Randyl Tarley never planned on killing Sam

[John Suburbs]

15 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's easier to show and say what you think of people below than those who are beyond you in society's chain of command.

Of course, Randyll can't very well remove Mace like he did Sam, but if some other fighting force were to suddenly land in Westeros looking for "friends in the Reach" who would be willing to overthrow the Lannisters, and by extension their Tyrell allies, mayhaps House Tarly would make a valuable asset?

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure you can use any of these lords as shining examples of what a lord should be in the eyes of most Westerosi. Rodrik is derisively called the Reader because the ironborn value reading about as much as they value planting. But Rod is also a good seaman and leader or me, with enough smarts to choose his battles. Manderly is widely derided as next-to-useless, which he cleverly uses to his advantage, and he has the courage to stand up to his foes, even when he himself is unarmed and unarmored. We haven't met Wyllas yet, but he seems to be genuinely respected, at least by his own family. But remember, Wyllas was crippled in a jousting accident as a young man, which means that as a boy he was skilled at arms. Yes, Bran has Cassel and others by his side, but most people who see him for the first time react very badly, which Bran learns to ignore.

And none of these lords evince the sheer cowardice that Sam shows when he first begins his training. As a lord, you have to be willing to use the power at your disposal in order to achieve your goals, whether that is your own skill or those of your followers, and Sam seems utterly incapable of doing this. More than anything, this is probably what sticks in Randyll's craw -- that Sam would rather curl up in a ball and beg for mercy than stand and fight. This may be a misjudgment on Randyll's part, but from what I've read of Sam's childhood, he never gave his father any reason to think otherwise.

 

Sam was not the type of son Randyll wanted, so he tortured Sam to make him "grow a pair" , and it's Sam's fault that he didn't.

So, you're basically victim blaming Sam for not standing up to his despicable father.

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And none of these lords evince the sheer cowardice that Sam shows when he first begins his training. As a lord, you have to be willing to use the power at your disposal in order to achieve your goals, whether that is your own skill or those of your followers, and Sam seems utterly incapable of doing this.

I've always assumed (obviously that's just 'headcannon') that Sam was like that because of the way he was brutalized by his father. He comments that when he was young he didn't like/wasn't good at fighting and Randyll was disappointed, he doesn't tel us he used to curl up like a ball. 

Sam is having a conversation with Jon, an insense one and he holds his ground until he is reminded of his father and begins to stutter. 

Randyll doesn't say being a maester isn't good enough for his first son and heir, he says NO MAN OF HOUSE TARLY. He despises petty lords. He despises maesters because they serve, while most noble houses seem to think an honor to send a younger son to the Citadel. Randyll Tarly certainly does not seem just a regular westerosi lord with the typical prejudices and biases. To me he reads like a much more proud, inflexible and cruel man than most. 

[Orphalesion]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You think he'd honestly think the gods would care about such a qualifier? I mean isn't any man who'd do it basically working as an extension of Tarley?

When Elizabeth I signed the death warrant for Mary Stuart we know that she felt that it was an unforgivable sin and crime to do so, since Mary was both her relative/kin and a sovereign put into that position by God's divine plan. So she'd both kill a relative and act against God's divine plan.

It's written that she tried to very clumsily lie to herself about it by pretending she had not known that the very document she had just signed was Mary's death sentence and put the blame on her ministers for not telling her that this specific document among the many she signed that day was Mary's death warrant.

People in the real world who have lived in very religious times have always found a way to absolve themselves of their sins. European kings murdered their relatives left and right and openly had courtesans (and bought absolution from the Pope fro such actions)

Randyll could have had a servant or retainer "accidently" shoot Sam or trip his horse and then put the blame on said servant/retainer. "It weren't my hands who took Sam's life! He was murdered by this guy over there!"

 

[Lady Dacey]

@John Suburbs, now, to show why I believe the "sheer cowardice" Sam shows when we first see him through Jon's eyes is actually a result of trauma, here is some more Randyll sensible parenting:

Quote

ASOS - Sam I

He was such a coward. Lord Randyll, his father, had always said so, and he had been right. Sam was his heir, but he had never been worthy, so his father had sent him away to the Wall. His little brother Dickon would inherit the Tarly lands and castle, and the greatsword Heartsbane that the lords of Horn Hill had borne so proudly for centuries. He wondered whether Dickon would shed a tear for his brother who died in the snow, somewhere off beyond the edge of the world. Why should he? A coward's not worth weeping over. He had heard his father tell his mother as much, half a hundred times. The Old Bear knew it too.

 We know Mormont actually values Samwell, even if it's not as a warrior. Sam can't see it though. We get in this paragraph just how much of Sam self-professed cowardy is actually deeply tied to his father's words and judgment. 

Quote

ASOS, Sam III

he had shared a huge bed at Horn Hill with two of his sisters. That had ended when Lord Randyll decided it was making him soft as a girl. Sleeping alone in my own cold cell never made me any harder or braver, though. He wondered what his father would say if he could see him now. I killed one of the Others, my lord, he imagined saying. I stabbed him with an obsidian dagger, and my Sworn Brothers call me Sam the Slayer now. But even in his fancies, Lord Randyll only scowled, disbelieving.

Here we have a clue that even when Sam did something his father would have approved of, he didn't get recognition for it. That's a very commom feeling in chidren, and very toxic. 

Quote

AFFC, Sam II

Looking at the water only made him think of drowning. When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill. The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. After that he never dared go in any deeper than his waist.

What a way to teach a boy to swim!!! See, after that he never dared go in deeper than his waist. That's trauma, and it's pretty much Randyll's fault for being an unskilled parent. Do you think Ned tought Robb how to swim by throwing him in a lake? We know for sure that Jon and Arya can swim... 

[Winter's Cold]

Westerosi is too brutal of a place to have a Lord as weak willed as Samwell. And he is especially unsuitable for House Tarly, the house that commands the military power in the Reach. The Tarly's House Words are First in Battle and their sigil is a Huntsman. They are one of the Marcher Lords who guard the Reach from invasions by Dorne. They have a Valyrian steel greatsword called Heartsbane that the Lord of the House is expected to wield in battle. Essentially House Tarly is the most martial house in the Reach. Their lord needs to be stronger willed than average, skilled in battle and adept at command. Samwell is also the eldest son of House Tarly. I don't think there's any precedent for firstborn sons to become Maesters. Randyll did the best he could to toughen Samwell up so that he could fulfill his role but he failed as being a stern, skilled warrior Lord was not in Sam's nature.

[Lady Dacey]

6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Randyll did the best he could to toughen Samwell up so that he could fulfill his role but he failed as being a stern, skilled warrior

The best he could, really? That's what you got from Sam's recollections of his childhood, as well as the on page interactions of Lord Tarly with Brienne and the Lannisters' opinion about him? 

All you say about house Tarly is true, but it does not mean Randyll did well while trying to get his son to "thoughen up". 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

The best he could, really? That's what you got from Sam's recollections of his childhood, as well as the on page interactions of Lord Tarly with Brienne and the Lannisters' opinion about him? 

All you say about house Tarly is true, but it does not mean Randyll did well while trying to get his son to "thoughen up". 

Exactly. Also, there are alternatives before you decide to murder your own son. 

[Lady Dacey]

22 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

I don't think there's any precedent for firstborn sons to become Maesters.

I don't see your point. Well what's the difference between the Wall and the Citadel or any other celibate order? It's only in Randyll's mind (maesters serve, unlike black brothers).

there is precedent for a first born joining the king's guard. We don't know much about the past of the Wall or the citadel. 

[John Suburbs]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sam was not the type of son Randyll wanted, so he tortured Sam to make him "grow a pair" , and it's Sam's fault that he didn't.

So, you're basically victim blaming Sam for not standing up to his despicable father.

No, I'm not blaming anyone. Randyll did what he did because that is all he knows. Most likely, Randyll took a fair number of beatings from his own father because that is the way it was done. So who is the original victim here?

46 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I've always assumed (obviously that's just 'headcannon') that Sam was like that because of the way he was brutalized by his father. He comments that when he was young he didn't like/wasn't good at fighting and Randyll was disappointed, he doesn't tel us he used to curl up like a ball. 

Sam is having a conversation with Jon, an insense one and he holds his ground until he is reminded of his father and begins to stutter. 

Randyll doesn't say being a maester isn't good enough for his first son and heir, he says NO MAN OF HOUSE TARLY. He despises petty lords. He despises maesters because they serve, while most noble houses seem to think an honor to send a younger son to the Citadel. Randyll Tarly certainly does not seem just a regular westerosi lord with the typical prejudices and biases. To me he reads like a much more proud, inflexible and cruel man than most. 

No question. Randyll's parenting had the exact opposite affect than what was intended, and a smart man would have realized that doing the same thing over and over again and not getting the desired results is a waste of time and effort. But as I said, this is all Lord Randyll knows: if Sam does not respond to this steadily increasing humiliation and brutality, then he is simply not cut out to be Lord of Horn Hill -- which leads to the eventual ultimatum. No, it isn't right; it isn't fair, but Randyll has the future of his house to think of, and a lord needs to be at least a reasonably competent fighting man himself if he is to lead other competent fighting man. And as @Winter's Coldnoted, Horn Hill lies between Highgarden and the Prince's Pass, which means it is one of the principal houses charged with repelling a Dornish invasion, so the house that oversees the castle must remain strong, which requires a strong leader. Whatever brutality Randyll visited upon Sam growing up, it's a walk in the park compared to what would happen to him, and the entire Tarly family, if Horn Hill were to fall to the Dornish.

Here is the first time we see Sam in a confrontation:

Quote

Jon IV, GoT

The fight lasted less than a minute before the fat boy was on the ground, his whole body shaking as blood leaked through his shattered helm and between his pudgy fingers. "I yield," he shrilled. "No more, I yield, don't hit me."

Forgetting about what Randyll thinks of maesters, this is utterly unacceptable for someone who is someday expected to be a leader of men. Nobody is going to follow a person who cannot defend himself, let alone his house. The first thing that would happen if Sam were to become lord is his own bannermen would bully him into giving them lands, money and status, thus weakening House Tarly, just as Tytos did with his bannermen, then rival houses like the Carons and Beesburys will try to lure Sam's bannermen away from a weakened House Tarly into their own fold, which many will do because no one in their right mind would put faith in a weak leader vs a strong one, and the cycle would continue until Highgarden realizes it can no longer rely on the Tarlys to defend their southern border and Horn Hill is handed to another family.

One last point: I don't think we can casually assume that Randyll made Sam into what he was. I think it's safe to say that he raised both of his sons in much the same way, and from what we know of Dickon he seems to have responded to it reasonably well.

So what Randyll did was wrong and short-sighted, but in his mind it was necessary because the defense of his house and his lands was at stake.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

@John Suburbs, now, to show why I believe the "sheer cowardice" Sam shows when we first see him through Jon's eyes is actually a result of trauma, here is some more Randyll sensible parenting:

 We know Mormont actually values Samwell, even if it's not as a warrior. Sam can't see it though. We get in this paragraph just how much of Sam self-professed cowardy is actually deeply tied to his father's words and judgment. 

Here we have a clue that even when Sam did something his father would have approved of, he didn't get recognition for it. That's a very commom feeling in chidren, and very toxic. 

What a way to teach a boy to swim!!! See, after that he never dared go in deeper than his waist. That's trauma, and it's pretty much Randyll's fault for being an unskilled parent. Do you think Ned tought Robb how to swim by throwing him in a lake? We know for sure that Jon and Arya can swim... 

Agreed. I'm not saying Randyll did the right thing by Sam, or by his house, but that he had no other frame of reference with which to raise the next lord of Horn Hill. There are no parenting experts in Westeros, no child psychologists, no family counselors... Randyll attempted to raise Sam the way he was raised -- to be a hard, lean, fighting man; a leader. When that didn't work, it isn't any more reasonable to expect Randyll to suddenly become enlightened and change his ways then for Sam to realize that, maybe, he could at least try to become stronger, lay off the rich foods, become just a little bit harder. Neither Sam nor Randyll budged an inch to accommodate the other because they were both too darned stubborn.

 

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

7 hells and 7 heavens for the 7

Of course you're right! I'd forgotten that - why have "heavens" and "hells" otherwise? Thanks!

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sam was not the type of son Randyll wanted, so he tortured Sam to make him "grow a pair" , and it's Sam's fault that he didn't.

So, you're basically victim blaming Sam for not standing up to his despicable father.

Oh come on, by our definition every squire would be classed as being tortured. When Ned Stark demands that his 8 year son come watch him execute a man he'd be locked away for child cruelty. 

Randyll was not deliberately torturing Sam for shits and giggles, he was doing so for what he believed was in Sam's best interests. He went through 10 Master of Arms and all seem to have counselled the same thing. Unfortunately what had worked on others was not working on Sam. 

 

6 hours ago, zandru said:

 

You're not the only one to have said this. It wasn't the Other that made Sam brave; it was Gilly. He put himself in mortal danger to try to protect Gilly and her baby.

Maybe your right, maybe the love of a good woman did eventually help, but it is important to note that initially it was Gilly and the other wives who saved him when he once again wanted to give up, role over and die. 

“It’s too far,” said Sam. “I’ll never reach the Wall, my lord.” He was so very tired. All he wanted was to sleep, to sleep and sleep and never wake, and he knew that if he just stayed here soon enough Dirk or Ollo Lophand or Clubfoot Karl would get angry with him and grant his wish, just to see him die. “I’d sooner stay with you. See, I’m not frightened anymore. Of you, or . . . of anything.”

    “You should be,” said a woman’s voice.

    Three of Craster’s wives were standing over them. Two were haggard old women he did not know, but Gilly was between them, all bundled up in skins and cradling a bundle of brown and white fur that must have held her baby. “We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives,” Sam told them. “We have orders.”

    “That’s done now,” said the old woman on the right.

    “The blackest crows are down in the cellar, gorging,” said the old woman on the left, “or up in the loft with the young ones. They’ll be back soon, though. Best you be gone when they do. The horses run off, but Dyah’s caught two.”

    “You said you’d help me,” Gilly reminded him.

    “I said Jon would help you. Jon’s brave, and he’s a good fighter, but I think he’s dead now. I’m a craven. And fat. Look how fat I am. Besides, Lord Mormont’s hurt. Can’t you see? I couldn’t leave the Lord Commander.”

 

The true change we see in Sam is after his experience with the Other, he leads Gilly back, he is more proactive and actually determines Jon's fate as Lord Commander and we see this culmination in change when he lashes out at Dareon. 

But you are right, love/lust of Gilly as well as the Other may have helped him, but he was also loved by his mother and sisters at Horn Hill so this is a very different kind of love that inspired him, not something that Tarly snr could have predicted. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Oh come on, by our definition every squire would be classed as being tortured. When Ned Stark demands that his 8 year son come watch him execute a man he'd be locked away for child cruelty. 

How is this relevant in any way?

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Randyll was not deliberately torturing Sam for shits and giggles, he was doing so for what he believed was in Sam's best interests. He went through 10 Master of Arms and all seem to have counselled the same thing. Unfortunately what had worked on others was not working on Sam. 

No, he was doing what was best for his own interests, not Sam's.

And how does your comment in any way negate that Sam was a victim, and is having the blame put on him?

Here's a hint...it doesn't.

 

[mushroomshirt]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. Also, there are alternatives before you decide to murder your own son. 

Yes, like sending him to the wall

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

s doing what was best for his own interests, not

Tarley's job was to make Sam into a man. A strong man. Was his ego effected? Sure. But I'd it'd be unfair to say his motives were entirely that. Doubtless he thought he was "helping" Sam the best way he could.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

15 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

but wanted him to pass his training because he knew Sam had other attributes and talents that could be invaluable to the Watch.

Like being able to read and having a noble's education. Skills that most young recruits at the Wall do not bring with them.

Randyl could have gotten rid of Sam by letting him become a Maester. As a Maester Sam would have to set aside the Tarly name, something you'd think Randyl would be happy about. On the Wall Sam will still have the Tarly name as long as he's alive. I'm guessing Randyl did not think he'd last long enough at the Wall where he could sully the Tarly name for very long.

[Trigger Warning]

4 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Like being able to read and having a noble's education. Skills that most young recruits at the Wall do not bring with them.

Randyl could have gotten rid of Sam by letting him become a Maester. As a Maester Sam would have to set aside the Tarly name, something you'd think Randyl would be happy about. On the Wall Sam will still have the Tarly name as long as he's alive. I'm guessing Randyl did not think he'd last long enough at the Wall where he could sully the Tarly name for very long.

He probably thought Sam would never complete his chain and then he'd be a threat to Dickon should some other noble use his claim. At the Wall he's at the other end of the continent and will have his vows sworn in no time. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tarley's job was to make Sam into a man. A strong man. Was his ego effected? Sure. But I'd it'd be unfair to say his motives were entirely that. Doubtless he thought he was "helping" Sam the best way he could.

Eh, I don't buy it. He despised Sam, and wanted to turn him into what he desired in a son because it was an embarrassment to himself that a Tarly born of his blood could be as weak and cowardice as he perceived Sam to be. He was only concerned with his own reputation.

If he had any concern for the well being of Sam, he would have been fine with him becoming a Maester, an alternative that would have solved his problem of having an heir that he deemed unfit to rule his house, as well as something that would benefit Sam.

The problem for him with that though, is that he would still be the father of a son that was not a fierce warrior with great martial prowess, who now served others. It was all about his own ego.

[Blackwater Revenant]

8 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

He probably thought Sam would never complete his chain and then he'd be a threat to Dickon should some other noble use his claim. At the Wall he's at the other end of the continent and will have his vows sworn in no time. 

So Randyll is worried and afraid of this cowardice, pushover, poor excuse of a man having the will and fortitude to stand up for himself, and threaten Dickon's claim?

Sounds a little contradictory to me.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

How is this relevant in any way?

You really don't understand how its relevent or do you just like asking me questions? 

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No, he was doing what was best for his own interests, not Sam's.

He was doing what was in the Houses best interests. 

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And how does your comment in any way negate that Sam was a victim, and is having the blame put on him?

How is he having the blame put on him? Please quote were I blamed Sam for this?