What is Quaithe really?

[LynnS]

There is not much to go on from her physical description since the red mask hides her face.  Her eyes are wet and shiny, a description that is used to describe someone crying or on the verge of tears:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?" 

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

Lollys gaped at her, mouth open. She had dull brown eyes that always seemed to be wet with tears. "I don't want to."

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

"You disappoint me, Sansa," the queen said, with eyes gone hard as stones. "We've told you of your father's crimes. If you are truly as loyal as you say, why should you want to see him?"

"I … I only meant …" Sansa felt her eyes grow wet. "He's not … please, he hasn't been … hurt, or … or …"

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI

Big wet tears filled her eyes. "I never meant those things I said, the queen made me. Please. Your father frightens me so." She sat up, letting the blanket slide down to her lap. Beneath it she was naked, but for the chain about her throat. A chain of linked golden hands, each holding the next. 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

Lancel nodded, plainly miserable. "When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. "He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins." 

A Dance with Dragons - The Watcher

Ellaria's cheeks were wet with tears, her dark eyes shining. Even weeping, she has a strength in her, the captain thought.

The red wooden mask reminds me that Morna the Wood Witch also wears a wooden mask:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

And that the device on the the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a red face:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

Quaithe's mask is implacable: unable to be placated, unstoppable, unappeasing, unsparing, unforgiving.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=implacable&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

So it would seem that Quaithe is crying behind the mask; that her sorrow is implacable.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

58 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

I discounted anything that comes from any of the books that aren't AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC or ADWD. I don't think GRRM will rely on us having read the rest of the supporting text to fully understand the series. I'll feel a bit cheated if at the end of ADOS it turns out the answers were actually hidden within the Dunk and Egg series or the other short stories.

So that leaves you with "wet and shiny eyes" which i think you mean is a reference to the sea (wet) and star (shiny). I don't buy it, its too vague for me. The only instance I saw of a symbolic dream or vision that could allude to her identity is in Dany's last chapter in ADWD where it says Quaithe's mask appeared like starlight (or something to that effect). As I said above that could be a reference to Shiera but IMO Ashara has more plot armor.

I think you will be disappointed, or already are... as another pointed out above, Bloodraven is clearly a significant character, who we would know basically nothing about without Dunk and Egg.

However there is a better reason it’s not Seastar... she had eyes of different colors. Quaith’s eyes are described repeatedly, the rest of the face is behind a mask, one would expect this remarkable detail to be mentioned.

However, the fact that her mask is weirwood and she speaks the language of Westeros imply she isn’t “just Quaith” and she was born/raised in Westeros.

[Nezza86]

27 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm actually not convinced Quaithe is anyone other than Quaithe. I just wanted to reply to this.

By my count Shiera is only mentioned by name once. But, I'd like to point out that Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers is only mentioned three times before Bran meets him. The first occurence doesn't happen until aFfC. We all know he became a prominent figure in one of our main character's arc.

With that in mind I don't think we should eliminate the Quaithe = Shiera idea based on the amount of times she is mentioned.

 

 

That's a good point, and i don't totally rule out Quaithe being Shiera, but I do think Ashara is more likely. No-one in Dany's party would recognise Shiera as Quaithe so there would be no real need for the mask.

Also when we finally met Bloodraven he revealed himself to Bran and his identity wasn't that significant to the story. His appearance in D&E just provides some interesting background reading. Whereas Quaithe was met in the second book and has very blatantly concealed her real identity and persistently tried to guide Dany.

[LynnS]

She also tells Dany that she is Quaithe of the Shadow:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

The woman in the lacquered wooden mask said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms, "I am Quaithe of the Shadow. We come seeking dragons."

Does that mean the Shadow by Asshai or something else?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The wild stallion's heart was all muscle, and Dany had to worry it with her teeth and chew each mouthful a long time. No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains; she had to rip the heart apart with teeth and nails. Her stomach roiled and heaved, yet she kept on, her face smeared with the heartsblood that sometimes seemed to explode against her lips.

 

Is Quaithe one of the crones of Vaes Dothrak?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Also when we finally met Bloodraven he revealed himself to Bran and his identity wasn't that significant to the story. His appearance in D&E just provides some interesting background reading. Whereas Quaithe was met in the second book and has very blatantly concealed her real identity and persistently tried to guide Dany.

I think Bloodraven’s identity is significant... far more than Quaithe’s.  But then again I’m proabably in the minority who believe he is responsible for the return of the Others. Not to mention that he isn’t the only major plot piece expected to emerge from dunk and egg. The Blackfyre rebellions, the tradjedy of Summerhall, and Bloodraven all appear to be rearing their heads in the main series.

[Zapho]

38 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm actually not convinced Quaithe is anyone other than Quaithe. I just wanted to reply to this.

By my count Shiera is only mentioned by name once. But, I'd like to point out that Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers is only mentioned three times before Bran meets him. The first occurence doesn't happen until aFfC. We all know he became a prominent figure in one of our main character's arc.

With that in mind I don't think we should eliminate the Quaithe = Shiera idea based on the amount of times she is mentioned.

 

 

Even if she was Shiera, what is the point? Would it tell us anything about Quaithe's agenda? This is not a rhetoric question, I really can't see how this would advance the story or shed some light on what is going on.

Quaithe is clearly interested to get Dany to Asshai with her dragons. 

She warns Dany not to trust all the other people who are interested in the dragons. 

Her prophetic abilities seem to be the real thing. 

Among all the people she advises Dany not to trust are those who want her to go to Westeros: Quentyn, Tyrion, the IB, Varys (who I think is the perfumed Seneshal).

Her wooden mask connect her with witches, the color red with Rhollor and the red priests (maybe), there could be a connection to Melisandre, who had stayed in Asshai. The reference to starlight could be another connection to true prophetic abilities (as opposed to Mel, who gets it wrong quite a bit). Dany's dragons eggs have come from Asshai in the first place.

If Quaithe's mask has the purpose to hide her identity, it would make sense that someone in Dany's retinue would be able to identify her. Not even Ser Barristan is old enough to remember Shiera. Ashara on the other hand might be recognized. But Ashara is much more likely to be Septa Lemore who was travelling on the Rhoyne at the time. And Barristan had not even joined the party at the tine Dany met Quaithe. I'm not convinced that hiding a personal identity is the purpose of the mask. The thing itself could be magical, a tool to conceal the true agenda of the wearer, gain trust, hide her in plain sight from her enemies (the warlocks?), or maybe even enable the true sight in the first place.

I dunno, the possibilities are endless, the information scarce and the odds to get it right rather slim...

[Zapho]

40 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

However, the fact that her mask is weirwood and she speaks the language of Westeros imply she isn’t “just Quaith” and she was born/raised in Westeros.

Are you sure it's weirwood? I can't recall this was mentioned.

Her ability to speak the Common Tongue might be significant indeed. No accent was mentioned. Though Dany meets a lot of people at the time who would speak with an accent, so it might not have seemed significant to her.

Or could be that is what the mask truyl is for: it's a translator and there's no big 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Probably worth pointing out here that shadowbinders wear masks:

Quote

Four stories tall, the Merchant's House dominated the docks and wharves and storehouses that surrounded it. Here traders from Oldtown and King's Landing mingled with their counterparts from Braavos and Pentos and Myr, with hairy Ibbenese, pale-skinned voyagers from Qarth, coal-black Summer Islanders in feathered cloaks, even masked shadow-binders from Asshai by the Shadow.

Even Mel has her own sort of mask...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Are you sure it's weirwood? I can't recall this was mentioned.

Her ability to speak the Common Tongue might be significant indeed. No accent was mentioned. Though Dany meets a lot of people at the time who would speak with an accent, so it might not have seemed significant to her.

Or could be that is what the mask truyl is for: it's a translator and there's no big 

Hmmm maybe I was making this up? Sorry if so... it’s a red wooden mask for sure, I’ll have to look harder for the Weir part! Till then probably assume I’m conflating it with something else like the Knight of the Laughing Tree’s red face... and that could be a mistake, especially since we see Moqorro has a red mask tattooed on his face.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

That's an interesting parallel that I hadn't considered before.

Also consider "The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." Staying could be expressed as being bound to a place, so this could be a reference to shadowbinding, too.

Daggonit! I forgot that shadowy parts as well Thanks for the reminder.

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'd also wondered about the implications about Patchface possibly being a Drowned Man now. That chucks an extra log on the fire, doesn't it? He seems to draw prophetic powers from the sea, although not having been raised amongst the Ironborn he would lack their religious training, so his 'gift' is wild and untamed. So, should we be looking for more parallels to Aeron Damphair, too? Because if we do, then there's the implication that these characters are working against the interests of their respective 'monarchs'.

Ack! I always go round and round with myself regarding religion in ASOIAF. Most of the time you can see a clear divide in the faiths and tenets. However, you can also see how there could either be no "gods", or that all of the religions are an aspect of the same god, and it is all in how one choses to worship.

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

I'm pretty sure Euron would consider Damphair 'dangerous', though I'd have to re-search the text for evidence. Could there then be other figures in other courts fulfilling similar roles that might help to firm up a pattern?

Hmmm. I am not so sure about this part. Have you had a chance to read the Aeron chapter in TWOW???

I cannot find the actual chapter to read (it is out there), but here is a link to a good breakdown and it does have text in it... https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2016/05/31/full-analysis-of-new-winds-of-winter-excerpt-the-forsaken-aeron-i/

Here is a video if you have about 40 minutes to listen to it.

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I'm not so sure about the 'masks' being a significant link, considering that all Asshai'i are reported to wear masks, and all Volantene slaves are tattooed - unless we can make a case linking Asshai and Volantis more generally? It's a pity so little is known about Asshai and the Shadow, though of course there is at least one version of the origin of dragons as being from the Shadow...

Patcface is a slave from Volantis.

As the moment, Volantis is a hotbed of Red Rahloo (Benerro, Lord of Light temple)  and political activity (slaves, elephants, and tigers, oh my!).

A great re-read regarding Volantis is ADWD, Tyrion VII and VIII.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 hours ago, Zapho said:

Those two quotes aren't really conclusive evidence imo. Bathing in blood to keep young is a common slander people like to heave on femmes fatales. The same thing is rumoured about Daenerys. If Lady Shiera had a reputation for dabbling in the black arts, she probably was no more than fond of reading. 

Pah. I say pah. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

I discounted anything that comes from any of the books that aren't AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC or ADWD. I don't think GRRM will rely on us having read the rest of the supporting text to fully understand the series. I'll feel a bit cheated if at the end of ADOS it turns out the answers were actually hidden within the Dunk and Egg series or the other short stories.

So that leaves you with "wet and shiny eyes" which i think you mean is a reference to the sea (wet) and star (shiny). I don't buy it, its too vague for me. The only instance I saw of a symbolic dream or vision that could allude to her identity is in Dany's last chapter in ADWD where it says Quaithe's mask appeared like starlight (or something to that effect). As I said above that could be a reference to Shiera but IMO Ashara has more plot armor.

What do you know of Bloodraven and Bittersteel and dragons hatching from eggs without reading the ancillary novellas? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

That's a good point, and i don't totally rule out Quaithe being Shiera, but I do think Ashara is more likely. No-one in Dany's party would recognise Shiera as Quaithe so there would be no real need for the mask.

Also when we finally met Bloodraven he revealed himself to Bran and his identity wasn't that significant to the story. His appearance in D&E just provides some interesting background reading. Whereas Quaithe was met in the second book and has very blatantly concealed her real identity and persistently tried to guide Dany.

Are there any hints in the text at all that Quaithe is Ashara? What in Ashara's backstory is there to suggest that she would go off to learn shadowbinding in Asshai? 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

I discounted anything that comes from any of the books that aren't AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC or ADWD. I don't think GRRM will rely on us having read the rest of the supporting text to fully understand the series. I'll feel a bit cheated if at the end of ADOS it turns out the answers were actually hidden within the Dunk and Egg series or the other short stories.

So that leaves you with "wet and shiny eyes" which i think you mean is a reference to the sea (wet) and star (shiny). I don't buy it, its too vague for me. The only instance I saw of a symbolic dream or vision that could allude to her identity is in Dany's last chapter in ADWD where it says Quaithe's mask appeared like starlight (or something to that effect). As I said above that could be a reference to Shiera but IMO Ashara has more plot armor.

I get your outrage Brother.  But believe me, GRRM is the devil and has placed clues in everything associated with this franchise.  Dunc & Egg are rife with clues.  The World Book and I'm certain Fire and Blood will have just as many clues.  There are video games, board games and all this is supposed to mean something on top of a frickin television show complete with histories and lore animations.   It's not right, but it is true and we do have to go beyond the main series for complete or at least better answers.   Get it out Man, your pain is real but you can get past it.  

Besides, everyone knows that Quaithe is Brave Danny Flint skinchanged by Bloodraven.  Sheesh.  But seriously, Stannis, Azor Ahai reborn, has Mel and Victarion has Moqorro, why wouldn't TPTWP have her own Asshaii educated magical seemingly human creature?  

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Zapho said:

Even if she was Shiera, what is the point? Would it tell us anything about Quaithe's agenda? This is not a rhetoric question, I really can't see how this would advance the story or shed some light on what is going on.

There would be an elegance in each of the four great bastards having a role in the current story. Aegor's dream lives on in the Golden Company--the muscle behind The Blackfyre. Daemon lives on in his descendant--Aegon. Brynden is the three-eyed crow--the last greenseer, who has been guiding Bran, but appears to know Jon's identity and presumably understands his role as the prince that was promised. His half sister and paramour, Shiera has guided Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and she has been encouraging her to remember who she is. 

10 hours ago, Zapho said:

Quaithe is clearly interested to get Dany to Asshai with her dragons. 

Nope. When Daenerys arrives in Qarth (Daenerys II, Clash 27), she wrestles between her desire to rest and enjoy nibbling fish and Renly's peach, on one hand and on the other her desire to avenge her house and reclaim her father's crown...

Quote

When all the men had gone, her handmaids stripped off the travel-stained silks she wore, and Dany padded out to where the marble pool sat in the shade of a portico. The water was deliciously cool, and the pool was stocked with tiny golden fish that nibbled curiously at her skin and made her giggle. It felt good to close her eyes and float, knowing she could rest as long as she liked.

...

But before she could do that she must conquer.

...

Her doubts made her shiver. Suddenly the water felt cold to her, and the little fish prickling at her skin annoying.

And then Quaithe, the only person in Qarth outside of her khalasar not trying to exploit Daenerys, advises her...

Quote

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Daenerys III, Clash

Many commenters seem to agree with Daenerys that Quaithe was advising Daenerys to go to Asshai to gain knowledge...

But Quaithe never actually advised Daenerys to go to Asshai. In fact, she would later advise Daenerys to remember who she is: the blood of The Dragon. Rather, Quaithe suggested that Daenerys would not find truth in Qarth.

Quaithe was advising Daenerys that she must apply counter intuition, that she has to go in an opposite direction to get to her destination. To sit the Iron Throne and consolidate her rule over the Seven Kingdoms, Daenerys must give up her desire to live a sheltered peaceful life eating peaches and resting in pools with nibbling fish. She must remember who she is and go back to the Dothraki Sea. 

10 hours ago, Zapho said:

She warns Dany not to trust all the other people who are interested in the dragons. 

Her prophetic abilities seem to be the real thing. 

Among all the people she advises Dany not to trust are those who want her to go to Westeros: Quentyn, Tyrion, the IB, Varys (who I think is the perfumed Seneshal).

"Remember the Undying." The Undying Ones tried to trap Daenerys and tap her power. The characters Quaithe warned Daenerys about want to do the same. Their interests are in Westeros. But Quaithe is reminding Daenerys to remember who she is... the Heir to Aegon the Conqueror. She wants Daenerys to go to Westeros to fulfill her destiny. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Probably worth pointing out here that shadowbinders wear masks:

Even Mel has her own sort of mask...

Convenient plot device for an author who wants to conceal the identity of a mysterious character, no? 

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Besides, everyone knows that Quaithe is Brave Danny Flint skinchanged by Bloodraven.  Sheesh.  But seriously, Stannis, Azor Ahai reborn, has Mel and Victarion has Moqorro, why wouldn't TPTWP have her own Asshaii educated magical seemingly human creature?  

With teachers like moqorro (that did god knows what to to heal victarion's hand) and mel (that sucks stannis life to make shadow babies) who needs the others?

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Zapho said:

Even if she was Shiera, what is the point? Would it tell us anything about Quaithe's agenda? This is not a rhetoric question, I really can't see how this would advance the story or shed some light on what is going on.

Quaithe is clearly interested to get Dany to Asshai with her dragons. 

She warns Dany not to trust all the other people who are interested in the dragons. 

Her prophetic abilities seem to be the real thing. 

Among all the people she advises Dany not to trust are those who want her to go to Westeros: Quentyn, Tyrion, the IB, Varys (who I think is the perfumed Seneshal).

You know how Varys is secretly supporting that underground Blackfyre movement and the Northern Lords can't stand Roose and The BWB has more supporters than anyone in the Riverlands?  If Quaithe is a Targaryan, particularly Sheira Seastar, she could be a sort of fire spirit guide (Sheira is said to have studied sorcery) warning Dany off the people who will help her achieve her PERSONAL goals--taking Westeros by Fire and Blood.   Sheira or any old school Targ would naturally want Dany to take her dragons to the place where magic still resides and thrives, if that is a word to be used in conjunction with Asshai.   The Targs have lost their groove with dragons, specifically hatching, much less bonding and riding.  Dany could possibly learn the old magic or skill in Asshai, where dragons are said to have originated. 

I find it curious that Quaithe warns Dany off everyone who could possibly help her reach her personal goals.   The marriage compact with Dorne.  Tyrion's dragon knowledge.  Victarion's ships.  Moqorro's first aid treatments and a perfumed Seneschal who may or may not want Dany in Westeros.  If Quaithe is all that and a bag of chips why doesn't she tell Dany about The Others?  Aegon?   Her Great Uncle Aemon or her nephew Jon Snow?  How about Great-Great Uncle Bloodraven?  I don't think Quaithe is necessarily guiding Dany for Dany's good, I think she's trying very hard to influence her for the sake of Valyrian fire magic.  

Just some thoughts. 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, divica said:

With teachers like moqorro (that did god knows what to to heal victarion's hand) and mel (that sucks stannis life to make shadow babies) who needs the others?

Moqorro is Florence Nightingale and Marcus Welby. M.D.  

[divica]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know how Varys is secretly supporting that underground Blackfyre movement and the Northern Lords can't stand Roose and The BWB has more supporters than anyone in the Riverlands?  If Quaithe is a Targaryan, particularly Sheira Seastar, she could be a sort of fire spirit guide (Sheira is said to have studied sorcery) warning Dany off the people who will help her achieve her PERSONAL goals--taking Westeros by Fire and Blood.   Sheira or any old school Targ would naturally want Dany to take her dragons to the place where magic still resides and thrives, if that is a word to be used in conjunction with Asshai.   The Targs have lost their groove with dragons, specifically hatching, much less bonding and riding.  Dany could possibly learn the old magic or skill in Asshai, where dragons are said to have originated. 

I find it curious that Quaithe warns Dany off everyone who could possibly help her reach her personal goals.   The marriage compact with Dorne.  Tyrion's dragon knowledge.  Victarion's ships.  Moqorro's first aid treatments and a perfumed Seneschal who may or may not want Dany in Westeros.  If Quaithe is all that and a bag of chips why doesn't she tell Dany about The Others?  Aegon?   Her Great Uncle Aemon or her nephew Jon Snow?  How about Great-Great Uncle Bloodraven?  I don't think Quaithe is necessarily guiding Dany for Dany's good, I think she's trying very hard to influence her for the sake of Valyrian fire magic.  

Just some thoughts. 

Do you know other interesting things?

danny dragons came from asshai, when jorah was still working with illirio (in got basically) whenever something goes wrong he is always saying that danny should run to asshai (it happens at least 3 or more times, I think), the azor ahai profecy is from asshai, people from asshai believe in R'hllr and if they have similar powers to mel (very likely) have visions of the future and present...

So are we supposed to believe that nobody in asshai in the last years had a vision of danny dragons? that there isn t some plot to use danny to fullfil the AA profecy? that they aren t using the AA=danny to  expand the religion of R'hllor? That they don t have a plan for danny that doesn t involve the others (if they thought they were such a threat why wouldn t they have warned danny?)?

In another I talked about how the red priests in asshai could have used the ptwp profecy and say that the prince would be the new AA and put religious propaganda in their AA profecy...

 

ps. I forgot to add that mirri (that was essencial for danny hatching the dragons) studied in asshai and that quaithe which is trying to guide danny is from asshai... nothing to suspect here...