Randyl Tarley never planned on killing Sam

[Lady Dacey]

@John Suburbs it's really just a pic that was on low my iphone gallery the day I signed up on this site. I think someone messaged it to me through WhatsApp and I really liked it. Think of it as a feminist statement. It's a female reproductive system saying 'fuck you' after all... 

about Randyll, well it's easier to discuss with you than with Bernie Mac or Varysblackfyre who seem to think he was a great guy and was really doing the only thing he could've done for his house. I don't think Randyll is 'evil' or 'sadistic'. I think he's narrow minded, proud and mean. He might not enjoy inflicting pain, but he has no problem with it either. And not having a problem with inflicting serious pain on your own child makes terrible perenting to me.  

Also, Bernie is arguing basically that Sam "had it coming" because he never stepped up. I disagree. I believe there is textual evidence that Randyll's treatment actually increased, if not actually cause the craven behavior we see Sam displaying in his earlier appearances in the story. As I've said, if he had been encouraged to excel where he had the skill for he probably would be overall more confidant and have a very different outlook on difficult situations. When faced with a problem the first thing that comes to his mind is "it's not worth it to try and fight, I'm not good enough, my father said so". 

Now, of course westerosi didn't have a lot psychological insight on child development, but there are several different approaches to raising kids between lords we've heard of. The Evenstar comes to mind: Brienne has only fond memories of him. He tried to arrange a marriage for her not once, but three times, each faring worse than the last, and he came to accept that his daughter probably wouldn't marry and gave her his blessing to go serve Renly. He allowed her to be trained at arms before he ever gave up on her marrying actually. And she feels really guilty for not being a proper daughter and him not having a proper heir, but there's no evidence he holds any grudge against her. Also, of course, we've seen Ned Stark, who teaches by exemple and fundamentally respects the nature of each of his children. 

I do believe Randyll thought he was only doing what was necessary. I believe he had the best intentions for the future of his house. This is precisely my problem with him: that in his mind chaining his son to a wall for three days is reasonable. He is a complex and nuanced character, indeed. Not a crazy antagonist, but someone who could surely exist in real life - and in real life, he'd be a person I despise. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

ernie Mac or Varysblackfyre who seem to think he was a great guy and was really doing the only thing he could've done for his hou

Ok no,I think Tarley can be a real stuck up prick. 

I was fumming when he basically chastizes Briene for joining Renly's rebellion because it's causing  soldiers being tempted to do such a horrid thing as rape and says if she gets raped yeah, she's to blame

My point was never Tarley was a particularly good guy-it was that his threat towards Sam was a bluff not because he secretly loves his boy but because he wouldn't risk his immortal soul over it. And my only real "defense" of Tarley for his parenting style  of Sam is that it was really the only way he knows how to parent-he simply can't comprehend any other way other than being a stringent hard-ass to make a son a man and lambast him strongly for any weakness shown.

And yes, there are some lords who are very understanding and kind to their son/daughter whose not following the path or playing the role society has set for them. 

Briene's father is perfect example and I dare say though expecting Arya to grow out of it Ned has been accomadating to Arya's peculiar nature.

But, most lords react more similar to Tarley if they're offspring "rebelled" in such a way was what I said.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

He was alienated from his mother and sisters by his father when he came up with the brilliant conclusion it was their fault he was "becoming soft".

No, we are never told that. His father eventually ignored him, but there is zero evidence that he was alienated from anyone else. 

From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of her world had been female. Men frighten her, but women don't, Sam realized. He could understand that. Back at Horn Hill he had preferred the company of girls as well. His sisters had been kind to him, and though the other girls would sometimes taunt him, cruel words were easier to shrug off than the blows and buffets he got from the other castle boys.

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

And it's not only love and lust for a woman, but friendship from his brothers that move him

And yet it did not move him to try before he encountered the Other. Why did Jon think Sam was a lost cause? Why did he think that Sam be only one exempt from passing basic training? We later see after his encounter with an Other that he is capable, that he can beat the shit out of someone who displeases him. 

 

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 he actually hears Jon's voice saying "you can do it" just before slaying the Other, as I've shown above with quotes.

Where was this voice when he tried to lay down and die on the March from Fist of the First Men? Instead Grenn and Small Paul had to carry him and order him to move as his first instinct was to give in and die. It is the same at Craster's Keep. 

It seems that up until his encounter with an Other he simply ignored the voices inside of him that told him he could do it. 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but I think people who view Randyll's actions as motivated purely by an innate evilness or desire to make others suffer is missing the nuance of what is actually a fairly complex character.

 

This is true. GRRM could have made Sam the youngest son instead which would take away most of the justifications on Randyll's arguments. GRRM has actually made Randyll quite the grey character, he could have had any Reach lord be the one to stop the game that would have possibly lead to Brienne's rape but he has it be Tarly, he also shows Tarly being one of the first lords to actively start repairing the Riverlands. Up until that point we had seen no Lion or Wolf do that. 

Randyll was clearly out of his depth in regards to Sam, their entire society was. A more enlightened culture would have got the best out of him, seen Sam blossom but the culture he was born into was just not capable of giving him the education he needed. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@John Suburbs

Also, Bernie is arguing basically that Sam "had it coming"  

Please quote things that I have actually said as I am more than happy to clarify or further explain what I have said but please don't try to make up bullshit arguments that you imagine I have made. 

Of course Sam did not have it coming. 

Quote

about Randyll, well it's easier to discuss with you than with Bernie Mac or Varysblackfyre who seem to think he was a great guy and was really doing the only thing he could've done for his house.

Where have I called Randyll great? Like the majority of characters he is grey. 

But yeah, I do think he made the right call in regards to his House. Sam, like Tytos Lannister, would have been a disaster for his House. 

[John Suburbs]

Lol, well it sounds to me like we're all pretty much in agreement here. Sam had a shit childhood at the hands of his father, but his father was acting in the best interests of his house. Both are the products of their culture and environment, so neither had it in them to resolve the situation -- which led to the ultimatum.

The only thing I would add is that for those who think Randyll could have been more understanding and pursued a more enlightened approach like Ned, note that this approach did not work out very well for House Stark: Robb chose his own honor over the needs of his house; Sansa believed life was a song right up until her father's head came off; Arya failed to understand that not behaving like a proper Lady of Winterfell gets people killed; even Bran sought out the 3EC so he could walk again. All the Stark children -- even Rickon, although he gets a pass because he is still young -- pursued their own interests first with little or no thought to the future of House Stark. The same can be said for the Lannisters, which is why Tywin is so frustrated with each of them, particularly once he gets a look at how someone like Margaery Tyrell is willing to put her own interests behind those of her house by marrying a loathsome toad like Joffrey.

It's also a theme that GRRM has woven into history, with Egg and the consequences of allowing his children to marry whom they wished.

So nobody is saying Randyll is a great guy who should be admired, but I also don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on him. If we can accept the idea that Sam could not become the son his father wanted because he just is the way he is, it's only fair to acknowledge that Randyll could not become the father that Sam wanted because he, too, is just the way he is.

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 30.12.2017 at 6:19 PM, John Suburbs said:

Also, sending Sam to either the Citadel or the Faith is not an option for the eldest son of Horn Hill because both of them lead to servitude, as in servitude in some other lord's seat, and neither of them offers a rock-solid guarantee the Sam could not someday become Lord of Horn Hill. Only death or the Night's Watch can do that.

I do not see the difference between Night's Watch and Citadel.You swear an oath and remove your family's name, and with it you renounce your claim on your family's lands and title.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I do not see the difference between Night's Watch and Citadel.You swear an oath and remove your family's name, and with it you renounce your claim on your family's lands and title.

Exactly, agree completely.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, well it sounds to me like we're all pretty much in agreement here.

Lol, we're not. Just so we're clear...

[Blackwater Revenant]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly, agree completely.

 

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Lol, we're not. Just so we're clear...

I'll second both of these comments.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, well it sounds to me like we're all pretty much in agreement here. Sam had a shit childhood at the hands of his father, but his father was acting in the best interests of his house. Both are the products of their culture and environment, so neither had it in them to resolve the situation -- which led to the ultimatum.

The only thing I would add is that for those who think Randyll could have been more understanding and pursued a more enlightened approach like Ned, note that this approach did not work out very well for House Stark: Robb chose his own honor over the needs of his house;

He acted the loyal noble son, and to follow the ideal Ned put forth of having to uphold honor even when it's hard. 

Sansa believed life was a song right up until her father's head came off; She believed it because that's what little ladies are taught. And Sansa always acted like a perfect lady. And she was 11. Her being naive is completely normal especially given her privellaged upbringing. Arya failed to understand that not behaving like a proper Lady of Winterfell gets people killed; Not behaving like a proper lady often times is the reason she's now alive

even Bran sought out the 3EC so he could walk again. He's 8 and he wants to walk again. You can't really chastize him for that man. All the Stark children -- even Rickon, although he gets a pass because he is still young -- pursued their own interests first with little or no thought to the future of House Stark.  Robb tried his best, the others were trying to mostly survive and couldn't have done anything really. And they're all children. Even Robb is a child Crown be damned a 15 year old boy is a child.

The same can be said for the Lannisters, which is why Tywin is so frustrated with each of them, particularly once he gets a look at how someone like Margaery Tyrell is willing to put her own interests behind those of her house by marrying a loathsome toad like Joffrey.

It's also a theme that GRRM has woven into history, with Egg and the consequences of allowing his children to marry whom they wished.

 

So nobody is saying Randyll is a great guy who should be admired, but I also don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on him. If we can accept the idea that Sam could not become the son his father wanted because he just is the way he is, it's only fair to acknowledge that Randyll could not become the father that Sam wanted because he, too, is just the way he is.

Right this isn't to justify Tarley but to show due to what his society and house has taught him in how to make a boy into a man, you just keep beating the weakness out of him

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He acted the loyal noble son, and to follow the ideal Ned put forth of having to uphold honor even when it's hard. 

 

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She believed it because that's what little ladies are taught. And Sansa always acted like a perfect lady. And she was 11. Her being naive is completely normal especially given her privellaged upbringing.

 

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not behaving like a proper lady often times is the reason she's now alive

 

28 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

. He's 8 and he wants to walk again. You can't really chastize him for that man. 

 

28 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robb tried his best, the others were trying to mostly survive and couldn't have done anything really. And they're all children. Even Robb is a child Crown be damned a 15 year old boy is a child.

I must admit, your responses here caught me off guard. I'm glad to see we can find common ground on some issues.

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

 

 

 

I must admit, your responses here caught me off guard. I'm glad to see we can find common ground on some issues.

Yeah I don't hate the Starks-I just pick out the more unsavory bits about them as well as the scrumptious bits. By in large I just don't like certian t flaws that they have(a lot of which is due to their society's expectations), are ignored.

[HoodedCrow]

It will be ironic when Sam survives and saves the realm in many ways,  interpersonal, political and intellectual.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I do not see the difference between Night's Watch and Citadel.You swear an oath and remove your family's name, and with it you renounce your claim on your family's lands and title.

 

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly, agree completely.

 

21 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

I'll second both of these comments.

If you leave the Night's Watch, you are hunted down and executed as a traitor -- barring some extraordinary circumstance like a pardon from the king. If you leave either the Order of Maesters or the Faith, you give up your chain or your robes but there is nothing expressly forbidding you from resuming your old life, although you may face a certain amount of scorn from society.

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Didn't he plan to make it look like an accident?

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He acted the loyal noble son, and to follow the ideal Ned put forth of having to uphold honor even when it's hard. 

Yes he did, and it got him killed, basically sealing the destruction of his house. This is the point: raising Robb to value his honor above the safety and prosperity of House Stark resulted in him placing his needs over those of his house. Once he bagged Jeyne, Robb was going to dishonor himself by either leaving Jeyne or breaking his vow to House Frey. If he had received even an ounce of real-politik training, he would have known that doing right by his house was the overriding consideration. But he wasn't raised to think in those terms, so he made the tragically wrong decision.

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She believed it because that's what little ladies are taught. And Sansa always acted like a perfect lady. And she was 11. Her being naive is completely normal especially given her privellaged upbringing.

Not all highborn ladies are raised this way. Certainly not Margaery, nor Arianne Martell, nor even, it seems, Lyanna Mormont, who is only 11. Most highborn ladies are raised knowing full well that their future husbands will be determined based on the needs of their house, not some romantic fantasy. Sansa is near to flowering; it was past time she stopped being coddled.

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not behaving like a proper lady often times is the reason she's now alive

Yes, it proved highly beneficial in the extremely unusual circumstance she found herself in. Before that, though, her contact with Mycah is what led to his death, and Lady's. Her willfulness also resulted in Syrio's death. Is she solely to blame for these things? No, but her insistence on doing whatever she wants and damn the consequences leads to real-world tragedy. Maybe if someone had pointed out to her that, like it or not, she is a highborn lady who has a responsibility to her house, she would have been a little more circumspect in what she did and who she consorted with.

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's 8 and he wants to walk again. You can't really chastize him for that man.

I'm not chastising anybody. I'm merely pointing out that in this world, highborns who put themselves above their houses often end up serving the best interests of neither. Bran is a special case because, yes, we cannot blame him for wanting to walk again, and it just may turn out that he ends up serving  an even higher purpose than himself and his house.

Now maybe, if their lives had progressed in a more normal fashion, all of the Stark children would have learned these lessons by the time they entered adulthood, but it seems clear from the actions of the eldest children in particular that they are not even close to understanding this concept -- and that neither Ned nor Catelyn feel any great need to explain it to them, if, indeed, they understand it themselves.

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If you leave the Night's Watch, you are hunted down and executed as a traitor -- barring some extraordinary circumstance like a pardon from the king. If you leave either the Order of Maesters or the Faith, you give up your chain or your robes but there is nothing expressly forbidding you from resuming your old life, although you may face a certain amount of scorn from society.

I don't believe there is a quote or a precedence from the text to confirm this either way, but I would assume that if you decide to leave the Citadel or the Faith, you don't just get to renege on a vow giving up your prior claims.

When you join, you swear a vow renouncing any rights to any claims you may have had. Quitting wouldn't negate that vow.

[John Suburbs]

10 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I don't believe there is a quote or a precedence from the text to confirm this either way, but I would assume that if you decide to leave the Citadel or the Faith, you don't just get to renege on a vow giving up your prior claims.

When you join, you swear a vow renouncing any rights to any claims you may have had. Quitting wouldn't negate that vow.

But they don't hunt you down and kill you like the Night's Watch does. So it is far easier to resume your old life and reclaim your old titles with either the maesters or the faith -- you just can't have both.

Plus, it takes far longer to become a maester or a septon than a watchman, and the chances of getting yourself killed in the process are much lower. So Sam might very well avoid taking any vows for years, maybe even decades, during which time Ser Randyll might die and Sam would still be free to become lord of Horn Hall.

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Didn't he plan to make it look like an accident?

The old "had a hunting accident"