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Ancient Order of the Sword and Star


LynnS

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7 hours ago, Ran said:

I mean that for him it'd be visually boring if all but a handful of houses had 5-pointed stars. He varied it in various ways. :) See House Templeton for an example, where he decided to keep one 7-pointed star but changed the rest to 6-pointed.

You just saved me lots of research time lol i stay clear of sigils though after trying to figure out a merman link between the GreyIron sigil and House Manderly's sigil having to do with the crown and it's points haha. Seems like it would be a good place to hide clues, but kind of glad he didn't hide much in them, at least with points of the star or crown.

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21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Cersei refers to stories of the ancient order of star and sword; so I don't think it's coincidental that House Dayne's sigil is a star and sword or that the swords and stars of the faith retain a relic of that lore in their own charges and devices.  The swords of the warriors sons have a crystal in their pommel and I think this is a reference to the constellation the sword of the morning with a star like a diamond in it's pommel.  So there is a persistent iconography between the three that I don't think can be dismissed because there is no current connection or history between House Dayne, or more specifically the Dawn Sword and the Faith Militant.    

I beg to differ on some points: Cersei never says 'ancient' - it is clear from her conversation with Lady Merryweather it is the Faith Militant prior to its disbanding by Maegor and Jaehaerys she was talking about, and not really 'ancient' in any meaningful sense.

I'd really like to know more about Westerosi astronomy... it's clear why the constellation of the Sword of the Morning got its name, but does this pre-date the creation of Dawn the sword as wielded by the human Sword of the Morning? Was the knight named after the constellation, or the other way round?

We know that most storied swords have decorative pommels, and many have gems there (ie Longclaw has a wolf's head with jewelled eyes, Oathkeeper has a ruby iirc and so on, can't recall any more now, but you get the idea ;) ) so it's not an especially unusual feature for the swords of the Warrior's Sons to bear the symbol of their faith on their pommels. What is interesting though is that the Wildlings know the constellation by the same name, though there are many which they give different names to those used south of the Wall. So I'd conjecture the name for the constellation derives from a First Men heritage, whereas many of the other constellations (in the south) have been drawn from Sevener influences:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

The last night fell black and moonless, but for once the sky was clear. "I am going up the hill to look for Ghost," he told the Thenns at the cave mouth, and they grunted and let him pass.

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

GRRM has been true to Earthly astrology in as much as he created 12 houses (zodiac signs) and the classical seven planets for Planetos, although he has veered off in the details. For us, the 'red wanderer' would be Mars, so it would have otherwise been expected to represent the Warrior rather than the Smith.

 

The more I think about it, the more I feel the Faith Militant harks back to the Andal invasion rather than anything to do with the First Men - there are references to the Andals carving 7-pointed stars into their flesh in a similar manner to the Poor Fellows, and they did seem to have a particular streak of religious intolerance as well, burning down weirwoods and trying to forcibly convert followers of the Old Gods, such as the Blackwoods (yeah, yeah, I know: "Nobody expects the Andal Inquisition!" :D )

I've also gone back a bit on my earlier post linking an early Dayne to the Last Hero. Although we have little and less information of the LH, two points which crop up repeatedly are that: he had a 'dragonsteel' sword - long before Valyrian steel was known in Westeros, and that this sword was broken by the cold. Dawn is explicitly described as being unlike Valyrian steel, and yet we also know that Jon's VS bastard sword (Longclaw) holds up against the Other, whereas a regular steel sword in the hands of Waymar Royce snaps from the cold...  So we have a contradiction in the legend, because if it was dragonsteel it shouldn't have broken. Does this mean the legend is wrong about the dragonsteel sword of the LH? And if so - being wrong about the most symbolic element of the entire story, ie a 'magical sword' - how much of the story can we believe at all? Anyway, back to the Dayne idea - Dawn is not broken, so it is most unlikely to have been the LH's sword, hence why I think I have to scratch my 'Dayne Last Hero' theory, for now at least.

But I'm still pretty convinced that a 'sword and star' could be a reference to a Dayne in the same sense as 'a wolf' means a Stark, 'a lion' means a Lannister, or 'a kraken' means a Greyjoy - it seems common practice to refer to the highborn by reference to their heraldry. Now we might extrapolate 'the wolves' to mean House Stark, and by those lights 'the swords and stars' could be used as a reference to House Dayne.

That the smallfolk call the Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows of the Faith Militant 'the swords and stars' also, could be accounted for in three different ways: (i) it is simply a (coincidental) reference to the heraldry of the two Orders with no deeper meaning; (ii) there is a resemblance, probably in the function, between House Dayne and the Faith Militant; or (iii) there is an actual connection between House Dayne and the Faith Militant.

My thoughts go:

(i) "coincidence"? This is Westeros, what you smoking???

(ii) middle path - a noble, holy calling to defend the Gods (Old, I suspect, not the seven, originally) on the part of House Dayne; possibly a recognition for service in the Battle for the Dawn, and perhaps that 'the sword called Dawn' is actually 'the Sword of the Dawn Battle' after all.

(iii) not convinced, given that the semi-canonical King of the Board has reminded us at least twice now that the Dayne's heraldic star has eight points, and a seven-pointed star is required to infer a link to the Faith or Andal ancestry.

In short, I think there's a parallel, but not a connection berween House Dayne and the Faith Militant.

"We look up at the same (swords and) stars, and see such different things"

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12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I beg to differ on some points: Cersei never says 'ancient' - it is clear from her conversation with Lady Merryweather it is the Faith Militant prior to its disbanding by Maegor and Jaehaerys she was talking about, and not really 'ancient' in any meaningful sense.

Yes, looking the passages again, it wasn't Cersei who characterized the Faith as ancient.  However, the High Sparrow refers to the Faith as an ancient order and I don't think 300 years since it's last appearance counts as ancient in my books.   There is still the iconography of the shining sword in the darkness.  Cersei adds information concerning tales about the Faith which include some surprises.  There may have been dragonslayers in their company the last time they were formed; but sorcerers and demon hunters?  Doesn't that seem a bit of anomaly to you given the makeup of the current bunch?

I agree that George is borrowing constellations from our own astronomy: Orion's Sword (Sword of the Morning) and Draco or Ouroborous (The Ice Dragon).  The blue star in the eye of the dragon rider is equivalent to a pole star; in this case Thuban, which was the pole star some 5,000 years ago. The diamond in the sword of the morning would be it's southern equivalent - at least in GRRM's story. The middle star or brightest star of the three stars that make up the sword is actually the Orion nebula.  The constellation Orion is also referred to as the Hunter.  So GRRM seems to be mining from Greek mythology regarding the Hunter also personified as the Hero.  To layer onto that reference; there is also Herne the Hunter, one aspect of the Horned God/Lord which Martin mixes into Wildling lore.  Make of that what you will.  Add to this the planetary bodies the Red Wanderer (Mars) and references to characters as evening stars or morning stars (Venus).  With Venus, we get the christian references to 'fallen star':

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

Whatever GRRM's intentions regarding the number of points on a star (a mundane exercise in heraldry);  the notion that there is no connection whatsoever between the sword of the morning and religious order that may have formed around it; or around the one who carried the sword in ancient times, isn't something that I will dismiss.  Heros will always have those who swear fealty and pledge their allegiance. The only thing the Faith is missing right now is someone to follow in that capacity and the Dawn Sword is waiting for someone to claim it.

 


 

   

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15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Unless im wrong and their was only one magic sword back then. If that's the case though, was it fire, or ice?

Melisandre's attempt to make Stannis into the Warrior of Light suggests that the sword is a burning sword.  Although Aemon makes it clear that the sword has no heat; so it's artifice that Mel employs.  That could go two ways since I think Mel knows more than she says and the sword doesn't actually have any heat or the burning sword that Aemon expects is something else.  I'm inclined to think that Dany wields a burning sword in the form a dragon.  

The Wall itself is described as a sword to the west of Castle Black and a serpent to the east and this brings to mind Mel's words to Jon that Wall has power that he can use if he chooses.  The power of ice or fire depending on the sorcerer of magical items that are employed.  The Wall is a hinge that not only connects places but objects to each other.  We're also told that sorcery is a sword without a hilt and there is no safe way to grasp it.

I think we see something of this concept when Mel puts on a display of burning Rattleshirt, glamoring Stannis sword and the horn that she has supposedly destroyed.  The magic nearly gets away from her until Jon kills Rattleshirt.  It's the description of the Wall that is so interesting with fiery colors rippling through it, a storm of light and perhaps not just a reflection of the display she puts on but a connection to the power of the Wall. I think that opens the possibility that the Dawn Sword can connect to the power of the Wall as well.

A burning sword doesn't necessarily have to burn with heat unless it comes into contact with something that burns with the cold; not unlike the affect of dragonglass on White Walkers. 

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14 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I beg to differ on some points: Cersei never says 'ancient' - it is clear from her conversation with Lady Merryweather it is the Faith Militant prior to its disbanding by Maegor and Jaehaerys she was talking about, and not really 'ancient' in any meaningful sense.

I'd really like to know more about Westerosi astronomy... it's clear why the constellation of the Sword of the Morning got its name, but does this pre-date the creation of Dawn the sword as wielded by the human Sword of the Morning? Was the knight named after the constellation, or the other way round?

We know that most storied swords have decorative pommels, and many have gems there (ie Longclaw has a wolf's head with jewelled eyes, Oathkeeper has a ruby iirc and so on, can't recall any more now, but you get the idea ;) ) so it's not an especially unusual feature for the swords of the Warrior's Sons to bear the symbol of their faith on their pommels. What is interesting though is that the Wildlings know the constellation by the same name, though there are many which they give different names to those used south of the Wall. So I'd conjecture the name for the constellation derives from a First Men heritage, whereas many of the other constellations (in the south) have been drawn from Sevener influences:

GRRM has been true to Earthly astrology in as much as he created 12 houses (zodiac signs) and the classical seven planets for Planetos, although he has veered off in the details. For us, the 'red wanderer' would be Mars, so it would have otherwise been expected to represent the Warrior rather than the Smith.

 

The more I think about it, the more I feel the Faith Militant harks back to the Andal invasion rather than anything to do with the First Men - there are references to the Andals carving 7-pointed stars into their flesh in a similar manner to the Poor Fellows, and they did seem to have a particular streak of religious intolerance as well, burning down weirwoods and trying to forcibly convert followers of the Old Gods, such as the Blackwoods (yeah, yeah, I know: "Nobody expects the Andal Inquisition!" :D )

I've also gone back a bit on my earlier post linking an early Dayne to the Last Hero. Although we have little and less information of the LH, two points which crop up repeatedly are that: he had a 'dragonsteel' sword - long before Valyrian steel was known in Westeros, and that this sword was broken by the cold. Dawn is explicitly described as being unlike Valyrian steel, and yet we also know that Jon's VS bastard sword (Longclaw) holds up against the Other, whereas a regular steel sword in the hands of Waymar Royce snaps from the cold...  So we have a contradiction in the legend, because if it was dragonsteel it shouldn't have broken. Does this mean the legend is wrong about the dragonsteel sword of the LH? And if so - being wrong about the most symbolic element of the entire story, ie a 'magical sword' - how much of the story can we believe at all? Anyway, back to the Dayne idea - Dawn is not broken, so it is most unlikely to have been the LH's sword, hence why I think I have to scratch my 'Dayne Last Hero' theory, for now at least.

But I'm still pretty convinced that a 'sword and star' could be a reference to a Dayne in the same sense as 'a wolf' means a Stark, 'a lion' means a Lannister, or 'a kraken' means a Greyjoy - it seems common practice to refer to the highborn by reference to their heraldry. Now we might extrapolate 'the wolves' to mean House Stark, and by those lights 'the swords and stars' could be used as a reference to House Dayne.

That the smallfolk call the Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows of the Faith Militant 'the swords and stars' also, could be accounted for in three different ways: (i) it is simply a (coincidental) reference to the heraldry of the two Orders with no deeper meaning; (ii) there is a resemblance, probably in the function, between House Dayne and the Faith Militant; or (iii) there is an actual connection between House Dayne and the Faith Militant.

My thoughts go:

(i) "coincidence"? This is Westeros, what you smoking???

(ii) middle path - a noble, holy calling to defend the Gods (Old, I suspect, not the seven, originally) on the part of House Dayne; possibly a recognition for service in the Battle for the Dawn, and perhaps that 'the sword called Dawn' is actually 'the Sword of the Dawn Battle' after all.

(iii) not convinced, given that the semi-canonical King of the Board has reminded us at least twice now that the Dayne's heraldic star has eight points, and a seven-pointed star is required to infer a link to the Faith or Andal ancestry.

In short, I think there's a parallel, but not a connection berween House Dayne and the Faith Militant.

"We look up at the same (swords and) stars, and see such different things"

Thanks for that! It was really nice to read :) 

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

To layer onto that reference; there is also Herne the Hunter, one aspect of the Horned God/Lord which Martin mixes into Wildling lore.  Make of that what you will.

Oooh, now there's an invitation :D

You are right about the Horned God being related to Herne the Hunter - who was in turn a later interpolation of the old Celtic god Cernunnos, literally the Horned One, also referred to as Lord of the Beasts and the counterpart to the Green Man (who is very much reflected in the Garth mythos). These both appear in Arthurian myth as the Green Knight and the Black Knight, which are associated with summer and winter respectively (in Celtic cosmology the year was divided into just the two seasons), so there is that polarity again which ties in deeply to this whole story....

 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

However, the High Sparrow refers to the Faith as an ancient order and I don't think 300 years since it's last appearance counts as ancient in my books.   There is still the iconography of the shining sword in the darkness.  Cersei adds information concerning tales about the Faith which include some surprises.  There may have been dragonslayers in their company the last time they were formed; but sorcerers and demon hunters?  Doesn't that seem a bit of anomaly to you given the makeup of the current bunch?

I think the coming of the Andals would be 'ancient' though, so I don't think we have enough evidence to extrapolate beyond that to pre-Andal Westeros. It's frustrating that the canon doen't give any clues to the founding of the two orders of the Faith Militant. They might even have been in existence in Andalos since the days of Hugor. Perhaps when the seven walked the earth in bodily form, the Warrior himself may have formed the Orders to facilitate the invasion of Westeros to claim those lands promised by the Father?

I think the earliest (in terms of Westerosi timeline) reference to the FM is in the time of King Humfrey (Teague) and Arlan III Durrandon:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Riverlands

Humfrey of House Teague was King of the Rivers and the Hills in those days. A pious ruler, he founded many septs and motherhouses across the riverlands and attempted to repress the worship of the old gods within his realm.

This led Raventree to rise against him, for the Blackwoods had never accepted the Seven. The Vances of Atranta and the Tullys of Riverrun joined them in rebellion. King Humfrey and his loyalists, supported by the Swords and Stars of the Faith Militant, were on the point of crushing them when Lord Roderick Blackwood sent to Storm's End for aid. His lordship was tied to House Durrandon by marriage, as King Arlan had taken one of Lord Roderick's daughters to wife, wedding her by the old rites beneath the great dead weirwood in Raventree's godswood.

Now, I can't fix a precise date on this, but it was 'centuries' after the Andals had deposed the last First Men king of the rivers, Tristifer Mudd, and the Riverlands then had Durrandon (300+ years) and then Hoare (3 generations, maybe another 100+ years) overlords before the Conquest. So let's round up the uncertainties and say it was around 500BC when the earliest known record of the Faith Militant occurs. That still doesn't give us enough to fix its foundation, though :(

 

It does seem anomalous that the Orders numbered sorcerors and demon hunters in their ranks, but this is Cersei's recollection of the tales told by the smallfolk - and we have seen enough other tales of the smallfolk to know they can get a bit carried away with a little bit of gossip. Though actually, come to think of it, demon hunters wouldn't be too anomalous, given the parallel of Witch Finders in the Cathiolic Inquisition and also during Puritan times. The High Septon pretty much called Maegor a demon to his face, after all...

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16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oooh, now there's an invitation :D

You are right about the Horned God being related to Herne the Hunter - who was in turn a later interpolation of the old Celtic god Cernunnos, literally the Horned One, also referred to as Lord of the Beasts and the counterpart to the Green Man (who is very much reflected in the Garth mythos). These both appear in Arthurian myth as the Green Knight and the Black Knight, which are associated with summer and winter respectively (in Celtic cosmology the year was divided into just the two seasons), so there is that polarity again which ties in deeply to this whole story....

There is quite a lot of horned god imagery associated with the office of King Beyond the Wall.  I suspect that Old Nan's stories about the Night's King will intersect in some way with the horned lord.  Mance's HQ for example:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

I'm not even sure who qualifies as the King Beyond the Wall at this point.  Mance may have begun to join the clans together; but in the end, it's Jon to whom they swear allegiance. 

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I think the coming of the Andals would be 'ancient' though, so I don't think we have enough evidence to extrapolate beyond that to pre-Andal Westeros. It's frustrating that the canon doen't give any clues to the founding of the two orders of the Faith Militant. They might even have been in existence in Andalos since the days of Hugor. Perhaps when the seven walked the earth in bodily form, the Warrior himself may have formed the Orders to facilitate the invasion of Westeros to claim those lands promised by the Father?

What I am curious about is GRRM's use of Thuban as the pole star. Thuban hasn't been the pole star for 5000 years or so.  Did something happen in the timeline of ASOIAF 5000 years ago with the Andals?

The Seven walking the earth in bodily form is a fascinating idea.  Myths are made from real events although they are turned into something fantastical over time.  This dovetails with the notion that Elder Brother has found six rubies and is waiting for the seventh to show up at the Quiet Isle.  Someone has suggested that these correspond to people rather than Rhaegar's rubies.  Who would qualify for those offices in the current story.  The High Sparrow is characterized as the Father and it wouldn't surprise me if he spent time at the QI.  Brienne the Maid and what about Sandor?  The Elder Brother himself? Any ideas on that score?

'A fallen star' would certainly suggest that the Warrior was the star who fell in battle.  Arthur Dayne could be considered a fallen star which breaks the sword since the sword and the man are one. 

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It does seem anomalous that the Orders numbered sorcerors and demon hunters in their ranks, but this is Cersei's recollection of the tales told by the smallfolk - and we have seen enough other tales of the smallfolk to know they can get a bit carried away with a little bit of gossip. Though actually, come to think of it, demon hunters wouldn't be too anomalous, given the parallel of Witch Finders in the Cathiolic Inquisition and also during Puritan times. The High Septon pretty much called Maegor a demon to his face, after all..

I don't think we can dismiss Cersei as an unreliable narrator on the old stories she has heard.  Whatever information we are given falls into the category of Old Nan's tales.  It's just a matter of understanding what they mean to the current story.

For example:  When Bran says that the 3EC lied to him; Nan pipes up and says that all crows are liars.  Later we learn from Mormont; what she actually meant:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell."

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

So how are the tales of ancient order including sorcerers, demon hunts and dragonslayers manifesting in the current story?   

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think we can dismiss Cersei as an unreliable narrator on the old stories she has heard.  Whatever information we are given falls into the category of Old Nan's tales.  It's just a matter of understanding what they mean to the current story.

I'm not just dismissing her as an unreliable narrator, we have her own testimony that she doesn't really understand much about the history of the Faith Militant:
 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"As you say. Yet it must be asked—where were the king's knights when these things were being done? Did not Jaehaerys the Conciliator once swear upon the Iron Throne itself that the crown would always protect and defend the Faith?"

Cersei had no idea what Jaehaerys the Conciliator might have sworn. "He did," she agreed, "and the High Septon blessed him and anointed him as king. It is traditional for every new High Septon to give the king his blessing . . . and yet you have refused to bless King Tommen."

...

I will pretend you did not mention lions. "The realm is at war. His Grace has need of every man." Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen's strength playing wet nurse to sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas. Half of them are probably praying for a good raping. "Your sparrows have clubs and axes. Let them defend themselves."

"King Maegor's laws prohibit that, as Your Grace must know. It was by his decree that the Faith laid down its swords."

"Tommen is king now, not Maegor." What did she care what Maegor the Cruel had decreed three hundred years ago? Instead of taking the swords out of the hands of the faithful, he should have used them for his own ends. She pointed to where the Warrior stood above his altar of red marble. "What is that he holds?"

 

'What Jaehaerys swore' was the single most important fact concerning the Faith Militant in recent generations: their disbanding and the reconciliation of Faith and Crown after Maegor had failed in his attempts. In fact I would say she knows less about it than the average reader :D

Oh, and i have found where the HS uses the word 'ancient' in relation to the FM:

Quote

He did not disappoint her. "The Faith Militant reborn . . . that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. The Warrior would lift his shining sword again and cleanse this sinful realm of all its evil. If His Grace were to allow me to restore the ancient blessed orders of the Sword and Star, every godly man in the Seven Kingdoms would know him to be our true and rightful lord."

He's exaggerating a bit, as it was only 250 years - you'd expect him to get that right given he knew the Crown's debt was 900,647 Dragons off the top of his head rather than Cersei's estimate of 900,000...

 

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Seven walking the earth in bodily form is a fascinating idea.  Myths are made from real events although they are turned into something fantastical over time.  This dovetails with the notion that Elder Brother has found six rubies and is waiting for the seventh to show up at the Quiet Isle.  Someone has suggested that these correspond to people rather than Rhaegar's rubies.  Who would qualify for those offices in the current story.  The High Sparrow is characterized as the Father and it wouldn't surprise me if he spent time at the QI.  Brienne the Maid and what about Sandor?  The Elder Brother himself? Any ideas on that score?

'A fallen star' would certainly suggest that the Warrior was the star who fell in battle.  Arthur Dayne could be considered a fallen star which breaks the sword since the sword and the man are one. 

Sandor the Stranger - his horse had to be castrated and renamed at QI. I often wonder if the HS was the same wandering Septon that guided Brienne to the QI, but haven't done the research to check it out for possible timeline clashes. I'm sure he was barefooted with gnarled feet as well, and there are some similarities in the backstory.

Gendry the Smith perhaps? But Crone and Mother I have no clues. Oh, well, more stuff for my re-read agenda ;)

 

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