Varysblackfyre321

Did Robb act better than Tywin conducting the war?

214 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I don't think there is any reason to believe that Robb's men would behave any better than Tywin's either. There's no doubt that these vile acts are being committed by both Lion and Wolf.

The question brought up by the OP however, was regarding the leaders of these men, and whether Robb acted better than Tywin.

Like I've stated, I don't believe this is even a debatable issue. IMHO, anyone claiming that Robb acted as unethically as Tywin, lacks even a rudimentary understanding of the characters and the story as written by GRRM, or is simply trolling.

 

Oh I agree, I was just posting generally since the idea that the campaign in the West was a tame affair comes up quite a lot in threads like this. 

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20 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Tywin orders his men to rape and pillage in order to draw Ned out.

He orders his men to burn everything in their attacks on the riverlands, hell not even take anything just burn it. Which is why the villagers and Ned suspected they weren't the typical raiders  I don't remember using the word rape in any of his orders to the Moutain. Can be wrong if so, someone please correct me.

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Tywin approved the Red Wedding in secret yet does not take any credit for it publicly. He does not want it associated with his legacy.

After Gregor raped and killed Elia Tywin claims he did not order it, yet he does nothing to punish the man responsible.  Then after Lorch dies he tells Oberyn Lorch was the one who did it.

When Rickard Karstark killed unarmed prisoners AND the men guarding them Robb executes him and his accomplices for committing the war crime. 

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4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He orders his men to burn everything in their attacks on the riverlands, hell not even take anything just burn it. Which is why the villagers and Ned suspected they weren't the typical raiders  I don't remember using the word rape in any of his orders to the Moutain. Can be wrong if so, someone please correct me.

No, you're correct, here's the passage:

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IX

Quote

"Let them," Lord Tywin said. "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork."

"They " will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan said,  rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door.

When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. "Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like—goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest."

He may not have specifically stated to rape, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to when you are sending these type of men out with those orders. Tywin is fully aware of the methods used by his men, and that's the reason they are in his service, and he clearly intends for these types of atrocities to be committed, including rape.

Also, when he includes women in the list of things Tyrion's savages are free to take, I'm quite sure he didnt mean to take as their honored and respected wives.

Obviously, as supported by the text, the acts being committed by Tywin's men are unnecessary extremes that go far beyond what you would expect to see from the typical soldier raiding and pillaging in times of war, and clearly by Tywin's will.

Another quote confirming the excessive brutality that is Tywin's methods:

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Quote

 

Catelyn knew Ser Gregor's evil reputation, yet still . . .<snip>

"True enough," Ser Brynden admitted. "And Tywin Lannister is no man's fool. He sits safe behind the walls of Harrenhal, feeding his host on our harvest and burning what he does not take. Gregor is not the only dog he's loosed. Ser Amory Lorch is in the field as well, and some sellsword out of Qohor who'd sooner maim a man than kill him. I've seen what they leave behind them. Whole villages put to the torch, women raped and mutilated, butchered children left unburied to draw wolves and wild dogs . . . it would sicken even the dead."

 

Cateyln knows the reputation of Tywin's go to enforcer. Tywin is no man's fool, he knows what he's ordering when he sends Gregor out to set the Riverlands afire.

Brynden is disgusted, and certainly is not speaking as if these are the types of acts that are common in times of war, or anything he would do, or would allow to happen while he was around.

---

I guess anyone arguing that Robb has acted in such a disgusting and unethical manner as shown here by Tywin, can now provide the quotes to back their accusations, and we can compare.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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4 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

He may not have specifically stated to rape, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't need to when you are sending these type of men out with those orders. Tywin is fully aware of the methods used by his men, and that's the reason they are in his service, and he clearly intends for these types of atrocities to be committed, including rape.

 

But he also doesn't order them to-just expects they would if they sent them-which act the way soldiers sent to destroy things in civilian populated tend to do.  He didn't kid himself about it nor did he relish in it,he recognized the hill clans could be useful here so he sent them.  

We agree Robb knew such things would happen when he sent his soldiers out to raid correct?  How is that really worse?

4 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Brynden is disgusted, and certainly is not speaking as if these are the types of acts that are common in times of war, or anything he would do, or would allow to happen while he was around.

Or he's slightly biased to the atrocities his side's enemies commit, rape, murder, and even smallfolk villages being destroyed  are to be expected in these type of large scale wars in feudal society. 

What does he think when  northern soldiers get up to when doing their raiding? Of course he knows but when it's the other side what is common for both is especially egregious. Like remember the reaction at KL for the battle of BW? Pure horror at what had happened was feigned as if taking the enemy unawares was especially horrific.

Sorry this may seem off topic but this kinda reminds of Ned showing disgust of how Tywin conducted the sack of king's Landing. What did Ned think soldiers did when they take a city? You can't really control men pumped on adrenalin after they take such a prize. Looting,Rapes, and murder are bound to happen. Hell when Stannis comes to take KL just about everyone agrees such things will happen, Stannis will not order it(for he despises such things), but he's accepted as necessary consequences for getting the throne.

I don't think Tywin acted in unethical or disgusting manner given his context-excluding man the RW. They both acted the way feudal lords do when waging war with each other.  

Also, Robb doesn't have any chastizement for Bolton having taken on the monsters that his uncle showed horror at.

And Bernie Mac has pointed out the odds of them having not been aware is about nill.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

When Rickard Karstark killed unarmed prisoners AND the men guarding them Robb executes him and his accomplices for committing the war crime. 

Well he had to. The Lannisters had his sister and many other Northern hostages while he was in desperate need of regaining the Freys. There were pragmatic reasons for doing what he did, though I maintain executing Rickard was just dumb. 

 

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Cateyln knows the reputation of Tywin's go to enforcer. Tywin is no man's fool, he knows what he's ordering when he sends Gregor out to set the Riverlands afire.

As does Robb when he wants to pay back the Lannisters in kind. He is not strong enough to take Lannisport, Casterly Rock or the other well fortified settlements but needs to draw Twyin's attention (if that genuinely was his plan).  Robb, like Tywin, was using Chevauchée as a tactic to lure his opponent away. 

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Brynden is disgusted, and certainly is not speaking as if these are the types of acts that are common in times of war, or anything he would do, or would allow to happen while he was around.

Of course he is, the Riverlands is his homeland. The same is true of Lancel when he hears of Robb's attacks. The same is true of any war, soldiers will always be disgusted at what the enemy does even if they are doing similar things themselves. 

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

---I guess anyone arguing that Robb has acted in such a disgusting and unethical manner as shown here by Tywin, can now provide the quotes to back their accusations, and we can compare.

Already have done. 

Why do you think Northmen were happy enough to rape and pillage from their allies in the Riverlands but were not doing the same to their enemies in the Westerlands?

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I'm really don't to tie up, since there's no doubt that Tywin let loose a cruel man with a company of soldiers that were known for their savagery (the Mountain's men) to terrorize and kill the population, but we really tend to forget that the northmen were considered brutes by southron standards for a reason. Robb can't deny plunder to their men. He could ask his commanders to refrain from savagery (as today's presidents asks their ministers to behave) but the smallfolk and soldiers that compose his army can't be disciplined all the time. We never learn about the details of the northern Gregor Clegane (Jon Umber: a man whose House is said to sustain traditions that are backwards even for the northmen; and also a dude who had to get bitten by a huge wolf to be "pacified"), we learn that Maege stole sheep (from the smallfolk, and not in a 'we come in peace, and we are confiscating your sheep' fashion I'm sure), and that Glover & Karstark are raiding in the West. My point is that every time you release an army of feudal illiterate men to attack smallfolk settlements and minor cities, cruel deeds are done and Robb is not stupid to not know this.

As for our modern standards, I'd say Robb acted a little more correctly. But we learn that Tywin was locked on dirty playing from the start. I'd say that was our author's aim: putting both on different ethic factions.

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33 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

I'm really don't to tie up, since there's no doubt that Tywin let loose a cruel man with a company of soldiers that were known for their savagery (the Mountain's men) to terrorize and kill the population, but we really tend to forget that the northmen were considered brutes by southron standards for a reason. Robb can't deny plunder to their men. He could ask his commanders to refrain from savagery (as today's presidents asks their ministers to behave) but the smallfolk and soldiers that compose his army can't be disciplined all the time. We never learn about the details of the northern Gregor Clegane (Jon Umber: a man whose House is said to sustain traditions that are backwards even for the northmen; and also a dude who had to get bitten by a huge wolf to be "pacified"), we learn that Maege stole sheep (from the smallfolk, and not in a 'we come in peace, and we are confiscating your sheep' fashion I'm sure), and that Glover & Karstark are raiding in the West. My point is that every time you release an army of feudal illiterate men to attack smallfolk settlements and minor cities, cruel deeds are done and Robb is not stupid to not know this.

As for our modern standards, I'd say Robb acted a little more correctly. But we learn that Tywin was locked on dirty playing from the start. I'd say that was our author's aim: putting both on different ethic factions.

Exactly. The point I don't feel is Robb is as evil as Tywin. But both are mostly are following the standard protocol for conducting war in a feudal society. Tywin did step out of bounds with the RW but up to this point I don't see it that he'd done anything that wouldn't be considered exceptionally bad even compared to Robb.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But he also doesn't order them to-just expects they would if they sent them-which act the way soldiers sent to destroy things in civilian populated tend to do.  He didn't kid himself about it nor did he relish in it,he recognized the hill clans could be useful here so he sent them.

No, as clearly shown by the quotes I've provided - as well as GRRM commenting on and setting up Gregor's and the BC's reputations throughout GoT - he expects them to do things far more destructive, brutal, and excessive than average soldiers tend to do.

Quote

We agree Robb knew such things would happen when he sent his soldiers out to raid correct?  How is that really worse?

Lol, absolutely not.

The only quote provided, indicates that Robb's men were raiding and pillaging. That means stealing.

There is absolutely no indication that Robb's men are burning down entire villages, razing the country side, murdering, raping, or maiming, including children.

Is Robb aware that there are bad seeds amongst the soldiers that commit acts that he would not condone? Of course he is. But that is the sad reality of his society and of war in general.

There is a huge difference between sending men from an army which is largely made up of common folk to raid and pillage, than sending specialized sell swords, with heinous reputations of their excessive and brutal ways, to ravish and senselessly destroy and terrorize an entire region.

Quote

Also, Robb doesn't have any chastizement for Bolton having taken on the monsters that his uncle showed horror at.

Of course not, obviously it's better to have these monsters on your side than against you. Did Robb send these men to terrorize the commoners? The Brave Companions were not among the men raiding the Westerlands.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or he's slightly biased to the atrocities his side's enemies commit, rape, murder, and even smallfolk villages being destroyed  are to be expected in these type of large scale wars in feudal society.

I won't deny that he has a biased view here, but he's clearly commenting on the unorthodox methods that these specific groups of men are known for.

GRRM has made a point to show us, on page, how vile and excessive these men are in relation to what is commonly done by soldiers in times of war. If he wanted to impress on us that Robb was acting in a similar manner as Tywin, he would have made a point to emphasize it as he has done with Tywin. You can't just take your head canon, and assume that these atrocities are being committed by Robb's men as well. 

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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58 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

GRRM has made a point to show us, on page, how vile and excessive these men are in relation to what is commonly done by soldiers in times of war. If he wanted to impress on us that Robb was acting in a similar manner as Tywin, he would have made a point to emphasize it as he has done with Tywin. You can't just take your head canon, and assume that these atrocities are being committed by Robb's men as well. 

I very much agree w/ all this, well said.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

nly quote provided, indicates that Robb's men were raiding and pillaging. That means stealing.

 

And while they're raiding, a lot are not going to act like paragons there will not act like paragons, they'll definitely be a lot of farmer daughters besmirched and murders are not going to be just super rare isolated incident or really any abuse on the smallfolk they're stealing from.  Robb would know this.  

 

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Lol, absolutely not.

Ah ok then

 

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Robb aware that there are bad seeds amongst the soldiers that commit acts that he would not condone? Of course he is. But that is the sad reality of his society and of war in genera

 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I won't deny that he has a biased view here, but he's clearly commenting on the unorthodox methods that these specific groups of men are known for.

Again these things would be expected in a large scale war in a feudal society. Rape, murder during raids and even villages getting destroyed. 

Of course not, obviously it's better to have these monsters on your side than against you. Did Robb send these men to terrorize the commoners? The Brave Companions were not among the men raiding the Westerlands,

 

  No they stayed back in the Riverlands and continued doing the same things they did when they were under Tywin the only real difference now being wearing a wolf's cloak rather than a lion. How exactly is that a point in Robb's favor? He knows what this group has done, they're widely known to be guilty of multiple crimes against his own people, Like its not like either hiring them on or let them go, he could have easily ordered Roose to detain and executed these men for the atrocities they've committed again the people Robb rules. Instead he's allowing them to be taken on the pay roll of northern secesion movement to do what they've been doing for Tywin for him

Robb was acting in a similar manner as Tywin, he would have made a point to emphasize it as he has done with Tywin. You can't just take your head canon, and assume that these atrocities are being committed by Robb's men as well. 

We're told time and time again both the Northern soldiers and southern soldiers are doing very much the same exact shit. TBWB makes it very clear they've defending the smallfolk from both sides

6 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

here is a huge difference between sending men from an army which is largely made up of common folk to raid and pillage, than sending specialized sell swords, with heinous reputations of their excessive and brutal ways, to ravish and senselessly destroy and terrorize an entire region.

Yeah one doesn't largely act a pure saint by comparison. Even sending army that's mostly made up of  people with peasant backgrounds. Many farmers' daughters are going to be besmirched,murders by no means are going to be totally isolated incidents. Robb isn't stupid. He knows this type of stuff is going to common not just rare. He doesn't relish in it he accepts it as a consequence for his strategy but will not let it deter him from his path.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

GRRM has made a point to show us, on page, how vile and excessive these men are in relation to what is commonly done by soldiers in times of war. If he wanted to impress on us that Robb was acting in a similar manner as Tywin, he would have made a point to emphasize it as he has done with Tywin.

How exactly could he do that with no POV in the Westerlands? Arya and Brienne are in the Riverlands, they get to see what what has happened there. 

5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

You can't just take your head canon, and assume that these atrocities are being committed by Robb's men as well. 

How is it head cannon? It is made abundantly clear that the Wolves were almost as bad as the Lions to their own allies in the Riverlands. There is quote after quote backing this up. 

"Did you kill them?"
"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."
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"I'd stay well clear of that kingsroad, if I were you," the man went on. "It's worse than bad, I hear. Wolves and lions both, and bands of broken men preying on anyone they can catch."
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"Child," said the singer, "put up that sword, and we'll take you to a safe place and get some food in that belly. There are wolves in these parts, and lions, and worse things. No place for a little girl to be wandering alone."
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"Not so bad as we were. The Huntsman brought in a flock o' sheep, and there's been some trading across the Blackwater. The harvest wasn't burned south o' the river. Course, there's plenty want to take what we got. Wolves one day, Mummers the next. Them that's not looking for food are looking for plunder, or women to rape
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What did they do?" she asked him.

"They put eight people to the sword at Tumbler's Falls," he said. "They wanted the Kingslayer, but he wasn't there so they did some rape and murder." He jerked a thumb toward the corpse with maggots where his manhood ought to be. "That one there did the raping. Now move along."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Was this done at Ser Wilbert's decree?" asked Tom.
A man laughed bitterly. "The lions killed Ser Wilbert a year ago. His sons are all off with the Young Wolf, getting fat in the west. You think they give a damn for the likes of us? It was the Mad Huntsman caught these wolves."
Wolves. Arya went cold. Robb's men, and my father's. She felt drawn toward the cages.
 
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Lem unhooded Gendry. "What is this place?" he asked.
"An old place, deep and secret. A refuge where neither wolves nor lions come prowling."
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Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."
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Brienne felt obligated to pass along that warning to the farmer and his wife. The man nodded as she told him, but when she was done he spat again and said, "Dogs and wolves and lions, may the Others take them all. These outlaws won't dare come too near to Maidenpool. Not so long as Lord Tarly has the rule there."
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"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. His brother 'ud never have hid like that. Ser Myles was bold as brass till that Robert killed him."
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"And how shall he do that, Your Grace? Will he send a knight to walk the roads with every begging brother? Will he give us men to guard our septas against the wolves and lions?"
I will pretend you did not mention lions. "The realm is at war.
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So no, the Wolves atrocities is not just head cannon. GRRM did not have to create a POV for the Westerlands or have ARYA make a 500 mile detour just to point this out as the Northmen's actions in the Riverlands is evidence enough of how they would be treating their actual enemies in the West. 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
"And how shall he do that, Your Grace? Will he send a knight to walk the roads with every begging brother? Will he give us men to guard our septas against the wolves and lions?"
I will pretend you did not mention lions. "The realm is at war.

This really does sum up why the Faith militant have become so problems; the common people had brutalizied by both sides they turned to one of the the only groups that actually that actually promised to do something to make the havoc stop. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And while they're raiding, a lot are not going to act like paragons there will not act like paragons, they'll definitely be a lot of farmer daughters besmirched and murders are not going to be just super rare isolated incident or really any abuse on the smallfolk they're stealing from.  Robb would know this.

Your'e building a strawman here. Have I argued that these types of acts don't occur, or that Robb is not aware of it?

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again these things would be expected in a large scale war in a feudal society. Rape, murder during raids and even villages getting destroyed. 

Again, strawman. I haven't argued or denied that these things you've mentioned are expected in large scale wars in a feudal society. In fact, I've pointed out that this is the case, and that Robb is aware of it.

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No they stayed back in the Riverlands and continued doing the same things they did when they were under Tywin the only real difference now being wearing a wolf's cloak rather than a lion.

As far as I recall, they were tasked with searching for Jaimie, and have not interacted with, or received any orders from Robb at all. Perhaps you'd like to provide a quote where Robb has ordered them to set ablaze all of the commoner's villages and fields throughout the entire region. 

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We're told time and time again both the Northern soldiers and southern soldiers are doing very much the same exact shit. TBWB makes it very clear they've defending the smallfolk from both sides

And again, I've never denied this, nor stated otherwise. And Robb has in no way commanded nor condoned any of the cases of pillaging and murder going on in the Riverlands.

And if I recall correctly, the instances being reported there are second hand accounts of people guessing that the culprits were either lion or wolf, and that these crimes are being committed by smaller bands of men; probably broken off groups of men who were fleeing from a defeat and/or deserters. 

Most of what's happening in the Riverlands is more the aftermath and consequences of a region that has been ravished by war, and not by chevauchee type tactics being employed by either side. 

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He doesn't relish in it he accepts it as a consequence for his strategy but will not let it deter him from his path.

Agreed.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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53 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Your'e building a strawman here. Have I argued that these types of acts don't occur, or that Robb is not aware of it?

You keep citing how there was no direct order from Robb to rape and murder even though everyone knows when sending soldiers out pillage and raid, rape and murderers as well as many other acts of cruelty are going to happen-yet fail to extend this same understanding to Tywin, we don't see him order any of his men to rape and murder, he simply accepts it as a Certianty if he sends them out.

 

53 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Again, strawman. I haven't argued or denied that these things you've mentioned are expected in large scale wars in a feudal society. In fact, I've pointed out that this is

You pointed to Black fish's horror at what Hoat was doing while under Tywyn'sas evidenc of what was he doing was super unorthodox in these types of ward-it's not. Blackfish's reaction seems to be motivated by these wreched things being committed on his side.

56 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

As far as I recall, they were tasked with searching for Jaimie, and have not interacted with, or received any orders from Robb at all.

You recall wrong. They'd been tasked with eliminating any sort of Laninster support in the region. Happening upon Jamie was just good(bad?) luck. And them having no direct contact with Robb absolved Robb how? The northern secesion movement has still put these monsters on their payroll to use them as a weapon to brutalize their enemies...forgetting the horrific things these men have unto his people.

 

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And Robb has in no way commanded nor condoned any of the cases of pillaging and murder going on in the Riverla

I NEVER claimed he did.

53 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And Robb has in no way commanded nor condoned any of the cases of pillaging and murder going on in the Riverlands.

Never claimed he did

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

nd if I recall correctly, the instances being reported there are second hand accounts of people guessing that the culprits were either lion or wolf, and that these crimes are being committed by smaller bands of men; probably broken off groups of men who were fleeing from a defeat and/or deserters.

And now it appears you're trying to absolve the North's soldiers side from all responsibility for its side in the the rape of the Riverland. They were probably deserters, so the movement's hands have to be clean. They weren't no true north man soldiers eh.

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Posted (edited)

 

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You keep citing how there was no direct order from Robb to rape and murder

Yes, because it's a strait up fact. And in fact, there is no evidence that Robb even ordered any pillaging at all. All that's been provided is one quote by a Frey, with a second hand account claiming that Robb's men are raiding along the coast.

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

yet fail to extend this same understanding to Tywin,

That's because Tywin is not just accepting this as an unfortunate side effect of waging war. He is deliberately causing these atrocities to be committed on an excessively extreme and unorthodox scale.

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

we don't see him order any of his men to rape and murder, he simply accepts it as a Certianty if he sends them out.

No, we are given an on page, first account scene of him ordering his men to terrorize an entire region, as well as several accounts of GRRM emphasizing his and his goon's - of which he has hired specifically for this task - brutal and cruel methods throughout the books.

Tywin doesn't just accept it, he expects it and condones it.

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You pointed to Black fish's horror at what Hoat was doing while under Tywyn'sas evidenc of what was he doing was super unorthodox in these types of ward-it's not. Blackfish's reaction seems to be motivated by these wreched things being committed on his side.

BS, a seasoned soldier does not have that type of reaction to the typical raiding you would expect to see during times of war. He is clearly commenting on the methods of these specific men.

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And now it appears you're trying to absolve the North's soldiers side from all responsibility for its side in the the rape of the Riverland. They were probably deserters, so the movement's hands have to be clean. They weren't no true north man soldiers eh.

Not at all. I hold the Northern men fully responsible for their actions. I am pointing out that this is a result of the war by both sides, not a result of Robb's tactical war efforts.

And if you'll notice, I said "by either side." I don't believe these cases where it was both Wolf and Lion ravishing the commoners in the Riverlands, *post engagement with Robb's armies - which is when we start hearing about these incidents  - * was a result of Tywin's tactics either. (*added for clarity, as I see Bernie Mac is attempting to twist my words, and create yet another strawman argument.)

Please don't start using the same methods that your buddy uses, of cutting off portions of my comments, in order to attempt building your own strawman.

Edited by Blackwater Revenant

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Is Robb any better than Tywin?  That's hard to say.  If you put the Starks' back against the wall how will they act?  I am of the opinion that any lord of any house would violate guest rights to save their family from ruin.  So in that sense I believe Robb would perpetrate something as controversial as the Red Wedding to save the Starks. 

We have to be mindful that Cately's abduction of Tyrion Lannister is what started the war.  She abducts Tyrion instead of letting Robert handle the trial to determine if the dwarf was guilty of crippling Bran.

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13 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Is Robb any better than Tywin?  That's hard to say.  If you put the Starks' back against the wall how will they act?  I am of the opinion that any lord of any house would violate guest rights to save their family from ruin.  So in that sense I believe Robb would perpetrate something as controversial as the Red Wedding to save the Starks. 

We have to be mindful that Cately's abduction of Tyrion Lannister is what started the war.  She abducts Tyrion instead of letting Robert handle the trial to determine if the dwarf was guilty of crippling Bran.

You know, I can't help but notice that everytime someone uses the old 'Catelyn started the war' argument they tend to forget the part where Cat tries to avoid any and all interaction with Tyrion at the Inn. She only acts once he recognizes her and even then only because of the risk he poses to her husband and daughters safety.

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17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

Yes, because it's a strait up fact.

Like a river?

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And in fact, there is no evidence that Robb even ordered any pillaging at all.

Yeah, there is. 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

All that's been provided is one quote by a Frey, with a second hand account claiming that Robb's men are raiding along the coast.

Why would he lie to Cat? Why would he be made the commander of the outriders and scouts in the Blacjfish's absence? Why does Edmure or anyone else not tell Cat the truth? Why is it that the author only gives the information of what Robb is doing one source and never mentions it again? Is GRRM deliberately trying to mislead the readers? Is one of the future books going to reveal what Robb was really doing?

You are getting pretty desperate here. The fact that you want to ignore quotes from the book to suit your agenda is incredibly disingenuous. 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

That's because Tywin is not just accepting this as an unfortunate side effect of waging war.

Is he not? Citation for that and citation for how Robb really feels about it?

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

He is deliberately causing these atrocities to be committed on an excessively extreme and unorthodox scale.

As is Robb. As Robb makes clear, he is not strong enough to threaten the Lannisters themselves at Lannisport or Casterly Rock, we hear of how he sneaked past the Golden Tooth rather than face it and nor do we hear him attacking any of the Westerland towns such as Kayce. He is primarily targeting the smallfolk. 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

No, we are given an on page, first account scene of him ordering his men to terrorize an entire region, as well as several accounts of GRRM emphasizing his and his goon's

As does Robb when he heads West. 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

- of which he has hired specifically for this task -   brutal and cruel methods throughout the books.

The same ones that the North gladly hire and who Arya notes are worse under Northern leadership than they are under Tywin?

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

BS, a seasoned soldier does not have that type of reaction to the typical raiding you would expect to see during times of war. He is clearly commenting on the methods of these specific men.

No, he is commenting on his homeland being hurt. Though when push comes to shove he is happy to take all the food and kick the smallfolk out to fend for themselves. 

 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Not at all. I hold the Northern men fully responsible for their actions. I am pointing out that this is a result of the war by both sides, not a result of Robb's tactical war efforts.

So you only want to give credit to Robb for the 'good' things he does but everything bad and its poor Robb, he did not know any better?

Robb was leader of the Northern army for almost a year. If he was oblivious to his soldiers actions then he was not only an idiot but an incompetent commander. What did he think was happening, his soldiers were asking nicely for the peasants of the West to hand over the livestock they needed to live off and the smallfolk were complying? Is that what you imagined happened?

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

And if you'll notice, I said "by either side." I don't believe these cases where it was both Wolf and Lion ravishing the commoners in the Riverlands was a result of Tywin's tactics either.

Earlier You claimed it was. Make up your mind.  It seems once I provided ample evidence of the Wolves actions in the Riverlands you are now backtracking on earlier comments. 

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Don't start using the same methods that your buddy Bernie Mac uses, of cutting off portions of my comments in order to attempt building strawman arguments.

Which strawman arguments, Quote them and I will happily further clarify them for you or is this comment about strawman arguments an actual strawman argument itself? Are you attempting the strawman inception? 

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