Jump to content

Roose Bolton's Loyalty


Lord of Raventree Hall

Recommended Posts

Okay, to start, I want to say I subscribe to the theory that Roose Bolton was essentially disloyal to Robb from the very beginning. However, my particular theory I present here while rereading ACoK is that for a short time (while taking Harrenhall) he was actually loyal. I admit my evidence is small, but my reasons are pretty simple.

1. Ramsay had been captured and was probably presumed dead by Roose at this point. I think Ramsay was essential to Roose's planning. He needed him to destroy Winterfell. What is convenient here for Roose is that he can benifit from Ramsay with little risk to himself. If Ramsay fucks up, he simply says something like he did after he thinks Ramsay is dead. He is treacherous, bla bla, ect. If Ramsay succeeds he has a foot in the North toward removing the Starks. So, when he thinks Ramsay is dead, he gets to work denying any affection to or orders to Ramsay and is loyal to Robb for a time. 

2. Every battle that takes place with Roose in charge cause huge losses for Robb's men/other bannermen, not Dreadfort men, except when he takes Harrenhall. It is one of his most successful battles.  Granted Arya and Jaqen help, but I think he would have taken it anyways. There is no reason to believe that any Northern lords would have died in the attack. If Edmure had been told Robb's plans (side note : I blame Robb and not Edmure for this. However Catelyn did give Edmure good advice here, another example of how good advice from Catelyn was ignored) and Tywin had gone west, truly they could have trapped Tywin between three armies. I think Roose saw Robb's star possibly rising at this point, and without Ramsay, he saw his best plan as supporting Robb. Then Tywin and Garlan, ect. smash Stannis, and Roose sees Robb as the loser again. 

Anyways, maybe its a bit pointless, but I think Roose was loyal to Robb for a bit, and Robb's own lack of orders and planning gave Roose an excuse to revolt against his lord. Heck, actualy it was Edmure who ordered Roose to take Harrenhall. Robb just kind of left him there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, to start, I want to say I subscribe to the theory that Roose Bolton was essentially disloyal to Robb from the very beginning. However, my particular theory I present here while rereading ACoK is that for a short time (while taking Harrenhall) he was actually loyal. I admit my evidence is small, but my reasons are pretty simple.

1. Ramsay had been captured and was probably presumed dead by Roose at this point. I think Ramsay was essential to Roose's planning. He needed him to destroy Winterfell. What is convenient here for Roose is that he can benifit from Ramsay with little risk to himself. If Ramsay fucks up, he simply says something like he did after he thinks Ramsay is dead. He is treacherous, bla bla, ect. If Ramsay succeeds he has a foot in the North toward removing the Starks. So, when he thinks Ramsay is dead, he gets to work denying any affection to or orders to Ramsay and is loyal to Robb for a time. 

2. Every battle that takes place with Roose in charge cause huge losses for Robb's men/other bannermen, not Dreadfort men, except when he takes Harrenhall. It is one of his most successful battles.  Granted Arya and Jaqen help, but I think he would have taken it anyways. There is no reason to believe that any Northern lords would have died in the attack. If Edmure had been told Robb's plans (side note : I blame Robb and not Edmure for this. However Catelyn did give Edmure good advice here, another example of how good advice from Catelyn was ignored) and Tywin had gone west, truly they could have trapped Tywin between three armies. I think Roose saw Robb's star possibly rising at this point, and without Ramsay, he saw his best plan as supporting Robb. Then Tywin and Garlan, ect. smash Stannis, and Roose sees Robb as the loser again. 

Anyways, maybe its a bit pointless, but I think Roose was loyal to Robb for a bit, and Robb's own lack of orders and planning gave Roose an excuse to revolt against his lord. Heck, actualy it was Edmure who ordered Roose to take Harrenhall. Robb just kind of left him there. 

Meh, probably right? I mean it's pretty obvious, Roose was the puppeteer behind what Ramsey was doing in ACOK. He wouldn't take Hornwood without Roose's support, nor would he be able to find a dozen men much less the amount  he promised to Theon without Roose. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I watched the show first way before reading the books I studied Roose's actions carefully while reading. I think that he asked Catelyn the right question no one dared to ask in AGoT after Robb called his banners: "What did you do with the Imp? It would be good to question such a valuable hostage". (something like this)

After Catelyn answered that she released him after he was proven innocent via trial by combat, other lords were murmuring in dissaproval and Roose kept his mouth shot. Here he was already sniffing what sort of people these Starks are (Ned he knew better but Ned wasn't here). There is the first time he saw weakness in them, Catelyn specifically. Releasing Tywin's son? I mean who does that? Meh, flay him and milk his secrets out, works every time. 

After that, I think you did a good analysis on the subject and I kinda agree that his alliance was changing as quick as the things on the map were changing. The author confirmed this too. Sniffing, testing the pulse, and then act in a way which is in his best interest. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Others might say that Bolton's treachery started earlier (there's some debate about whether he sabotaged the Battle of the Green Fork), but I think it began at the Blackwater and when Robb lost the Freys, when Robb was clearly finished. Roose, I think, is first and foremost an opportunist. He was going along with Robb while he was winning, but ready to ditch him when necessary. 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I subscribe to the theory that Roose Bolton was essentially disloyal to Robb from the very beginning. However, my particular theory I present here while rereading ACoK is that for a short time (while taking Harrenhall) he was actually loyal. I admit my evidence is small, but my reasons are pretty simple

Just to clarify, are you saying that Roose was undermining Robb throughout, apart from a brief spell when he was taking Harrenhal, or that up until after that he was working along with him? If the former, I slightly disagree. I think the Dreadfort's best policy up until the Blackwater and the Westerling wedding was to continue to support Robb in winning the war, while making grabs for land up North (using the deniability of Ramsey being a rogue) and making a marriage alliance with the Freys. I don't think he actively sought Robb's demise until the Blackwater. Bolton may have seen the rebellion as an opportunity to defeat the Starks once and for all, but he doesn't appear to have made any moves, except to strengthen his own position, until the Blackwater. I'm not saying he was loyal to Robb, I think the only person Roose is loyal to is Roose, but I don't think there was any firm plan until Robb was done for. 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Ramsay was essential to Roose's planning. He needed him to destroy Winterfell.

I think Ramsey was extremely useful to Roose's planning, but not really essential. Roose had other men up north. Certainly, Ramsey's blend of intelligence and savagery made him an ideal catspaw, but Roose seems like the kind of guy who has a pretty deep bench of scheming psychopaths on the payroll. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

After that, I think you did a good analysis on the subject and I kinda agree that his alliance was changing as quick as the things on the map were changing. The author confirmed this too. Sniffing, testing the pulse, and then act in a way which is in his best interest. 

Exactly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Just to clarify, are you saying that Roose was undermining Robb throughout, apart from a brief spell when he was taking Harrenhal, or that up until after that he was working along with him? If the former, I slightly disagree. I think the Dreadfort's best policy up until the Blackwater and the Westerling wedding was to continue to support Robb in winning the war, while making grabs for land up North (using the deniability of Ramsey being a rogue) and making a marriage alliance with the Freys. I don't think he actively sought Robb's demise until the Blackwater. Bolton may have seen the rebellion as an opportunity to defeat the Starks once and for all, but he doesn't appear to have made any moves, except to strengthen his own position, until the Blackwater. I'm not saying he was loyal to Robb, I think the only person Roose is loyal to is Roose, but I don't think there was any firm plan until Robb was done for. 

I guess I subscribe to the theory that it began on the Green Fork and he may have purposely took heavier losses than he needed to, chiefly of those lord's men most loyal to Robb. I do agree with you I don't think he had a firm plan yet, but was considering what he wanted to do. Then Ramsay got captured(killed in his point of view)  and he swung toward Robb. At that point Robb was winning battles which probably helped swing him that way. Then the Blackwater and the loss of the Freys, and probably a letter from Ramsay. He went into full rebellion mode and probably order Ramsay to attack Winterfell. Part of what I was thinking is if Ramsay had failed and died, and Rodrick Cassel had recaptured Winterfell perhaps he would have kept his options more open. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I guess I subscribe to the theory that it began on the Green Fork and he may have purposely took heavier losses than he needed to, chiefly of those lord's men most loyal to Robb. I do agree with you I don't think he had a firm plan yet, but was considering what he wanted to do. Then Ramsay got captured(killed in his point of view)  and he swung toward Robb. At that point Robb was winning battles which probably helped swing him that way. Then the Blackwater and the loss of the Freys, and probably a letter from Ramsay. He went into full rebellion mode and probably order Ramsay to attack Winterfell. Part of what I was thinking is if Ramsay had failed and died, and Rodrick Cassel had recaptured Winterfell perhaps he would have kept his options more open.

Thanks for clarifying. I think we largely agree, except I don't think Roose was leaning so far in the direction of undermining Robb that early, and I don't subscribe to the idea that he sabotaged his rivals at the Green Fork in that way, Though, I do accept that he may have taken the opportunity to put his rivals in the areas of greater danger. That's just good chess. 

I think it was more events in the South than in the North that influenced his final decision. Ramsay's role could have been played by one of his other followers. His decision to make his big move, and side with the Lannisters, was more down to Robb's cause falling apart in my opinion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He definitely fought the battle of the green fork with the aim of increasing his hand as much as possible.  Manderlys son is literally the only knight on Tyrions side of the battle, no coincidence, and is this where the Hornwood family dies as well?  Convenient that Ramsay is able to act the quickest when this happens is it not?  Add to it that Rooses force was the reserve that doesn't even fight and it is pretty damn obvious.  I also think there is no way in the world Ramsay could've gotten the Dreadfort garrison to attack Winterfell without Rooses blessing.

I always believed he was sabotaging the effort at the green fork because there was no need for the battle to be fought.  It is fighting the battle which lets Tywin know Robb is not there and causes Tywin to retreat back to Harrenhall.  Had Tywin dug in on a hill a day- a few days north of Tywin he would've bought Robb more time and inflicted many more casualties on Tywin if not defeated him outright.  Tywin rightfully knew time was not on his side, he had to defeat Robb before the Vale entered the war, and before Renly or Stannis took Kings Landing.  If Roose had dug in on a hill Tywin may have felt he had no choice but to attack.

One of Robbs biggest failures in the war was his lack of use of Rooses part of the army.  Even after the loss he had almost 10k infantry that never gets used.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

He definitely fought the battle of the green fork with the aim of increasing his hand as much as possible.  Manderlys son is literally the only knight on Tyrions side of the battle, no coincidence, and is this where the Hornwood family dies as well?  Convenient that Ramsay is able to act the quickest when this happens is it not?  Add to it that Rooses force was the reserve that doesn't even fight and it is pretty damn obvious.  I also think there is no way in the world Ramsay could've gotten the Dreadfort garrison to attack Winterfell without Rooses blessing.

I always believed he was sabotaging the effort at the green fork because there was no need for the battle to be fought.  It is fighting the battle which lets Tywin know Robb is not there and causes Tywin to retreat back to Harrenhall.  Had Tywin dug in on a hill a day- a few days north of Tywin he would've bought Robb more time and inflicted many more casualties on Tywin if not defeated him outright.  Tywin rightfully knew time was not on his side, he had to defeat Robb before the Vale entered the war, and before Renly or Stannis took Kings Landing.  If Roose had dug in on a hill Tywin may have felt he had no choice but to attack.

One of Robbs biggest failures in the war was his lack of use of Rooses part of the army.  Even after the loss he had almost 10k infantry that never gets used.

Totally agree.

1. He sabotaged the battle on the Green Fork. 

2. Ordered Ramsay to take over and sack Winterfell. 

The Stark-haters who justify Roose's actions and try to twist his story as someone who did just everything fine and was loyal to Robb until the RW when he "didn't have a choice" but to kill kis king, avoid the question: Why Ramsay did spare Big and Little Walder in Winterfell? Because he was merciful? Or because Roose told him so? How in the world would Ramsay know who to spare knowing how sadistic he is? If Ramsay wasn't informed of this he would've seen fresh young flaying-worthy meat in two Walders.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Totally agree.

1. He sabotaged the battle on the Green Fork. 

2. Ordered Ramsay to take over and sack Winterfell. 

The Stark-haters who justify Roose's actions and try to twist his story as someone who did just everything fine and was loyal to Robb until the RW when he "didn't have a choice" but to kill kis king, avoid the question: Why Ramsay did spare Big and Little Walder in Winterfell? Because he was merciful? Or because Roose told him so? How in the world would Ramsay know who to spare knowing how sadistic he is? If Ramsay wasn't informed of this he would've seen fresh young flaying-worthy meat in two Walders.

 

Excellent point about the Walders.  Very strong evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, probably right? I mean it's pretty obvious, Roose was the puppeteer behind what Ramsey was doing in ACOK. He wouldn't take Hornwood without Roose's support, nor would he be able to find a dozen men much less the amount  he promised to Theon without Roose. 

Roose only allows Ramsay to think he has power.

10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Okay, to start, I want to say I subscribe to the theory that Roose Bolton was essentially disloyal to Robb from the very beginning. However, my particular theory I present here while rereading ACoK is that for a short time (while taking Harrenhall) he was actually loyal. I admit my evidence is small, but my reasons are pretty simple.

1. Ramsay had been captured and was probably presumed dead by Roose at this point. I think Ramsay was essential to Roose's planning. He needed him to destroy Winterfell. What is convenient here for Roose is that he can benifit from Ramsay with little risk to himself. If Ramsay fucks up, he simply says something like he did after he thinks Ramsay is dead. He is treacherous, bla bla, ect. If Ramsay succeeds he has a foot in the North toward removing the Starks. So, when he thinks Ramsay is dead, he gets to work denying any affection to or orders to Ramsay and is loyal to Robb for a time. 

2. Every battle that takes place with Roose in charge cause huge losses for Robb's men/other bannermen, not Dreadfort men, except when he takes Harrenhall. It is one of his most successful battles.  Granted Arya and Jaqen help, but I think he would have taken it anyways. There is no reason to believe that any Northern lords would have died in the attack. If Edmure had been told Robb's plans (side note : I blame Robb and not Edmure for this. However Catelyn did give Edmure good advice here, another example of how good advice from Catelyn was ignored) and Tywin had gone west, truly they could have trapped Tywin between three armies. I think Roose saw Robb's star possibly rising at this point, and without Ramsay, he saw his best plan as supporting Robb. Then Tywin and Garlan, ect. smash Stannis, and Roose sees Robb as the loser again. 

Anyways, maybe its a bit pointless, but I think Roose was loyal to Robb for a bit, and Robb's own lack of orders and planning gave Roose an excuse to revolt against his lord. Heck, actualy it was Edmure who ordered Roose to take Harrenhall. Robb just kind of left him there. 

I also believe Roose was disloyal to Robb Stark since the beginning.  Then again, Robb chose to rebel against their king.  I can see why the Boltons might think it's wrong to side with a rebel but he had to go along with it for the time being until he can find the opening to stop Robb Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Totally agree.

1. He sabotaged the battle on the Green Fork. 

2. Ordered Ramsay to take over and sack Winterfell. 

The Stark-haters who justify Roose's actions and try to twist his story as someone who did just everything fine and was loyal to Robb until the RW when he "didn't have a choice" but to kill kis king, avoid the question: Why Ramsay did spare Big and Little Walder in Winterfell? Because he was merciful? Or because Roose told him so? How in the world would Ramsay know who to spare knowing how sadistic he is? If Ramsay wasn't informed of this he would've seen fresh young flaying-worthy meat in two Walders.

 

I don't think you have to be a "Stark hater" (why hate fictional characters?) to think Bolton's treachery started later.

I thought he saved the Frey's because his father had married into that house. Yeah, he was in communication with Roose, and Rose obviously ordered him to sack Winterfell. The fall of Winterfell and the Blackwater provided them with an opportunity.

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Roose only allows Ramsay to think he has power.

I also believe Roose was disloyal to Robb Stark since the beginning.  Then again, Robb chose to rebel against their king.  I can see why the Boltons might think it's wrong to side with a rebel but he had to go along with it for the time being until he can find the opening to stop Robb Stark.

At no point did the Bolton's give a fig about the morality of rebelling against the IT. It was opportunism, plain and simple. And horrifying. And well played.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think you have to be a "Stark hater" (why hate fictional characters?) to think Bolton's treachery started later.

I reffered to Stark haters who justify Roose's actions constantly taken against Robb. You'd be surprised how many people even admit they are biased against the Starks and hate them (Though I agree it's weird. Who knows.)

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I thought he saved the Frey's because his father had married into that house. Yeah, he was in communication with Roose, and Rose obviously ordered him to sack Winterfell. The fall of Winterfell and the Blackwater provided them with an opportunity.

If he took Winterfell on behalf of his father, than the sacking, burning and killing almost al the people in Winterfell is part of an ongoing treason scheme. Not a cause for creating the scheme. Yes, the Blackwater might be, which was before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I reffered to Stark haters who justify Roose's actions constantly taken against Robb. You'd be surprised how many people even admit they are biased against the Starks and hate them (Though I agree it's weird. Who knows.)

If he took Winterfell on behalf of his father, than the sacking, burning and killing almost al the people in Winterfell is part of an ongoing treason scheme. Not a cause for creating the scheme. Yes, the Blackwater might be, which was before.

We don't all justify what Roose did.  Some of us do.  I don't.  I can and do, however, justify what Walder did. 

Roose needed an heir.  A legitimate heir.  He only had Ramsay.  He was desperate to get Ramsay made legit.  I think that was his motivation for working against Robb.  The only person who can make this happen is King Joffrey.  Roose must have known that Robb will lose to the Lannisters in the end and that's not good for his plans.  He needed to have Ramsay made legit and it needs to stick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

We don't all justify what Roose did.  Some of us do.  I don't.  I can and do, however, justify what Walder did. 

Roose needed an heir.  A legitimate heir.  He only had Ramsay.  He was desperate to get Ramsay made legit.  I think that was his motivation for working against Robb.  The only person who can make this happen is King Joffrey.  Roose must have known that Robb will lose to the Lannisters in the end and that's not good for his plans.  He needed to have Ramsay made legit and it needs to stick.

I understand all of this. It might be that's true, or just your point of view. Because, if Roose impregnates fat Walda, he might name this child his heir. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Roose was just an opportunist, neither really for nor against Robb or anyone else, in the grand scheme of things. What will gain him a little bit more power and influence, a little bit more wealth? That's what he'll do. If he won at the Green Fork then great, but it not, he still did what he was commanded to do. In the process, by placing his rivals in harms way, he strengthened his hand up North. So regardless of who won the war Roose would have great influence among his neighbors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I find interesting with Roose at the very beginning is that he reported himself with a lot of fighting men.  We know the Dustins (probably Ryswells, too) only sent as few men as they dared when the banners were called.  We know some of the Manderly and Umbers were held back to build ships.  Roderick had a significant group to hold Winterfell.   But Roose showed up with full support.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  We know some of the Manderly and Umbers were held back to build ships. 

Nope. The shipbuilding was agreed by Rodrik in ACOK, not by Robb. Men were never held back for that process and the Umbers even complain that the Greatjon took too many men and that half their harvest has been lost as a result. 

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Roderick had a significant group to hold Winterfell.   

Nope, Rodrik was left with nothing but untrained green boys. His job is basically impossible, to simultaneously recuit and train while having to keep the peace in the North or even from outside attack. 

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

But Roose showed up with full support.   

Obviously he did. He, like Umber, Karstark, Hornwood, Cerwwyn etc is ambitious and the best way to advance in the eyes of Stark snr and jnr would be to bring as many men as possible which would also increase their chances of senior command positions within Robb's rank. Lady Dustin can't advance her status in the military field due to her sex so there is a practical reason as for her actions as well as an emotional one due to her distaste of the Starks. 

 

3 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

I think Roose was just an opportunist, neither really for nor against Robb or anyone else, in the grand scheme of things. What will gain him a little bit more power and influence, a little bit more wealth? That's what he'll do. If he won at the Green Fork then great, but it not, he still did what he was commanded to do. In the process, by placing his rivals in harms way, he strengthened his hand up North. So regardless of who won the war Roose would have great influence among his neighbors.

 

Yup. This is pretty much what GRRM says on the subject. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1149

 

I get that Robb fans would prefer that the Westerlings drugged him, that the Freys were always going to betray him or that Roose was betraying him from the start as they don't like the idea of Robb being partly responsible for his fate. 

 

Logically there are clear reasons why Roose organises Duskendale and the Red Wedding, he has an alternative offer for his services. No one is rewarding him to purposefully lose on the Green Fork, all that would do is put himself in harms way, have his reputation with the Starks and other Northern nobility fall and prolong a (costly) war he has no real passion for. 

 

Roose wants two things from the battle of the Green Fork, either to win which results in high status and huge riches from all the ransoms while ending the war or to lose with as few Bolton casualties as possible as the more Bolton men who die the weaker he becomes regardless of the war. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...