Kandrax Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Since Tywin had never given his mad dogs specific orders about pillaging Riverlands, does that means that they could pillage how they like? (Just killing men and livestock, burning crops, and not killing and raping women and children)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 39 minutes ago, Kandrax said: Since Tywin had never given his mad dogs specific orders about pillaging Riverlands, does that means that they could pillage how they like? (Just killing men and livestock, burning crops, and not killing and raping women and children)? Tywin specifically chose Gregor and Amory to do the pillaging (and worse) - and it produced an expected outcome. Tywin knew very well whom he was sending and what will they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 1/1/2018 at 5:00 PM, Blackwater Revenant said: @Adam Yozza I agree with your take on this matter, it's just another case of people having irrational hatred of characters, and twisting the text in a sad attempt to justify that hatred. This thread is ample evidence of such. Interesting fact here. Tywin is sending men to raid the Riverlands, not as a tactic to draw out an opposing army, but to cause senseless destruction in order to display his strength and fury in response to a perceived slight to himself. So I missed a lot of talk here! And a happy new year to all! We don’t know the extent of the Northman’s pillaging of the Westerlands as we never have a POV there, however I don’t see any reason to believe it was less violent or somehow nicer than the pillaging in the Riverlands. You can call it irrational, I certainly don’t like Cat, not sure how anyone does, but I think it’s important to recognize that she did literally start the war. She kidnaps Tyrion without cause or right... she’s not even within the north where she could claim some judicial liege lady status. She’s in the river lands at an inn, and practically blackmails support from the soldiers present with talk about her Father, their liege lord. It is quite clear what she did was outside of any reasonable sense of justice both in her false accusations and her lack of authority. Not only that, but her abduction of Tyrion is the reason why Tywin sends his men to pillage in the first place! Tywin intended to draw Ned out of Kingslanding, thwarted only because Ned had been injured by Jaime. Tywin is a ruthless bastard, but his orders weren’t without reason or just a way of taking out rage on peasants. Cat’s inprisonment of Tyrion not only literally started the war, but undermined Ned’s ability to take power in King’s Landing. It presipitated the death of Robert, Ned’s assault (returning with more evidence of incest), and began a war which her husband and family were completely unprepared for. I don’t see any upside of her capture of the dwarf. Cat’s release of Jaime led to the execution of Lord Karstark and the Karstark men being turned loose on the Riverlands. She did this for her children, the same reason Tywin released his men upon the Riverlands, the release of his child. Am I saying these are morally equivalent, no... but Tywin’s wrongs don’t justify those of the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 7 hours ago, Kandrax said: Since Tywin had never given his mad dogs specific orders about pillaging Riverlands, does that means that they could pillage how they like? (Just killing men and livestock, burning crops, and not killing and raping women and children)? He tells Tyrion that the mountain clansmen can "plunder" women in the Riverlands as much as they want. So he gave specific orders to his men to rape, burn and pillage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 6 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said: Tywin specifically chose Gregor and Amory to do the pillaging (and worse) - and it produced an expected outcome. Tywin knew very well whom he was sending and what will they do. I aggree that he knew what would they do but, he never ordered them and Vargo to rape women and kill children. To avoid any misunderstanding, even though he isn't complete psychopath ( his geniune love for his wife), i still consider him horrible person and dissagre with anyone who says that he isn't evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 12/29/2017 at 8:12 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said: Cat started the war by imprissoning a man for a crime he didn’t commit. First the war starting with or without Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion at the moment it was the most logical course of action she could take given the fact she knows Tyrion would tell his family (who are scheming to do something really bad), to move it up and try to take out Ned and the girls; this buys the north more time as well provide them a hostage to ransom if/when things go sour. I couldn’t disagree more... maybe the war was inevitible, maybe not. What we know is the reason it began, Cat’s kidnapping of an innocent Tyrion. There is no reason to believe if she let Tyrion continue on his way it would somehow have been disastrous. Quote She blamed a boy for being born a bastard. She hated what Jon represented: Ned thinking a bastard being as good as her trueborn children. If he had been given to a bannerman to raise away from winterfell she wouldn't have minded if Ned made sure he was well cared forCommitted treason by releasing a POW, resulting in open revolt. To save her daughters And the list goes on... and then she comes back from the dead to blame everyone but herself! Sorry I think it’s wrong to blame a child for who their parents are, and wrong to think a kid isn’t “as good” because he’s a bastard. It’s one of the fundamental lessons of the whole series, it’s wrong to blame children for the sins of their parents. Letting Jaime go was treason, plane and simple. It was a selfish and desperate attempt to save her daughters which cost the lives of many others, including those she and her family are supposed to be responsible for. We can sympathize with the plight of a mother, but not rationalize this disastrous action. But ive gotten sidetracked by Cat... and will try to get back to Rob/Tywin, the subject at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said: He tells Tyrion that the mountain clansmen can "plunder" women in the Riverlands as much as they want. So he gave specific orders to his men to rape, burn and pillage. He said they(mountain clansmen) can , not that they must. 9 minutes ago, Kandrax said: I aggree that he knew what would they do but, he never ordered them and Vargo to rape women and kill children. To avoid any misunderstanding, even though he isn't complete psychopath ( his geniune love for his wife), i still consider him horrible person and dissagre with anyone who says that he isn't evil. I'm still wondering why Tywin hired Lord Vargo when Gregor, Lorch and even his others bannermen were enough for pillaging Riverlands and when he hired Hoat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, Kandrax said: He said they(mountain clansmen) can , not that they must. And yet he ordered Vargo Hoat, The Mountain and Amory Lorch that they must burn and pillage. It was mandatory, not a matter of choice. "Set the Riverlands on fire", something like that was the quote. And what do you think does mean when you tell the clansmen that they are free to rape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 44 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said: And yet he ordered Vargo Hoat, The Mountain and Amory Lorch that they must burn and pillage. It was mandatory, not a matter of choice. "Set the Riverlands on fire", something like that was the quote. And what do you think does mean when you tell the clansmen that they are free to rape? That if they want to rape they can do that but, if they don't want then no problem. And i aggre that he ordered mad dogs to burn and pillage but he never ordered them to rape anyone, even though he expected that they would. I'm not defending him. I still consider him responsible, as their comandeer, for his man actions. PS: Any quote where he orders them to rape , not burn and pillage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 So after you wrote this: 8 hours ago, Kandrax said: Since Tywin had never given his mad dogs specific orders about pillaging Riverlands which is proven to be wrong, now you decided to be picky about what "allowed to rape" means? Never mind. Maybe someone who would bother to search a quote in the books can find such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Tywin was against Taco Tuesday. You'll find nary a quote in which he supports it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Revenant Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: And there it is. The instant victory move in any internet debate-call the opposition a troll especially if they're expressing an opinion that doesn't line up with a majority. Ha, you do see there is a fundamental flaw with this statement? In order for this accusation to hold any ground, you would need be winning this debate. So far, all you've done is make accusatory assumptions against Robb, without providing a single shred of evidence which isn't completely irrelevant to the accusations you are making, or only supporting a strawman argument. Quote Alright if you disagree with my opinion, ok I don't expect everyone to share my views but it's blantantly disgusting to insinuate they aren't really genuine because they don't line up with yours. Here again, you are incorrectly assuming what my motivations were for suggesting that your argument was disingenuous. It had nothing to do with your stance, and everything to do with you making a comment directly conflicting with the argument you have put forth. Listen, I greatly respect your and everyone's right to voice their own opinion, however contrary to that of my own. And I appreciate the discussion to be had with others that don't agree with me. That's what we're all here for after all, isn't it? Honestly, I was only trying to make a point on the comment you made, not to accuse you of trolling. I mean, there is a reason I have not cut off discussion with you as I have with another forum member here who has shared the same view as you; Aside from maintaining a position that I feel is unequivocally unsupported by the text, I don't feel that you have conducted yourself in the manner that is indicative of a troll. As you maintain that your argument is sincere, which I do tend to believe, I extend to you my sincerest apologies for the insinuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Tywin was against Taco Tuesday. You'll find nary a quote in which he supports it. Ahh that evil, evil man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 7 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: So after you wrote this: which is proven to be wrong, now you decided to be picky about what "allowed to rape" means? Never mind. Maybe someone who would bother to search a quote in the books can find such. Here is quote Quote Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.” No mentions of rape. I want to know how would Tywin reacts, if mad dogs killed grown men and livestock, burned crops and houses, and spared women and children of any harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 6 hours ago, Kandrax said: Here is quote No mentions of rape. I want to know how would Tywin reacts, if mad dogs killed grown men and livestock, burned crops and houses, and spared women and children of any harm They didn't spare any women or children, so we'll never know? He never protested about it, that's for sure. He encouraged them to rape women, the mountain clansmen specifically. In the fourth book you see what Tywin's henchmen did in the Riverlands. Practically there is not a crime they didn't commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Revenant Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 hours ago, Kandrax said: Here is quote No mentions of rape. I want to know how would Tywin reacts, if mad dogs killed grown men and livestock, burned crops and houses, and spared women and children of any harm Most likely, he would be in disbelieve, and furious that the men he specifically hired for a task did not live up to the reputation that got them hired in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowy Tends Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 8 hours ago, Kandrax said: No mentions of rape. Oh come on… Please don't tell us that you don't understand the meaning of "set a land afire" when it's an order given to people like Gregor and Vargo whose reputation is well established… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 On January 2, 2018 at 4:21 AM, Buried Treasure said: The northmen who are raping in the riverlands are either Karstark men let loose by their lord when he turned traitor against Robb, or broken men after the red wedding. Neither one is something Robb would have sanctioned, not least because Riverland peasants were his own peasants and it was against his own interests that they were harried. Actually no. The raping and pillaging and murder that had been going on in the Riverlands had been going on well before Karstark murdered Robb's hostages hell before Robb and his generals met to discuss Cats's release of the king-slayerHell when Jamie and Briene go to the inn "Husband" remarks it was likely wolves were the ones to have killed the previous. On January 2, 2018 at 4:21 AM, Buried Treasure said: There is always some level of unauthorised looting and rape in war but Blackfish was in charge of outriders and I consider him competent enough that not much was done without his permission (just as there were rapes at Maidenpool under Tarly but not many as he punished them harshly). He's not going to be with the thousands of soldiers he's over sight of and he can only really do anything if someone reported to him-which no one really will else he get punished by his fellow soldiers. But there are no claims, either from the northern army that was there or angry westerlander lords, that there was widespread raping of peasants or looting of septs, so we must presume Robb did not authorise it of the army under his command. why the hell would the North they broadcast it? They want their side to be seen as the unequivocal good guys and the only bad people are on their enemies side. The westerlands lords wouldn't much care peasants are fair game to all manner of cruelties that would never be condoned being committed on a highborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: They didn't spare any women or children, so we'll never know? He never protested about it, that's for sure. He encouraged them to rape women, the mountain clansmen specifically. In the fourth book you see what Tywin's henchmen did in the Riverlands. Practically there is not a crime they didn't commit. I aggre that he encouraged them and that he is responsible for their actions. I dissagre with anyone who claims that he isn't evil. Tywin, despite not being psychopath (his love for his wife), is horrible man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 17 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said: So far, all you've done is make accusatory assumptions against Robb, without providing a single shred of evidence which isn't completely irrelevant to the accusations you are making, or only supporting a strawman argument. What accusatory assumptions? Quote me 17 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said: Ha, you do see there is a fundamental flaw with this statement? In order for this accusation to hold any ground, you would need be winning this debate. Its not an accusation as much as it is a maxim. Some People on the Internet throw at the word troll if they feel it discredits everything they had to say. And they take it as a victory. 17 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said: ere again, you are incorrectly assuming what my motivations were for suggesting that your argument was disingenuous. It had nothing to do with your stance, and everything to do with you making a comment directly conflicting with the argument you have put forth. Ok you need to be more specific. How does my comment conflict with any arguement I have put forth. e from maintaining a position that I feel is unequivocally unsupported by the text What exactly do you think my position is? If you can specificly quote me where you think I show what you think it is please. Also, you hyperfixated on the whole troll thing. Can you please respond to the rest of my comment? Also apologies for having mocked you for quoting a comment of mine here again. Sorry for the improperly cropped quotes. Doing this on my phone for some reason is being a bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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