The Blackfish, Catelyn and Jaime

[Joy Hill]

When Brynden Tully and Jaime have their parley, the Blackfish enumerates Jaime's crimes. They are :

-killing Aerys

-having a part in the RW

-not sending Sansa and Arya to Catelyn

These are (at least arguably) unfair accusations. However, there are crimes Jaime is very much guilty of :

-siring the queen's bastards

-pushing Bran out a window

... and he admitted as much to Catelyn at the end of ACOK. And the Blackfish saw Catelyn after that.

It makes sense that Catelyn would not talk about her questions game with Jaime to Robb's bannermen (it might make the deal she struck with him look even worse in their eyes), but the Blackfish had made it clear that he bore her no ill will for releasing Jaime. Wouldn't she have told him "by the way, I finally got confirmation that the Kingslayer was the one who pushed Bran and those rumors about Cersei's kids are totally true"? But then, why did the Blackfish not throw those crimes in Jaime's face?

[Curled Finger]

I've tried to put myself in Cat's position during her travels with Robb and it's not a place I necessarily understand nor sympathize with.   However, I think it had to be shame that prevented Cat from relaying the information Jamie gave her.   Sure it's easy to say well, she was already in as much trouble as she could be in simply letting Jamie go, but to knowingly allow a man who attempted to kill her son go to return her daughters is well on its way to becoming absurd.   As I recall Blackfish was the only person Cat could seek any solace at all in--why alienate that last tether to Robb and the Northmen with insult upon injury?   

Can you see a good reason for Cat to admit any of this information to her uncle?   

[The Mountain That Flies]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sure it's easy to say well, she was already in as much trouble as she could be in simply letting Jamie go, but to knowingly allow a man who attempted to kill her son go to return her daughters is well on its way to becoming absurd.   

Couldn’t have said it any better. 

[Joy Hill]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I've tried to put myself in Cat's position during her travels with Robb and it's not a place I necessarily understand nor sympathize with.   However, I think it had to be shame that prevented Cat from relaying the information Jamie gave her.   Sure it's easy to say well, she was already in as much trouble as she could be in simply letting Jamie go, but to knowingly allow a man who attempted to kill her son go to return her daughters is well on its way to becoming absurd.   As I recall Blackfish was the only person Cat could seek any solace at all in--why alienate that last tether to Robb and the Northmen with insult upon injury?   

Can you see a good reason for Cat to admit any of this information to her uncle?   

Not exactly a good reason, but from the time they meet in the Vale the Blackfish seems to act as a confident to Cat (this was also the case when she was a child). And I always had this feeling that Brynden would always be on Cat's side, no matter what (after Jaime's release he hugs her in a room full of angry lords and never says a word of reproach for comitting treason, whereas he bullies Edmure for not being a mind reader).

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Sure it's easy to say well, she was already in as much trouble as she could be in simply letting Jamie go, but to knowingly allow a man who attempted to kill her son go to return her daughters is well on its way to becoming absurd. 

We literally know that Jaime was planning to actually return her daughters. Obviously, it was not so absurb. Also, doing anything in your power to save your children is never absurb, she simply had very few options. To say she just let Jaime go is also not true, she sent him shackled with Brienne. Not only do I understand Cat, I may do the same as her if my options were as limited as hers were. I would literally do anything to save my loved ones, even if they were not politically sound decisons.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

We literally know that Jaime was planning to actually return her daughters. Obviously, it was not so absurb. Also, doing anything in your power to save your children is never absurb, she simply had very few options. To say she just let Jaime go is also not true, she sent him shackled with Brienne. Not only do I understand Cat, I may do the same as her if my options were as limited as hers were. I would literally do anything to save my loved ones, even if they were not politically sound decisons.

I get that completely.  My statement about being absurd goes to Cat's possible shame.   We know a lot more than she knew.  Our OP wonders why she didn't share Jamie's confessions with her uncle.  This shame is why I suppose she didn't tell him is all.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

Not exactly a good reason, but from the time they meet in the Vale the Blackfish seems to act as a confident to Cat (this was also the case when she was a child). And I always had this feeling that Brynden would always be on Cat's side, no matter what (after Jaime's release he hugs her in a room full of angry lords and never says a word of reproach for comitting treason, whereas he bullies Edmure for not being a mind reader).

I thought about Cat recalling the closeness she shared with her uncle when she was small.   Could be the Blackfish would have taken it all in without reproach.  She had at least 1 good reason for not saying anything.   The other scene I recalled reading the OP was when Jon says goodbye to Bran and she is so mean to him.    Jon turns around and tells Robb a lie about the encounter.    He says she was kind or something like that when we read she was mean.  Jon had his reasons for not telling Robb the truth, too.   It could be as simple as she just didn't believe Jamie.  Adults are not as trusting as children.  

I do think Cat was cracking at this point amid her grief and horror at loosing her entire family.   Perhaps she didn't want to alienate one of the very few people left to her?   

[Joy Hill]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I thought about Cat recalling the closeness she shared with her uncle when she was small.   Could be the Blackfish would have taken it all in without reproach.  She had at least 1 good reason for not saying anything.   The other scene I recalled reading the OP was when Jon says goodbye to Bran and she is so mean to him.    Jon turns around and tells Robb a lie about the encounter.    He says she was kind or something like that when we read she was mean.  Jon had his reasons for not telling Robb the truth, too.   It could be as simple as she just didn't believe Jamie.  Adults are not as trusting as children.  

I do think Cat was cracking at this point amid her grief and horror at loosing her entire family.   Perhaps she didn't want to alienate one of the very few people left to her?   

Damn, I forgot that most discussions about Catelyn end up making me feel depressed.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

Damn, I forgot that most discussions about Catelyn end up making me feel depressed.

I'm no Cat fan by any stretch of the imagination.   That said, her story is a deep study in grief.  There are happier POVs and stories, but reading Cat makes me very grateful that I haven't faced the obstacles she faced.   If nothing else, she's got to make you want to find a little kid and hug her/him with all you've got.    Go back and read @Lord of Raventree Hall reply to me.  There is strength and conviction in those words.   Love resounds.   Go hug a little kid, Joy Hill...you will feel better!

[Cridefea]

I can't imagine Blackfish keeping that information for himself. If Cat have told him what Jaime did she would have risked her plan to free Sansa and Arya. She had to be cautious. And there was also the dagger problem, iirc Cat was beginning to understand what happened, she knew there was something unclear. Even if I really don't love Cat, I think she did the right thing.

[Joy Hill]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm no Cat fan by any stretch of the imagination.   That said, her story is a deep study in grief.  There are happier POVs and stories, but reading Cat makes me very grateful that I haven't faced the obstacles she faced.   If nothing else, she's got to make you want to find a little kid and hug her/him with all you've got.    Go back and read @Lord of Raventree Hall reply to me.  There is strength and conviction in those words.   Love resounds.   Go hug a little kid, Joy Hill...you will feel better!

No small children available at this very moment, but a kitten will do. 

I rather like Cat, but I can see why some people find her frustrating.

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

I can't imagine Blackfish keeping that information for himself. 

[Stormking902]

Cat is a moron who believes she is politically pretty savy when almost every action she does is a political suicide, arresting Tyrion is idiotic, letting Tyrion go is idiotic as F, telling Ned to trust a man you haven't spent time with in YEARS is dumb, letting Jamie go is just INSANELY dumb, killing jinglebells or wah ever his name is was dumb and cost her her life, the list goes on. 

To think Hoster raised her to be his heir untill he had Edmure late in life makes me even question how competent Hoster was, Cat and her sister are both just really well dumb lol, the only good advice she gave I can think of is telling Robb that his bannerman are NOT his friends and to NOT send Theon home to treat with balon. 

[Springwatch]

It doesn't really matter if Cat told Brynden or not. Cat has consistently been repelled by warfare, and the Blackfish is a level-headed guy who's not going to rush into a battle for the sake of it. Brynden came out onto the battlements to negotiate (a tough negotiation, sure) - neither he nor Cat want to fight to the last man.

What Jaime did to Bran is enough to spark a raging blood feud that could last generations - if that became public, negotiation would be impossible, because a ruling House is supposed to defend and avenge the lives of its people. If it can't do that even for a son of the House, it's game over, the illusion of leadership collapses and anarchy begins.

[Joy Hill]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It doesn't really matter if Cat told Brynden or not. Cat has consistently been repelled by warfare, and the Blackfish is a level-headed guy who's not going to rush into a battle for the sake of it. Brynden came out onto the battlements to negotiate (a tough negotiation, sure) - neither he nor Cat want to fight to the last man.

What Jaime did to Bran is enough to spark a raging blood feud that could last generations - if that became public, negotiation would be impossible, because a ruling House is supposed to defend and avenge the lives of its people. If it can't do that even for a son of the House, it's game over, the illusion of leadership collapses and anarchy begins.

I don't think Brynden has any intention to negociate. When Jaime asks him if there are any terms he'll agree to, he says no. He throws the smallfolk out of Riverrun and scours the riverlands (which means they'll die of starvation) and doesn't bat an eyelash at Edmure's fate, he's very much willing to fight to the last man IMO.

But I agree that Cat wanted to stop the war, which is what might have stopped her from confiding to the Blackfish what Jaime told her.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/30/2017 at 5:23 AM, Curled Finger said:

I'm no Cat fan by any stretch of the imagination.   That said, her story is a deep study in grief.  There are happier POVs and stories, but reading Cat makes me very grateful that I haven't faced the obstacles she faced.   If nothing else, she's got to make you want to find a little kid and hug her/him with all you've got.    Go back and read @Lord of Raventree Hall reply to me.  There is strength and conviction in those words.   Love resounds.   Go hug a little kid, Joy Hill...you will feel better!

Thanks Curled Finger^^

On 12/30/2017 at 8:37 AM, Stormking902 said:

Cat is a moron who believes she is politically pretty savy when almost every action she does is a political suicide, arresting Tyrion is idiotic, letting Tyrion go is idiotic as F, telling Ned to trust a man you haven't spent time with in YEARS is dumb, letting Jamie go is just INSANELY dumb, killing jinglebells or wah ever his name is was dumb and cost her her life, the list goes on. 

To think Hoster raised her to be his heir untill he had Edmure late in life makes me even question how competent Hoster was, Cat and her sister are both just really well dumb lol, the only good advice she gave I can think of is telling Robb that his bannerman are NOT his friends and to NOT send Theon home to treat with balon. 

....You know she didn't let the Imp go right? I just want to make sure you can tell the difference between Catelyn and Lysa. They are in fact, different characters entirely. Shall we also blame Renly and Stannis for Robert's lack of leadership? Telling someone to trusf your childhood friend is literally human nature. I would automatically trust my childhood friends, without thinking. Are you such a cynical person you would not? Arresting Tyrion was arguably a bad move? I am fairly convinced there were already plans in motiob to remove Robert from the throne. I since Eddard was in trouble either way. If she had gone to Riverrun instead of the Eyrie (at the time was certainly the worse option) things may have ended bery differently (exchanging Eddard and Tyrion, ect). Again, as I said before, letting Jaime go was one made with emotion and not one thought out logically. It was the only way she could think to get Arya and Sansa back. Again, I like to think most parents would do this. If you wouldn't do anything in your power to get your children back, perhaps you have never been a parent. Killing Jinglebells did not cost her her life. She was losing it, Walder had planned to hold her hostage. She had lots of good advice. She was the one who suggested meeting and treating with Renly. She also had good advice for Renly and Stannis when she was in the south. She said not to send Theon, which is honestly the move that cost Robb the war. She repeatedly gave Robb good advice with his bannermen. She advised Edmure to let Tywin pass, which was supposbly the same idea Robb had, which he yells at Edmure for. No one takes her good advice admittedly, but she gave a lot pf it. And lets compare this to other characters and their repeated mistakes. Eddard, Robb himself, Stannis, Balon idiot Greyjoy - They all made many mistakes as well. Yet none earn the vehement hate of the fandom. I am so tired of acting like Catelyn tore down everything on her own. Eddard could have easily made substantially better decisions and ended the war before it even began. Robb could have kept the Karstarks and Freys with better decisions.Say send Rickard Karstark as far away from the hostages as possible! Don't marry some girl that ruins your alliance. I'm done and I'm sorry to everyone who is tired of my defenses of Catelyn. I will however, keep defending her. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Thanks Curled Finger^^

 

There is nothing wrong with defending a character you feel strongly about.  I occasionally feel cheated in the experience by not seeing in some characters what others do.   We cannot really choose what speaks to us.  

On 12/30/2017 at 2:25 AM, Springwatch said:

It doesn't really matter if Cat told Brynden or not. Cat has consistently been repelled by warfare, and the Blackfish is a level-headed guy who's not going to rush into a battle for the sake of it. Brynden came out onto the battlements to negotiate (a tough negotiation, sure) - neither he nor Cat want to fight to the last man.

What Jaime did to Bran is enough to spark a raging blood feud that could last generations - if that became public, negotiation would be impossible, because a ruling House is supposed to defend and avenge the lives of its people. If it can't do that even for a son of the House, it's game over, the illusion of leadership collapses and anarchy begins.

Heck yeah.   When you really take it all apart from the beginning these acts were hugely compromising to many.   Jamie pushes -- no, let's back that up-- Jamie and Cersei have a secret tryst at Winterfell.   What would have happened if say Maester Luwin found them instead of Bran?  Robb?  Ned?  Cat? Let's say Luwin comes through the door, not a window--what is Jamie's response?   Yah, with a little imagination this thing can get so much worse.  

Did Cat really have to take Tyrion hostage even if she believed him to be guilty of pushing Bran?  I remember Ned calling for Tywin to report to answer for Gregor's crimes in the Riverlands.  Surely there is a process for trying people that compels the accused to participate?  Surely Catelyn didn't have to physically take possession of the Imp?  

@Stormking902--I don't think Cat or Lysa are stupid.   I think some of their actions are questionable and I think Lysa is mentally ill, but not morons.    They made some very bad moves, but the original creep/jerk/criminal here were Jamie and Cersei Lannister.  How foolish is that to have a tryst at your enemy's home?   Then attempt to kill their child?   Jamie and Cersei both need to be accountable for this 1st and 2nd strike against the Starks. 

Our friend Springwatch here has made a very important points about blood feuds.   Well done. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Thanks Curled Finger^^

....You know she didn't let the Imp go right? I just want to make sure you can tell the difference between Catelyn and Lysa. They are in fact, different characters entirely. Shall we also blame Renly and Stannis for Robert's lack of leadership? Telling someone to trusf your childhood friend is literally human nature. I would automatically trust my childhood friends, without thinking. Are you such a cynical person you would not? Arresting Tyrion was arguably a bad move? I am fairly convinced there were already plans in motiob to remove Robert from the throne. I since Eddard was in trouble either way. If she had gone to Riverrun instead of the Eyrie (at the time was certainly the worse option) things may have ended bery differently (exchanging Eddard and Tyrion, ect). Again, as I said before, letting Jaime go was one made with emotion and not one thought out logically. It was the only way she could think to get Arya and Sansa back. Again, I like to think most parents would do this. If you wouldn't do anything in your power to get your children back, perhaps you have never been a parent. Killing Jinglebells did not cost her her life. She was losing it, Walder had planned to hold her hostage. She had lots of good advice. She was the one who suggested meeting and treating with Renly. She also had good advice for Renly and Stannis when she was in the south. She said not to send Theon, which is honestly the move that cost Robb the war. She repeatedly gave Robb good advice with his bannermen. She advised Edmure to let Tywin pass, which was supposbly the same idea Robb had, which he yells at Edmure for. No one takes her good advice admittedly, but she gave a lot pf it. And lets compare this to other characters and their repeated mistakes. Eddard, Robb himself, Stannis, Balon idiot Greyjoy - They all made many mistakes as well. Yet none earn the vehement hate of the fandom. I am so tired of acting like Catelyn tore down everything on her own. Eddard could have easily made substantially better decisions and ended the war before it even began. Robb could have kept the Karstarks and Freys with better decisions.Say send Rickard Karstark as far away from the hostages as possible! Don't marry some girl that ruins your alliance. I'm done and I'm sorry to everyone who is tired of my defenses of Catelyn. I will however, keep defending her. 

Telling someone to trust your childhood friend, immediately after telling that same person not to trust their childhood friend is not human nature, it is extremely hypocritical.