still better than Ned's bastard, in Catelyn's eyes.

I've also got to dispute this idea that Robb's will (if found; if it actually made it to Oldtown) makes Jon the King in the North. I thought it made him Lord of Winterfell. It's up to the northern lords to proclaim a king, if they desire. Did Ramsey Bolton get proclaimed King in the North? Not hardly. It would be a cold day in Dorne when that happens.

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19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Easiest thing in the world. Jon took NED'S FAMILY HOLDINGS. And they were never Jon's. They belonged to Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon. Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart wouldn't assume Jon was "avenging" or "doing his duty to house stark"; he'd be stealing from Catelyn's children, who in this case would be Sansa Lannister, bride of the twisted little monkey devil - but still better than Ned's bastard, in Catelyn's eyes.

I've also got to dispute this idea that Robb's will (if found; if it actually made it to Oldtown) makes Jon the King in the North. I thought it made him Lord of Winterfell. It's up to the northern lords to proclaim a king, if they desire. Did Ramsey Bolton get proclaimed King in the North? Not hardly. It would be a cold day in Dorne when that happens.

Robb's will made Jon his heir. Robb was King. His heir is the person who becomes King after him. Same way as if Robb died at Oxcross, the Northmen would have crowned Bran because he was Robb's heir.

Edited by Adam Yozza

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

I've also got to dispute this idea that Robb's will (if found; if it actually made it to Oldtown) makes Jon the King in the North. I thought it made him Lord of Winterfell. It's up to the northern lords to proclaim a king, if they desire. Did Ramsey Bolton get proclaimed King in the North? Not hardly. It would be a cold day in Dorne when that happens.

Ramsay Bolton hasn't been proclaimed King in the North because

a) that position is not recognised in the South and under the Boltons they are back as part of the seven kingdoms (at least for now)

b ) Roose Bolton is still alive

 

And what's this about Oldtown, why would the will be delivered there? Have I missed something?

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12 minutes ago, Makk said:

And what's this about Oldtown, why would the will be delivered there? Have I missed something?

This was a maybe unfounded assumption that I made. I figured Robb would send a copy of this important document to the Citadel, for archival and safekeeping. But it's an open question to me: what did Robb do with his will? Who has it? Are there multiple copies? Were all copies destroyed in Walder Frey's little blood-fest? Do you know? Any ideas?

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